This is not the place for intelligent debate

[MariaG]

I thought I was the only one who did that!

Though I must admit, I have posted many things that should have been erased.

You and me both Mickey. You and me both

 

[estesbob]

I thought I was the only one who did that!

Though I must admit, I have posted many things that should have been erased.

Well i have posted many things the Moderators have erased. One time they even erased me(for a week)

 

[Mickey]

One time they even erased me(for a week)

:bigyikes:

 

[JoeyWarren]

Well i have posted many things the Moderators have erased. One time they even erased me(for a week)

Yep I got erased for a whole week, but so did Sanduskey, we both tangled a while back.

What is the difference between Mainline Protestant and Evangelical?

I just assumed if you were not Catholic, you were Protestant…

 

[Contarini]

Yep I got erased for a whole week, but so did Sanduskey, we both tangled a while back.

What is the difference between Mainline Protestant and Evangelical?

I just assumed if you were not Catholic, you were Protestant…

What about the Orthodox?

Actually, one of my problems with this map is their sharp distinction between “mainline” and “evangelical,” when in fact many mainliners are evangelicals.

“Mainline Protestants” are members of relatively liberal denominations that are organizationally (not necessarily doctrinally) the mainstream representatives of their traditions (as opposed to groups that split off as a conservative protest, often to conserve, at least allegedly, more traditional views). There are seven particularly large and representative mainline denominations:

The United Methodist Church
The Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A.
The American Baptist Churches USA
The Episcopal Church
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
The Christian Church-Disciples of Christ
The United Church of Christ

There are other smaller (often ethnic) groups that could also be classed as mainline.

The UMC and the PCUSA are both the result of mergers between northern and southern branches of their traditions (actually in the case of the UMC that was one merger back–the most recent merger was between the Methodists and a denomination with similar theology but coming from a German ethnic background). The American Baptists are the Northern branch of the Baptists. The Southern Baptists–the largest Protestant denomination at this point–are not included as “mainliners” (even though socially, numerically, and historically they fill that role as much as the ABC) because they are more conservative. The ELCA is the result of a series of mergers bringing together local “synods,” often with different ethnic backgrounds. The UCC is the result of a merger among several groups, including German Reformed and Congregationalists.

“Mainline” denominations tend to have a very “broad tent,” tolerating everything from extreme liberalism to moderate conservatism (extreme conservatives are either made to feel unwelcome, or more likely just choose to leave because by definition they aren’t going to hang out with people they consider heretics). The UCC is probably the most liberal, but all the denominations have conservatives within them. In the South, mainline denominations are going to be the “liberal” churches in town, but at the same time most congregations are going to be much more conservative than the national average for that denomination.

Evangelicals can exist within or outside the mainline denominations. They hold to basic Christian orthodoxy (as in the Apostles’ Creed) and they emphasize the authority of Scripture and personal conversion. Dogmatic evangelicals who insist on separating from those with whom they disagree are referred to as “fundamentalists” (some would classify fundamentalists as a form of evangelicals, others would say they are completely separate–it’s a matter of definition and there’s no clear line between the two groups, just as there’s no clear line on the other side between evangelicals and other Protestants).

A further classification (and the reason I said “other” rather than just “liberal” Protestants in the last sentence) is conservative confessional Protestants. These often overlap with evangelicals and even with fundamentalists, but they emphasize doctrine and tradition rather than personal experience, and they lack the anti-intellectualism characteristic of fundamentalism (and of much evangelicalism).

I know this is confusing, but I’m afraid that’s the way things are!

Edwin

 

[JoeyWarren]

What about the Orthodox?

After interacting with one (assuming you mean EOC ) at Baptistboard.com I would group them with Catholics.

 

[JoeyWarren]

I would include Episcopal with the Catholics…

 

[rr1213]

…Actually, one of my problems with this map is their sharp distinction between “mainline” and “evangelical,” when in fact many mainliners are evangelicals…I know this is confusing, but I’m afraid that’s the way things are!

Edwin

Good points. The map is a neat illustration but, like many such illustrations, things have been grossly simplified. Not that the three classifications that are referenced there do not exist but, as you noted, real life is a bit more complex.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Well, there have been plenty of atheists here that have been truly venomous toward Christ and his church. Yet they are tolerated and have not been banned from the forum time and again.

Possibly jousting is not your forte?

 

[MariaG]

What about the Orthodox?

Actually, one of my problems with this map is their sharp distinction between “mainline” and “evangelical,” when in fact many mainliners are evangelicals.

“Mainline Protestants” are members of relatively liberal denominations that are organizationally (not necessarily doctrinally) the mainstream representatives of their traditions (as opposed to groups that split off as a conservative protest, often to conserve, at least allegedly, more traditional views). There are seven particularly large and representative mainline denominations:

The United Methodist Church
The Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A.
The American Baptist Churches USA
The Episcopal Church
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
The Christian Church-Disciples of Christ
The United Church of Christ

There are other smaller (often ethnic) groups that could also be classed as mainline.

