"This is the real world - Not 'Catholic Answers'"

[kleary]

Excellent points!! Seems rather sad that some folks keep forgetting there is a baby involved here, which is the greater sin, adutery, or poor care of a child due to inavailability of good health services?

Good health care services can be provided by the state if necessary. Besides her family is very well off and just didn’t like paying $212 every time she went to her obgyn- they pressured my brother also to get married civilly in order for her to get on his benefits.

It is NEVER justified to commit one mortal sin on top of another to avoid the effects of the sin.

Ken

 

[a_cermak]

What about research showing that a child will fair better if she is born to married parents (and that stat is not referring to only Sacramental marriages)? Wouldn’t it be better for the parents to contract a civil marriage and live as brother and sister until the annulment comes through or the child is reared to adulthood?

 

[chotock]

Good health care services can be provided by the state if necessary. Besides her family is very well off and just didn’t like paying $212 every time she went to her obgyn- they pressured my brother also to get married civilly in order for her to get on his benefits.

It is NEVER justified to commit one mortal sin on top of another to avoid the effects of the sin.

Ken

Now I’m confused, I thought you said the Priest advised them to get married in a civil ceremony? External appearance of wealth is never an indication wealth is actually present or not. Perhaps they have had the daughter on a family plan and that will end soon due to age or perhaps the pregnancy. Did the Preist (or whoever) advise them to live as a couple, or just get a civil marriage for insurance and perhaps tax purposes?

 

[Walking_Home]

Yes, something similar happened to myself. I quoted something on a thread from here at Catholic Answers to a mercy sister who is my friend of mine, actually it was the thread about mints and gum before the eucharist. Her reply was “Dont take too much seriously what you read on the net. There are so many extreme fundamentalists out there” which in a sense it a little relief to me, because I could get so stressed about reading the posts on here. Like God would hit me with a sledge hammer for doing the wrong thing, this can be impression I get here too. My sister friend is so devout and holy. So I’ll go with her, but fore most I will keep my eyes on God.

Shae

---

I hate to break this to you Shae—but if this sister friend of yours is saying that we do not need to keep the 1 hr. fast prior to receiving Holy Communion —she is indeed wrong.

There are only two things allowed within that 1hr prior to receiving Holy Communion—water and medicine.

You do need to remember ---- the Church speaks with the authority from God----your sister friend does not. Devout would mean that she abides by the laws of the Church and would not be leading people down a wrong path.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I don’t think there is any 6 month waiting period mandated by Canon Law. Now, of course, individual dioceses have waiting periods, but it ain’t in the Code of Canon Law, I don’t believe.

Many diocese have rules that if a pregnancy is involved. The couple must wait until the child is at least a year old, if not two years old. Because pregancy is see as a factor “forcing” them to Marry in Annulment cases may times. To insure that this is a free and clear choice without any pressures from outside people or circumstances.

 

[plh]

would you still be impressed if the annulment was not granted and they still carried on this way?
Also as a side note …you DO NOT need to be married to provide health insurance for your child nor do you need to be married to provide support for your child

GREAT answer. Also, if the government provided funding for an OB, you can bet that the service would be good to excellent. Chances are not taken by the government when it comes to the healthy birth of a baby. If you qualify, you then need to find an OB that participates in medicaid. My doctor (30 years ago) turned out to be Catholic with thirteen children of his own.

 

[chotock]

What I think is missing here is…
Why did the Priest (or family depending on which post) recommend the couple get married in a civil ceremony?

BTW not all states have that wonderful of health care programs for their citizens, some cities have taken on some of the burden for themselves because of the failings of the state.

I wonder what will happen to the child and the parents if an annulment is not granted and the family is split. Perhaps a few more lost souls pushed out the door. Its a sad affair these days. Folks should have a bit more control over themselves, then again, judgement is not for the laity now is it?

 

[rwoehmke]

Bear in mind that there are priests of a certain generation who accepted the concept of the “Internal Forum”. It was quite popular for a while, but has fallen out of favor (Praise the Lord!). I think that there are a lot of people and priests who have very soft, but misguided hearts. They really struggle with the perceived harshness of some of our moral (name removed by moderator)eratives. I might point out the error in their ways, but would be the last to condemn them if they decide against advice. Pray that the Lord is merciful to them. Also the OP was not present at the discussion between this priest and the couple and may be getting a very sanitized version of what was said and how it was said. I think if I were in the couples situation and had a very orthodox and knowledgible relative to report to, I might be tempted to be very careful in reporting what was said, maybe even shade the truth a little or a lot.

