This is upsetting!

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Monica4316

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Oki I’m really confused and upset about something… and this is the worst day for this, because I’m supposed to be becoming Catholic today!!

My priest gave me this video about the Eucharist to watch… and it has some things in it that I really disagree with.

The lady who narrated it, said that in the early Church, they just viewed the Eucharist as a “community meal” where they “remembered Christ’s sacrifice”, and believed that Christ is present in the whole service and didn’t focus so much on the Blessed Sacrament itself. Then, in response to some heresies, they brought in a lot of “extra” “unnecessary” things like altars and altar rails and bells during consecration and people started kneeling and bowing before the Eucharist and focusing on Christ’s presence there… and she said, all that just took people further from God cause the Mass was mostly something the priest did and there was such an emphasis on sacrifice… she said that the old Latin Mass obscured the so called “real meaning” of the Mass… and that in VII, they “brought back” the original meaning which is community, and that Christ is present in Christians.

I felt so upset after watching that… cause I DO believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist in a special way, it IS Jesus, and I think reverence is important… I went to a Latin Mass and instead of it ‘drawing me away from God’, it brought me closer to Him!! I don’t understand why my priest gave me this video… it just seems so liberal to me! Tradition doesn’t bring us away from God… and when I go to Mass, I never think of it as ‘for the people’ but for God, it’s our worship to Him, and we worship the Eucharist!

Then I got really afraid that my understanding is just “behind the times” and that the Church no longer teaches any of this, and that it teaches what that video said… the lady in the video was talking as if everything before VII was wrong and it had restored what the early Church believed. I disagree with this… even Pope Benedict said that we should interpret Vatican II based on other councils, like Council of Trent, and that it’s not separate from the Tradition of the Church! the teaching that the Mass is heavenly worship of God and that the original sacrifice is re-presented before us and that transubstantiation is true…that’s the Church’s Tradition… we can’t just get rid of it…

can someone tell me if I’m wrong or if the video is wrong?

cause I’m afraid that the Church is not what I think it is!! 😦 and I’m supposed to be entering it tonight! I keep on wondering…why was the liturgy changed after VII… what if it’s for the reason the video said,* that the whole meaning of the Mass got changed*? that’s what I’m afraid of 😦

also, would you say that the Church is becoming more theologically ‘liberal’ or more traditional/conservative at this time? It seems like for a time it was becoming more liberal but I got the impression that now it’s balancing out and going back to where it was before a bit… I got the impression that Pope Benedict is really conservative and that he likes the traditions of the Church, and doesn’t see them as pointless…do you think the liturgy would continue getting more liberal or get more traditional over time?

can someone please help me out?

thanks!!
 
Monica,

Your understanding before seeing this video is correct. What that video teaches is absolutely wrong. See this page on Scripture Catholic concerning The Eucharist.

The Church is NOT getting more theologically liberal, but unfortunately there are some weeds among the wheat in the Church who would like to promote their own agenda. I am so sorry this happened today of all days, but I suppose you can look at this as a test of your faith.

Personally I would print the Scripture Catholic page, tape it to the video and hand it back to the priest after Mass.
 
This is completely wrong! It sounds like the priest hadn’t watched the video before giving it to you. It doesn’t even sound Catholic; it sounds Protestant in the extreme (at least as far as the Eucharist goes). The Eucharist is exactly as you stated: Jesus is really present in the Eucharist.
The presence of Christ by the power of his word and the Holy Spirit
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1373 “Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us,” is present in many ways to his Church:197 in his word, in his Church’s prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name,"199 in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned,199 in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But "he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species."200
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1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203
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1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
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It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.204
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And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:
Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed. . . . Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.205
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1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."206

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.207
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Catechism of the Catholic Church paras. 1373-1377.

Vatican II precipitated a lot of non-doctrinal changes in the Church. For example, the liturgy changed in a big way when the language was changed from Latin to the vernacular. There’s nothing substantive about that (the early Church celebrated the Mass in the vernacular Greek and Hebrew, then in the vernacular Latin – but then didn’t change it when everyone stopped speaking it regularly), but it makes for a radically different experience on Sunday.