The UMC and the PCUSA are both the result of mergers between northern and southern branches of their traditions (actually in the case of the UMC that was one merger back–the most recent merger was between the Methodists and a denomination with similar theology but coming from a German ethnic background). The American Baptists are the Northern branch of the Baptists. The Southern Baptists–the largest Protestant denomination at this point–are not included as “mainliners” (even though socially, numerically, and historically they fill that role as much as the ABC) because they are more conservative. The ELCA is the result of a series of mergers bringing together local “synods,” often with different ethnic backgrounds. The UCC is the result of a merger among several groups, including German Reformed and Congregationalists.

“Mainline” denominations tend to have a very “broad tent,” tolerating everything from extreme liberalism to moderate conservatism (extreme conservatives are either made to feel unwelcome, or more likely just choose to leave because by definition they aren’t going to hang out with people they consider heretics). The UCC is probably the most liberal, but all the denominations have conservatives within them. In the South, mainline denominations are going to be the “liberal” churches in town, but at the same time most congregations are going to be much more conservative than the national average for that denomination.

Evangelicals can exist within or outside the mainline denominations. They hold to basic Christian orthodoxy (as in the Apostles’ Creed) and they emphasize the authority of Scripture and personal conversion. Dogmatic evangelicals who insist on separating from those with whom they disagree are referred to as “fundamentalists” (some would classify fundamentalists as a form of evangelicals, others would say they are completely separate–it’s a matter of definition and there’s no clear line between the two groups, just as there’s no clear line on the other side between evangelicals and other Protestants).

A further classification (and the reason I said “other” rather than just “liberal” Protestants in the last sentence) is conservative confessional Protestants. These often overlap with evangelicals and even with fundamentalists, but they emphasize doctrine and tradition rather than personal experience, and they lack the anti-intellectualism characteristic of fundamentalism (and of much evangelicalism).

I know this is confusing, but I’m afraid that’s the way things are!

Edwin

Interesting. I always thought that mainline and evangelical was a more of a distinction of Sacramental and non-sacramental.

Thanks for the info.

God bless,
Maria

 

[Contarini]

Interesting. I always thought that mainline and evangelical was a more of a distinction of Sacramental and non-sacramental.

“Evangelical” unfortunately does often mean less sacramental, though folks like me are trying to change that; but among Lutherans and (to some extent) Reformed the more staunchly confessional traditions are often more sacramental, so you can’t necessarily say that mainline folks are *more *sacramental.

There’s a growing interest in the sacraments among evangelicals. But generally speaking, the influence of 19th-century revivalism (which deeply shaped American evangelicalism) tends to work against the sacraments. So you’re right up to a point; the two main caveats I’d make are

1. As I said, confessional churches are often very sacramental (though not necessarily “evangelical” in the revivalist sense–in fact they may be hostile to this); and
2. All the older Protestant traditions (Reformed, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.) have mainline forms, even the very unsacramental ones.

Edwin

 

[MariaG]

“Evangelical” unfortunately does often mean less sacramental, though folks like me are trying to change that; but among Lutherans and (to some extent) Reformed the more staunchly confessional traditions are often more sacramental, so you can’t necessarily say that mainline folks are *more *sacramental.

There’s a growing interest in the sacraments among evangelicals. But generally speaking, the influence of 19th-century revivalism (which deeply shaped American evangelicalism) tends to work against the sacraments. So you’re right up to a point; the two main caveats I’d make are

1. As I said, confessional churches are often very sacramental (though not necessarily “evangelical” in the revivalist sense–in fact they may be hostile to this); and
2. All the older Protestant traditions (Reformed, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.) have mainline forms, even the very unsacramental ones.

Edwin

Thanks for the clarification.

I would guess that as the newer branches of Christianity get older, the more they will move towards sacramentals.

I think we see this progression in things like Mary.

I pray that someday as these groups progress, and grow in the Lord that they will see how their new understanding of Mary (and sacramentals) take nothing away from Christ.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[dessert]

I got angry.

I apologize for the insulting tone in the original post here. I am going to take a sabbatical from this board (and maybe from all boards) and when I return, maybe I can be more prudent in what I respond to and how I go about it.

Thanks for all your kind words.