 

[DiZent]

Yes, something similar happened to myself. I quoted something on a thread from here at Catholic Answers to a mercy sister who is my friend of mine, actually it was the thread about mints and gum before the eucharist. Her reply was “Dont take too much seriously what you read on the net. There are so many extreme fundamentalists out there” which in a sense it a little relief to me, because I could get so stressed about reading the posts on here. Like God would hit me with a sledge hammer for doing the wrong thing, this can be impression I get here too. My sister friend is so devout and holy. So I’ll go with her, but fore most I will keep my eyes on God.

Shae

I got very confused when I first started reading the Catholic message boards. I had no idea there were so many divisions within the Church. It took a while to sort it all out, but I have learned a lot in the process.

 

[netmilsmom]

What I think is missing here is…
Why did the Priest (or family depending on which post) recommend the couple get married in a civil ceremony?

BTW not all states have that wonderful of health care programs for their citizens, some cities have taken on some of the burden for themselves because of the failings of the state.

Where is the personal responsibily of the couple? The “State” should not be paying for their mistakes. I have enough problems raising my own kids.

My nephew and his wife had no health insurance when they had their second child who ended up in the neo-natal unit. They worked out a payment plan with the hospital and paid it off in five years.

You are rationalizing their sin. Period.

 

[Cristiano]

I got very confused when I first started reading the Catholic message boards. I had no idea there were so many divisions within the Church. It took a while to sort it all out, but I have learned a lot in the process.

Can you please show me which are the divisions within the Church? I see a lot of personal opinions, poor behaviors and ignorance from us individuals, and that it is accounted for considering that we are not perfect. However, I have not seen the Church contraddicting or dividing itself through her teachings.

 

[John_Higgins]

More likely than not DiZent meant division within the people of the Church.

John

 

[rwoehmke]

Keep in mind that there is the heirarchy of Popes, Bishops, etc. which are one of the models of “The Church.” The Body of Christ which includes all the baptized includes people of many stripes. Also if I am not mistaken Vatican II recognized “The People of God” as the Church. Is the Church on earth broken? I have no doubts. Are the official teachings and the Pope broken? Obviously not.

 

[DiZent]

More likely than not DiZent meant division within the people of the Church.

John

Thank you John, that is what I meant. Pre VII vs Post VII, TLM vs NO, liberal vs conservative, contemporary vs traditional. If I had encountered this when I was finding my way back to the Church, I might not have made it. I would have been overwhelmed. The priest who counseled me was very encouraging, and gentle with my misunderstandings. I was counseled to immediately begin annullment procedings so that I would be free to marry again - even though I wasn’t dating anyone at the time. There are several in my family who are in “irregular” marriages - most just ended up turning Protestant, or don’t go to any church at all.

 

[chotock]

Where is the personal responsibily of the couple? The “State” should not be paying for their mistakes. I have enough problems raising my own kids.

My nephew and his wife had no health insurance when they had their second child who ended up in the neo-natal unit. They worked out a payment plan with the hospital and paid it off in five years.

You are rationalizing their sin. Period.

I am NOT rationalizing their sin. I am attempting to get some people who feel that two or three sentences is sufficient to pass judgement on what was most likely a very private talk between two people and a Priest. Not every situation in life is identical to another. There are so many ingredients missing in this recipe that one will never know be able to piece it all together without speaking to all the persons involved.

I wonder what would have happened if instead of jumping down the Priest’s throat, someone would have noticed a tough situation unfolding and offered some support and help?

This is very similar to a Mass I attended some months ago in which another visitor to the parish was berating the priest because he did not kneel. What they failed to realize was that the elderly priest had just returned after having hip surgery and was physically unable to kneel. They automatically jumped to thinkng the priest was irreverant and abusing the liturgy, not that he might be injured. The surface of a lake may be calm and sweet, while underneath is a crocodile waiting to eat you alive. Never assume that what you see is the entire picture.

