This is not the place for intelligent debate

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uther said:
I’ve just read through all the posts. Fascinating.

As a convert to the RCC I understand the zeal that some people might display. You don’t convert unless you really believe it (usually) and it takes a lot of motivation to make a major change such as going from Evangelical to Catholicism (as I did), recognizing there will be those who will not understand and may criticize, so in a place like this that zeal gets expressed. Converts to any religious position are always the most zealous, right? I mean, how could someone not see what is so obvious? Well, I’ve tried to make it a habit to step back for a second to remind myself that it just may not be so obvious to someone else. That’s not easy to accept. As a newly minted Catholic (about three years) the hardest thing for me to fathom is how anyone could leave it, but I know there is traffic in the other direction, and usually they are the most zealous at pointing out the errors of the RCC. Funny how that works.

I don’t hang around here that much. I find it too time consuming and I have very little of that precious commodity. So once in awhile I select a thread that catches my eye, like this one.

I would ask Steadfast and any others that have posted; Do you think there are many converts either way from these forums? I am asking a serious question. My gut feeling is that most people come here with firmly set opinions and beliefs. I have learned factual information on occasion, but have never heard an argument against my RC faith that inspired a second thought about that faith, but rather only a consideration of how to rebut the argument.
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The question is: Do I think there are many converts from these forums? Well lets hear from someone that has! I think that this forum gets a person to thinking and that person goes to ask questions from someone else and it just gets the ball rolling. Yes we do come with set opinions so did the deciples of Jesus and they were with Him for THREE years learning, listening, practicing and imitating the Christ. What were they learning? 🙂
If Steadfast Mike is still reading you are named after a most wonderfull saint Saint Michael is the arcangel of all time and is a protector of us all!!!

O Lord of Hosts,
Blessed is the man who trust in You! Psalm 84:12
 
Much of the topic of this thread is like the absurd celibacy-causes-pedophelia argument. Have you ever seen a forum dedicated to a controversial topic that didn’t have enormous roadblocks to intelligent debate? Not me man. Partisan zeal and the nature of the anonymous internet make debate very difficult. My point is, there is nothing intrinsic to Catholicism, or this forum for that matter, that makes good dialog any more difficult than other forums dedicated to a contentious subject. The exception might be the forum that is tightly moderated. But then I find such forums too unweildy to use. Apologists like Dave Armstrong has rejected forums of any kind altogether. I notice my forum posted has dropped ten-fold myself. I’ve been doing blog comboxes and even that is getting less-and-less.

Scott
 
Scott,
I like your signature line and your realistic approach.

Dessert,
Maybe the question requires a poll or a new thread.
 
Steadfast said:
That I had hoped it could be.

What I see more than anything else is ridicule, hatred and a real lack of charity toward ones neighbors.

Unfortunately, I’ve allowed myself to be drawn into this and have responded in kind.
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I hope you read this, Steadfast. I really understand where you are coming from and I probably won’t remain on this board extremely long, either. It’s not just this forum, but message boards of every kind unveil the true human condition of us all. I applaud you for taking responsibility for yourself and wish you the best that God has for you.

I just found something that lifted my spirits on another forum that maybe will lift yours, too. (I hope.) Never listened to this guy Peter Kreeft before. But I like the spirit of his delivery here (and I normally don’t trust ecumenical stuff).

http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism.htm

This is the true spirit of cooperation between people of different Christian backgrounds. I look for this and rarely find it.
 
Mickey said:
Wow! As soon as you apologize, you lay in with the insults. 😦
👋
Why do I have a difficult time believing you are sincere? All of these insults seem to speak otherwise.
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He is just frustrated.😦 I was checking out Catholicism, too, and then nearly threw in the towel after coming to this forum. There are a few people off-board who have changed my mind.:rolleyes: Forums are often not the best place for safe discussion. I was on a bicycle forum and within a few posts, it turned incredibly nasty and vulgar :mad: --and I mean, it was only BICYCLEs we were talking about!
 
inJESUS said:
i can see Jesus so sad over all this:(

please Protestants, don’t leave 😦 we are all brothers in Christ…we must work our differences with love.
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Me, too. I grew up a Protestant in a mostly Catholic community with lots of Catholic (and Jewish) friends. We never got bent out of shape even though we didn’t see eye to eye on certain things.

My mother’s best friend is Catholic and my mother is a staunchly conservative Protestant. Her friend is elderly and needs lots of care. The friend’s son was her primary caretaker and just got killed riding a bicycle. What if my mother and her friend didn’t speak to each other over Catholic/Protestant issues? Who would be there for them? But no! They are each other’s support. That is the way Christians should live.
 