The part of the video about how Vatican II “fixed” all the “mistakes” in the Church sounds like a Catholic who doesn’t understand the Church. Vatican II was just a continuation of the Church’s ecumenical Councils; it further developed certain doctrines, but it didn’t change any substance of the Church.

I wouldn’t describe this video as “liberal” or “conservative,” though; I would describe it as “wrong.”
 
I don’t know how much help I can be, but I can tell you that the video is completely wrong on what it says about the Eucharist and the early church. Believing that Christ is truely present in the Eucharist is a core teaching of the church.

This is emphasized in CCC 1373-77 stating The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as ‘the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend.’ In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist ‘the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained’ …" also stated in 1088 and 1413.
I hope this helps, someone else will need to say something about the historical nature of the Eucharist, but from what I have read (and can’t quote) the Christians in the first centuries believed that Christ was present in the Eucharist, and I am sure it was re-affirmed be some council.

The Church is was you thought it was. I would ask the priest about the video, and then ask him what exactly does he think he is doing everyday (hopefully) if not bring the true presence of Christ to the faithful. 😦 Maybe he had good intentions maybe not, I would ask. I don’t know about ‘liberal’ ‘conservative’ but I do know that there are people on both sides trying to move the Church, but that she will remain in the truth.

Have a blessed Easter and welcome!!! 👍

Pax

Thanks to those who were quicker than I. 😛
 
thanks everyone…

the video didn’t outright say that Jesus is not present in the Eucharist… but that our focus should be on the community meal aspect of it not the sacrifice or the “way it was pre-VII”

and I disagree with this…
 
Monica4316 said:
thanks everyone…

the video didn’t outright say that Jesus is not present in the Eucharist… but that our focus should be on the community meal aspect of it not the sacrifice or the “way it was pre-VII”

and I disagree with this…
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Eucharist means “thanksgiving.” The Mass, the Eucharistic celebration is a time to give thanks for all that Christ has done. I do not know if you have a copy of the Vatican II documents. Reading them will remove any misconceptions you may have regarding the purpose of this pastoral council. In the documents regarding religious communities, for instance, it points to certain communities that had strayed from the Liturgy of the Hours being a way to sanctify the hours of the day and simply said the prayers in one sitting.

The Mass has changed over time. The essentials, however, remain the same. In calling for changes in the Mass, the Council sought to remove extraneous repetition.
Yes, the Eucharist is a sacrifice. It is also a celebratory meal. It might also help to understand the difference between Tradition and tradition. Tradition (with a capital T) refers to the teachings of Christ as passed to us through the generations through apostolic succession. These teachings are preserved and protected by the Holy Spirit. The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church, comprised of the Popes and bishops.
Tradition (small t) refers to customs that have developed and changed over time. The early Christians, members of the Way, met in homes to celebrate and share in the Eucharistic meal after first attending Sabbath services. With the persecutions, they moved into the catacombs, the reason candles are used as light during Mass,

Early Masses were celebrated in Greek. There was controversy when the language was changed to Latin. Vulgate refers to the vulgar language of the people. Even with this change, the Kyrie remained in Greek. The change to the vernacular with Vatican II was meant to help the congregation to more fully participate in the Liturgy, to not simply be spectators. How many of us understand Latin?
Altar rails and such are not an essential part of the Mass. Mass can be celebrated in a field, as it is in the military, as long as there is a table that can be used for the altar.

As a new member of the Church, you are not expected to know everything about the Catholic Faith. It has a depth that cannot be reached over a lifetime.
 
thanks DebChris,

when I guess what I’m saying is that if the Eucharist is really Jesus than it’s important that we approach the Mass with reverence and to worship Him, and the video seemed to be saying that we should just remove all “non essentials” cause they CAN’T help us… but I really think that they can and often do… it’s like the Protestants, they say that we should just keep everything simple so that the meaning of the Gospel would not be “obscured”, but we as Catholics know that the Church and Mary and the Saints and all the devotions we have don’t obscure anything but bring it out all the more… I think it’s similar with the liturgy, if we get rid of everything except the “community meal” that won’t necessarily accentuate the meaning of the Mass more, because the meaning is fuller… ?