 

[Genesis315]

Yeah Catholic moral doctrine revealed by God is just some pie in the sky ideal. Worldly people know better what’s practical rather than some ideal…

Ridding myself of this attitude was the best gift of the Holy Spirit I have ever received. God’s ideal is always what is most practical as well. One of the major problems in the modern and post-modern mindset, is that we have lost our grasp on the independent and objective reality of God and true Christian charity. We have created a disconnect between these things and the material/sensual world with its waves of popular principles.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I am more concerned over the care of the child than the status of the wife’s previous marriage. **I would rather a man and woman live together in sin so that they can consolidate expenditures and have good health coverage for an infant, than to hope that the mother has the correct income levels to get whatever poor health care the state provides. **
It is tragic that the couple could not wait until they were validly married before they had sex. It is a testement to the dissoulution of morals in today’s society. I am encouraged by this couple in the fact the wife IS working on an annulment.

By that logic, you could also say that it is moral to abort a baby based on income levels. If a mother won’t be able to provide for her infant, then using your rationale, abortions are the answer.

 

[chotock]

By that logic, you could also say that it is moral to abort a baby based on income levels. If a mother won’t be able to provide for her infant, then using your rationale, abortions are the answer.

Are you serious? Can you just overlook such an important piece of what I said just so you can accuse me of supporting abortion? I said I am more concerned over whether a child is getting the care and love it needs than whether the parents are living in sin. Now how can that be reconciled against your accusation of abortion? The particular area you highlighted mentions an infant, hmm, can an abortion produce an infant? I don’t think so. Please refrain from such accusations in the future.

My entire arguement in that post was based on the idea that a child will be born, not aborted. Be gladdened by the supposition that a child will be born into a couple that is, from what LITTLE information we have, making the best of a bad decision. The consulted a Priest before rushing out to do something, sounds to me like they are thinking about the child more than themselves, a selfless act perhaps?

Is it a tragedy that the couple has to deal with this, you bet it is. And I have said this over and over and over again. Sin is never excusable, but there are times when it is unavoidable, and this perhaps is one of them. I am thankfull that the God I know and love is compassionate and just and looks to the very depths of my existence before passing judgement. He understands that I do not live in a perfect world and that there are occasions where I am going to be presented with a problem that cannot be overcome by simply saying its against God. Sometimes we have to work with what we have, and that is not always the best. What I am reading in this thread is exactly what Christ was addressing with the pharisees “you know the law, but you do not understand it”.

You have passed judgement on a couple and a Priest without knowing even 10% of the truth. We have two different versions hereof the same story as it is, in one the Priest advised the couple to marry and in another the woman’s family pressured them into it because they were not willing to continue paying the medical costs. Why did the priest advise this? Why was the family unwilling to pay any more medical costs? Do we have a complete picture? ABSOLUTELY NOT! There is a reason why Priests are trained so heavily in hearing confession, to avoid such situations as we are seeing in this thread.

 

[mrsfrazier]

…advised my brother to get married civilly to his then pregnant girlfriend and then later get his marriage convalidated since they were waiting for her annulment and it hadn’t come through yet.

When I called them they told me, “Yes it is true, sometimes we tell couples to do that”. I responded, " ‘Catholic Answers’ apologists have stated that it is mortal sin to do such thing and that you are wrong to advise people to do that."

The response from the parish, “This is the real world, not Catholic Answers.”

Ken

You really think it’s your business to judge what a priest has advised in an individual couple’s situation? Catholic Answers is great, but it’s not the final word on everything I hope that you believe and trust in the Church enough to respect priests that have been through years of training and hard work to get where they are; and I think it is in bad taste to police parish decisions about a person’s relationship. Let’s focus more on our own sin and less on pointing out the sins and faults of others…

 

[Karin]

You really think it’s your business to judge what a priest has advised in an individual couple’s situation? Catholic Answers is great, but it’s not the final word on everything I hope that you believe and trust in the Church enough to respect priests that have been through years of training and hard work to get where they are; and I think it is in bad taste to police parish decisions about a person’s relationship. Let’s focus more on our own sin and less on pointing out the sins and faults of others…

Do you actually beleive that** all** priests are orthodox in their preaching?