Saint_Michael said:
My brothers family is Southern Baptist’s from Virginia, they refused to attend their daughters wedding or their grandsons Baptism, anyway it exists, on the radios, in books, and on any non-Catholic Christian site out there anti-Catholicism is out there. SInce you aren’t Catholic it would be natural for you to deny that there is any anti-Catholicism, it’s compeltely naive to think so, but I can understand it I guess.
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There is nothing anti-Catholic about refusing to attend the ceremonies and liturgies of another faith community. (I don’t attend Protestant services; I can barely imagine myself attending Eastern Orthodox liturgies.) What is anti-Catholic (or anti-anything) is distorting what another group teaches:

ex. Catholics worship Mary, the Pope, themselves, etc.

Other anti’s:

Muslims worship the Devil, as do the Buddhists, etc.
 
Contarini said:
What we ecumenical Protestants find frustrating is that many of the Catholics here seem to resist that idea rather than welcoming it. It’s as if they need anti-Catholic Protestants in order to maintain their own identity. That’s the attitude Steadfast is criticizing.
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Agree. I believe that there is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc. Any time you reject a person in whom Jesus Christ resides, you have injured part of the Body of Christ.

When Paul was on the road to Damascus, he asked, “Who are you, Lord?” And the Lord answered, “I am Jesus (of Nazareth) whom thou persecuteth.” Normally, Jesus is identified after the Resurrection by the name “Christ” as in “Christ Jesus” or “Jesus Christ”. But not this time–He is identified in His humanity, though He be risen and seated at the right hand of the Father. He is fully God and fully Man–truly.

Jesus, being our high priest and able to be touched by the feeling of our infirmities, feels every little thing that any member of His Body feels. The entire CHURCH is the enlarged Body of Christ. That’s why when we injure one another, we injure Him. And when we sit with another Christian–even if they are obnoxious–we are honored, because He is there, too. When will we learn?

I believe that is part of discerning the Lord’s Body, for how can you partake of the bread and wine while remembering that your “brother has ought against you”?
 
Contarini said:
What we ecumenical Protestants find frustrating is that many of the Catholics here seem to resist that idea rather than welcoming it. It’s as if they need anti-Catholic Protestants in order to maintain their own identity. That’s the attitude Steadfast is criticizing.
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Agree. I believe that there is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc. Any time you reject a person in whom Jesus Christ resides, you have injured part of the Body of Christ.

When Paul was on the road to Damascus, he asked, “Who are you, Lord?” And the Lord answered, “I am Jesus (of Nazareth) whom thou persecuteth.” Normally, Jesus is identified after the Resurrection by the name “Christ” as in “Christ Jesus” or “Jesus Christ”. But not this time–He is identified in His humanity, though He be risen and seated at the right hand of the Father. He is fully God and fully Man–truly.

Jesus, being our high priest and able to be touched by the feeling of our infirmities, feels every little thing that any member of His Body feels. The entire CHURCH is the enlarged Body of Christ. That’s why when we injure one another, we injure Him. And when we sit with another Christian–even if they are obnoxious–we are honored, because He is there, too. When will we learn?

I believe that is part of discerning the Lord’s Body, for how can you partake of the bread and wine while remembering that your “brother has ought against you”?
 
This is not the place for intelligent debate
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It is more intelligent than other so-called Christian forums such as CARMS and Baptist Board. I am a member of several forums. Hostility exudes toward Catholics at these forums. They as well exude hostility towards each other.
That is the way Christians should live.
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In an Ideal world yes. As long as we have entities such as Dave Hunt, James White, Bill Jackson and other staunch anti-catholics that have active predator anti-catholic ministries, then you will never encounter the ideal world.

When it comes to tolerance, you will find there is more tolerance here then you have at other christian oriented forums.
 
glimmer said:
He is just frustrated.😦 I was checking out Catholicism, too, and then nearly threw in the towel after coming to this forum. There are a few people off-board who have changed my mind.:rolleyes: Forums are often not the best place for safe discussion. I was on a bicycle forum and within a few posts, it turned incredibly nasty and vulgar :mad: --and I mean, it was only BICYCLEs we were talking about!
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Yes, you are correct. I suppose it could even get nasty in a knitting forum! 😃
 
glimmer said:
He is just frustrated.😦 I was checking out Catholicism, too, and then nearly threw in the towel after coming to this forum. There are a few people off-board who have changed my mind.:rolleyes: Forums are often not the best place for safe discussion. I was on a bicycle forum and within a few posts, it turned incredibly nasty and vulgar :mad: --and I mean, it was only BICYCLEs we were talking about!
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You are correct. Forums of all kinds can deteriorate over things that don’t even matter. With religion, things can get very ugly.