I mean…sure we can have Mass in a gym with a table and no decorations… we can all gather around the table and eat Christ’s Body with our hands, not even from the priest… and everyone can ‘participate’., but then it won’t even seem like it’s Christ’s Body anymore, but ordinary bread. All the “externals” they’re meant to draw us deeper into the mystery that the Mass is, and when people want to get rid of everything, that’s dangerous cause in our society we already have no sense of holiness and no respect for the sacred…
 
Monica,

God Bless You! From your post I can easily see you are more Catholic than many of my Catholic friends and family members. Congratulations on your special day today, and welcome home:).

Romano
 
Monica4316 said:
thanks DebChris,

when I guess what I’m saying is that if the Eucharist is really Jesus than it’s important that we approach the Mass with reverence and to worship Him, and the video seemed to be saying that we should just remove all “non essentials” cause they CAN’T help us… but I really think that they can and often do… it’s like the Protestants, they say that we should just keep everything simple so that the meaning of the Gospel would not be “obscured”, but we as Catholics know that the Church and Mary and the Saints and all the devotions we have don’t obscure anything but bring it out all the more… I think it’s similar with the liturgy, if we get rid of everything except the “community meal” that won’t necessarily accentuate the meaning of the Mass more, because the meaning is fuller… ?

I mean…sure we can have Mass in a gym with a table and no decorations… we can all gather around the table and eat Christ’s Body with our hands, not even from the priest… and everyone can ‘participate’., but then it won’t even seem like it’s Christ’s Body anymore, but ordinary bread. All the “externals” they’re meant to draw us deeper into the mystery that the Mass is, and when people want to get rid of everything, that’s dangerous cause in our society we already have no sense of holiness and no respect for the sacred…
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Another way you can look at this is from the perspective of sharing a meal in your home. When guests come, do you serve on paper plates or do you bring out your best dishes?

I enjoy the church where I attend Mass. It is a small church that is over a hundred years old. The altar rail is made of wood. The only statues are those of Mary and Joseph on the altar. There are two angels, one on each side of the tabernacle and below the crucifix. There is also a small saints statue in a nook off to the side of the altar. Vigil candles are available against the wall near the altar rails.
In an age when few people read, stained glass windows became a way for them to “read” the scriptures and learn about their faith. I love how the light streams through the windows of my small church. Almost as many people attend daily Mass as attend a single Sunday Mass. Each daily Mass begins with the recitation of the rosary. One Sunday I met a man who says he drives 50 miles so he can hear the homily my pastor gives.

On a thread regarding placement of the Sign of Peace, I referenced the scripture passage calling for us to reconcile before bringing our gifts to the altar. I agree with the necessity of maintaining reverence for Christ in the Eucharist. I approach with hands cupped to form a throne. I recognize that I am a beggar and the dignity that God gave me when He formed me in His image.

There is a nearby church built in 1952. The railing is marble. There are many statues and other figures that overwhelm the senses and can actually be distracting to the attention we need to give to Sacrifice of the Mass. It is a matter of finding balance. One thing that I do like about this larger church is the Pieta located in the vestibule. It is placed behind its own railing with vigil candles available for prayer. One of the alcoves has an altar dedicated to Our Lady of Gradalupe. The statue is surrounded with flowers and candles. It is also where the monstrance is placed for Eucharistic Adoration after the Holy Thursday Mass.

I do appreciate traditional religious art. Even non-Catholic churches have started to add stained glass windows to their buildings. I have been asked why Catholics do not remove Jesus from the crucifix. I do not feel the same praying before an empty cross as I do before a crucifix that reminds me of the price Jesus paid for my sins.
 
I wish I lived anywhere near a church like either of those… 🙂

in my area all the churches are really modern, the tabernacle is moved to the side, and there’s 1 or 2 statues - if you’re lucky.