Mike

Hey STEADFAST if you are still out there? let me know I will give you my email I am a revert as of 8 months ago. It hasn’t been easy, I’ve been confused easilly everyone trying to hurry up and teach me stuff so I could catch up. Do you know how that is? It hasn’t been all fun and sometimes some smashed grapes. It was suggested to me to go to one priest/confessor so that is what I have been doing even tho!!! some others think other priest are nicer but father says we need to be kinder so they are telling us that out there!!! Sometimes I do feel like throwing tomatoes but that would really mess up my keyboard besides they do better in the spagetsdi. They are just so eager to help you know and father says to be gentle with people but sometimes the truth does hurt PLEASE keep reading the BIBLE and praying the Our Father because I want to keep hearing from YYYYooooooUUUUU. Jesus died for you and all of us we are not perfect(MATURE) sometimes like bros and sisssters. My bio family sometimes ok most the time does NNNNOTTT tell me the truth they tell me what I like to hear like you sing like an angel(except a little offff)
“Holy Spirit, I believe that you are alive in me. help me to recognize you in my brothers and sisters, and in the spaces between us. Empower us to set a side all that seperates us so that you can build us together ino a dwelling place for love.” Word Among Us

Bless the Lord all my soul and all that is with in me bless His holy name! Psalm 103:1

I will for YOU Desert, return

 

[inJESUS]

My bio family sometimes ok most the time does NNNNOTTT tell me the truth they tell me what I like to hear like you sing like an angel(except a little offff)

LOL

“Holy Spirit, I believe that you are alive in me. help me to recognize you in my brothers and sisters, and in the spaces between us. Empower us to set a side all that seperates us so that you can build us together ino a dwelling place for love.” Word Among Us

 

[JMM159]

i noticed one thing. Any argument between Catholics/Protestants is derailed .

why don’t we pick up the arguments, and let knowlegeable and PATIENT members discuss? i personally don’t know much about Protestantism, and i still don’t despite reading in this forum…let’s start something and finish it. We 'll have to agree to disagree, but at least give ignorant people like me the chance to read Protestant arguments and Catholic arguments with references from the Bible and Church Fathers.

References from the Bible and Church Fathers? For what? An atheist whose name is Rodrigo Bivar–who is invited here by ignorant people like you to defend your Catholcism–doesn’t even believe in the very existence of God, what he will do with the references from un-infallible Bibles of Protestants or even from your “infallible” Bibles/Church fathers?

LOL

 

[inJESUS]

Well i have posted many things the Moderators have erased. One time they even erased me(for a week)

LOL

 

[apple72]

“For those who believe no explanation is necessary
for those who don’t no explanation is enough” Catholicism is a religion but it will be your faith that will save you. all of us are struggling catholics and non-catholics alike in this thing called life. but it is in seeking God’s truth that we are freed and liberated. “the truth shall set you free.” and our Lord Jesus said: “I am the way, the, truth, and the life.”
As Aristotle puts it there is One substance and the rest are accidents." Godspeed in your journey and rest assured you are not alone.

 

[lak611]

Just because a person is non-Catholic does not mean that they are anti-Catholic. I respect the beliefs of everyone on this forum. As the saying goes that one “draws more flies to vinergar” we need to be charitable because the Protestants on this forum won’t listen to us if we ram our beliefs down their throats, but they will listen to us if we speak to them on their terms (using Scripture verses when necessary) and are charitable to them! :bible1:

 

[uther]

I’ve just read through all the posts. Fascinating.

As a convert to the RCC I understand the zeal that some people might display. You don’t convert unless you really believe it (usually) and it takes a lot of motivation to make a major change such as going from Evangelical to Catholicism (as I did), recognizing there will be those who will not understand and may criticize, so in a place like this that zeal gets expressed. Converts to any religious position are always the most zealous, right? I mean, how could someone not see what is so obvious? Well, I’ve tried to make it a habit to step back for a second to remind myself that it just may not be so obvious to someone else. That’s not easy to accept. As a newly minted Catholic (about three years) the hardest thing for me to fathom is how anyone could leave it, but I know there is traffic in the other direction, and usually they are the most zealous at pointing out the errors of the RCC. Funny how that works.

I don’t hang around here that much. I find it too time consuming and I have very little of that precious commodity. So once in awhile I select a thread that catches my eye, like this one.

I would ask Steadfast and any others that have posted; Do you think there are many converts either way from these forums? I am asking a serious question. My gut feeling is that most people come here with firmly set opinions and beliefs. I have learned factual information on occasion, but have never heard an argument against my RC faith that inspired a second thought about that faith, but rather only a consideration of how to rebut the argument.

 

[JMM159]

But the stupidity of high order here is there are Catholics here who invited an atheist (i.e Rodrigo Bivar) to defend their Catholicism. LOOOL

What an atheist has to do with the beliefs of Catholics when he as an atheist does not even believe in the very existence of God leave alone believing in the Eternal Immortal dead-God or who was born 2000 years ago like any human child that made her mother impure like birth of any human child, and his penis’ foreskin was removed by Jews (by taking his penis in their hands when this baby “God” was merely 8 days old) or when Jews and Romans tried to kill him when he was 33+ of age with a most barbaric death, he could not even save his Eternal Immortal life but complained to “God” : “My God, My God! Why thou hast forsaken me”…etc.

If this atheist (i.e. Rodrigo Bivar) is not an atheist but a disguised Catholic Christian in order to bash non-Catholic faiths, then he is lying and cheating with his own faith/God/Church thus in this case how reliable is this person and how cheaters and liars are those Catholics who invited him to deceive himself and Catholics and defame the Catholic church with his senseless posts.

LOL