And as I had said previously, there are currently several fairly new Catholic posters who are not being charitable at this time. You will see at least one of those with their “account under review” in order to see if this is a pattern of uncharitableness or just a bad day/thread.

The difference is that many Catholic here are shocked that someone could say this forum is so bad, because if one visits many non-Catholic forums (due to forum rules I will not post the worst in my opinion because of forum swarming), the level of attacks on the character of people or on the Blessed Virgin Mother allowed is so far above what is allowed here it is almost a ridiculous accusation for those who have participated on these other boards to see people talk about “how uncharitable it is here to protestants”.

And that is even with the higher than normal number of uncharitable posts from Catholic posters currently.

So, in conclusion, no it is not all in your perception. There have been several nasty and uncharitble Catholic posters. At least one has their account under review. And respectfully, we are still the most charitable christian forum in which respect is demanded for ALL people, not just those whom we agree with.

God Bless,
Maria
 
glimmer said:
Agree. I believe that there is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc. Any time you reject a person in whom Jesus Christ resides, you have injured part of the Body of Christ.

When Paul was on the road to Damascus, he asked, “Who are you, Lord?” And the Lord answered, “I am Jesus (of Nazareth) whom thou persecuteth.” Normally, Jesus is identified after the Resurrection by the name “Christ” as in “Christ Jesus” or “Jesus Christ”. But not this time–He is identified in His humanity, though He be risen and seated at the right hand of the Father. He is fully God and fully Man–truly.

Jesus, being our high priest and able to be touched by the feeling of our infirmities, feels every little thing that any member of His Body feels. The entire CHURCH is the enlarged Body of Christ. That’s why when we injure one another, we injure Him. And when we sit with another Christian–even if they are obnoxious–we are honored, because He is there, too. When will we learn?

I believe that is part of discerning the Lord’s Body, for how can you partake of the bread and wine while remembering that your “brother has ought against you”?
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🙂 YESSS I agree too there is One Lord One baptism One faith and for the etc. check out 1 -Timothy 3:14-15-16. it states
"These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly:
but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystey of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh.
Justified inthe Spirit.
Seen by angels.
Preached among the Gentiles.
Believed on in the world.
Received up in Glory."NKJ
Before receiving the Eucharist I do confess that I am not worthy but by the grace of God. :amen: Desert, return from
 
MariaG said:
if one visits many non-Catholic forums (due to forum rules I will not post the worst in my opinion because of forum swarming), the level of attacks on the character of people or on the Blessed Virgin Mother allowed is so far above what is allowed here it is almost a ridiculous accusation for those who have participated on these other boards to see people talk about “how uncharitable it is here to protestants”.
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Oh man, you got that right Maria! I went to one of these forums that you are talking about to take a look-see. I literally became so sick to my stomach by the lack of charity and offensive language that I wanted to vomit (sorry to get graphic–but it is true). I will never go back.

This place is like paradise in comparison–though it can get testy at times.
 
MariaG said:
… There have been several nasty and uncharitble Catholic posters. At least one has their account under review. And respectfully, we are still the most charitable christian forum in which respect is demanded for ALL people, not just those whom we agree with.

God Bless,
Maria
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Agreed, at least as to the larger christian discussion forums.
 
dessert said:
The question is: Do I think there are many converts from these forums? Well lets hear from someone that has! I think that this forum gets a person to thinking and that person goes to ask questions from someone else and it just gets the ball rolling. Yes we do come with set opinions so did the deciples of Jesus and they were with Him for THREE years learning, listening, practicing and imitating the Christ. What were they learning? 🙂
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Debate doesn’t normally work like that.
It is the rare philosopher who will reverse his position when presented with an argument that he cannot refute.

In fact, the well-prepared debater can generally win. For instance a teacher, I now realise a very brilliant teacher of mine called Mr Selby Brock used to present the flat-earth argument. This was a cleverly-designed piece of nonsense based on the premise that light does not travel in straight lines. No boy, even armed with a geography textbook, could refute him.

However truth does out. If a position is fallacious then, usually, the fallacy eventually becomes clear, though it may not be on the scale of a human life. Very few people are now Communists, for example.
 
what is Christianity? it is the Word of God, Love and Unity. That’s how Christianity spread. Christianity is not a set of rituals. Christianity is the signs of God among us. We are the Light of the world; we are the salt of the world. Are we being this light? are we being this salt? no matter what church we want to follow, if we don’t show the fruit Jesus wants, we are not of His followers. Schism is not the fruit of love and unity.
 
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