I really like the older churches though… or the new ones that look like Catholic churches and not Protestant ones.
 
Not having seen the video I can’t say what it is that the narrator is trying to say. However, the faith of the Church is very “simple”.
  1. Jesus is truly present in the consecrated bread and wine
  2. The mass is an unbloody sacrifice
  3. Christ is also present in the community, but not physically as he is in the Eucharist
  4. The Eucharist is both meal and sacrifice.
  5. In the early Church the FORM of the celebration was a community meal, because the communities were smaller. That has changed over the years, but the essence remains the same, points 1–4 from above.
Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Monica4316 said:
I wish I lived anywhere near a church like either of those… 🙂

in my area all the churches are really modern, the tabernacle is moved to the side, and there’s 1 or 2 statues - if you’re lucky.

I really like the older churches though… or the new ones that look like Catholic churches and not Protestant ones.
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A different church in my area is currently being rebuilt to handle the growth in the congregation. I have seen the model and look forward to its completion. My bishop is very orthodox when it comes to what he expects regarding the physical building of a church.
I like small intimate churches and chapels. There is one in a nearby city that is part of a small convent. One set of pews directly faces the altar while there are also pews on either side of the altar. Decorations are again simplistic and reverent.
Larger churches have been built to accommodate growing congregations. In one of the churches, the crucifix is suspended in such a way that regardless of how you walk into the church, you see it head on. This architect is the same one building the new church in my city.
Many people leave work to attend Mass in the back of the local Catholic bookstore on Wednesdays. The celebrant is a Franciscan who recently opened a retreat center. Folding chairs are used. Music is provided by means of a cassette player.
In each of these setting, the substance of the Mass as Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist remains untouched.
 
Ha, ha

Monica, you’re so naive

You know, I always remember a saying I read many years ago, when I was interested in Buddhism.
If I remember correctly, Buddha used to say : " 1,000 monks, 1,000 religions." And he was quite right.

Do you understrand this ?

I’ve been a Catholic all my life.

In the name of the Catholic Church, I beg you down on my knees, my forehead touching the ground, to forgive us . We really are a pitiful lot and you do not deserve us.

Love to you and may the Lord protect you from the modern Catholic Church.
 
Dearest Monica

Read John : 6 and yes He is present in every speck of the Host or Precious Blood whilst it remains intact. Catholics have known this since he start. If this was not true there would be no church and no hope for us.

The old Latin Mass is still alive and may make a revival soon. The new mass is just that. We have 2 masses we can use in the Roman Rite now.

If you have doubts go to your Blessed Mother:)
 
Dear Monica,

If you want to read something useful about the Eucharist, you may read the Encyclica by JP II at the following link:

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/_INDEX.HTM​

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA

2003.04.17

…
  • Table of Contents -
    See also: Index of footnotes
    • Dedication
    • INTRODUCTION
    • CHAPTER ONE THE MYSTERY OF FAITH
    • CHAPTER TWO THE EUCHARIST BUILDS THE CHURCH
    • CHAPTER THREE THE APOSTOLICITY OF THE EUCHARIST AND OF THE CHURCH
    • CHAPTER FOUR THE EUCHARIST AND ECCLESIAL COMMUNION
    • CHAPTER FIVE THE DIGNITY OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION
    • CHAPTER SIX AT THE SCHOOL OF MARY, “WOMAN OF THE EUCHARIST”
    • CONCLUSION
 
Monica, you remind me of when my daughter was born. Every little thing I’d be on the phone with the Dr., worried that she has some rare disease, or virus, or something Bad.

Also, you remind me of myself. It has been a whole big year since I was baptized. I think on this year at this time, and I see I have been like a new mother. Worried over every little thing.

I think it’s OK to worry like we do. We do it out of love. In the case of our baptism, we love God, we have a new love, the Catholic Church, we worry that something Bad is going on.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. It might be a cold or it might be a rare disease, or it might be the worries we have and nothing more. 😃 You learn over time to tell the difference. Experience, I find, is the best teacher.

God love you, and welcome Home. 🙂
 
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