This is what I "missed" when I was Mormon for 8 months... Holy Week and weddings

[RebeccaJ]

I think Young Women’s could qualify as marriage class, starting at 12 years old. A lot of time is spent on preparing girls for marriage in those classes. The focus being on being prepared to qualify for a temple marriage. Sometimes that is blatantly presented as what the girl will be able to offer the future spouse, ie, temple worthiness, “standards”, a home with “the spirit” and the inevitable classes on homemaking.

Yeah, YW is totally grooming girls 12-17 years old for marriage. It is the Mormon culture, how it works, and what is expected of a young women. No question. A temple marriage, to a Mormon, is the ultimate way to serve God. Of course girls approaching marriage age are prepared for it in formalized classes.

 

[XuDan]

I think Young Women’s could qualify as marriage class, starting at 12 years old. A lot of time is spent on preparing girls for marriage in those classes. The focus being on being prepared to qualify for a temple marriage. Sometimes that is blatantly presented as what the girl will be able to offer the future spouse, ie, temple worthiness, “standards”, a home with “the spirit” and the inevitable classes on homemaking.

The varsity scout program does similar thing for the young men, but it’s hardly as aggressive and controlling as presented above. Further, while those are topics covered in the programs they are not the sole or primary focus and marriages are not arranged.

Like I said, I’m all for exposing the LDS church for the mendacity it is, but one can do that without resorting to fabrications and exaggerations. I mean it’s not like there isn’t enough to work with already.

 

[RebeccaJ]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

The varsity scout program does similar thing for the young men, but it’s hardly as aggressive and controlling as presented above. Further, while those are topics covered in the programs they are not the sole or primary focus and marriages are not arranged.

Like I said, I’m all for exposing the LDS church for the mendacity it is, but one can do that without resorting to fabrications and exaggerations. I mean it’s not like there isn’t enough to work with already.

I dunno, I remember nothing but temple marriage as the subject. All other subjects revolve around that topic. It made me feel very trapped.

Marriages aren’t arranged, at least not like some cultures. There is a lot of matchmaking going on though.

Varsity Scouts…all they ever did in my ward was play basketball! It was very unfair to a teenager, who had to show up for YW every Tuesday in a dress, while the YM could be heard playing basketball. Always in jeans.

This girl, as a teenager, didn’t think concerning herself with marrying the basketball players was a high priority.

 

[XuDan]

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I dunno, I remember nothing but temple marriage as the subject. All other subjects revolve around that topic. It made me feel very trapped.

Marriages aren’t arranged, at least not like some cultures. There is a lot of matchmaking going on though.

That could have been your particular YW teacher turning all the lesson plans into her own agenda. That’s a flaw in their system, lay and under qualified instruction with next to no oversight.

Matchmaking, i mean, there was a ton of that at the public high school I went too as well, and from visiting other churches and faiths, it’s not at all uncommon in communities that prefer people to marry within their own religion.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We’re going have to disagree. 12-17 year olds are in marriage classes. It is how Mormonism works. Rather than being taught that discipleship is for all, married or single, discipleship is tied to a temple marriage, and teenagers are prepped in classes, that anyone else would call a marriage class.

 

[XuDan]

We’re going have to disagree. 12-17 year olds are in marriage classes. It is how Mormonism works. Rather than being taught that discipleship is for all, married or single, discipleship is tied to a temple marriage, and teenagers are prepped in classes, that anyone else would call a marriage class.

Even outside of the faith I don’t see them as marriage classes the printed curriculum just doesn’t support that conclusion. Perhaps things have changed between the generations - that is all too common for the LDS church after all. So yeah, agree to disagree.

 

[debbie_h]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I dunno, I remember nothing but temple marriage as the subject. All other subjects revolve around that topic. It made me feel very trapped.

Marriages aren’t arranged, at least not like some cultures. There is a lot of matchmaking going on though.

Varsity Scouts…all they ever did in my ward was play basketball! It was very unfair to a teenager, who had to show up for YW every Tuesday in a dress, while the YM could be heard playing basketball. Always in jeans.

This girl, as a teenager, didn’t think concerning herself with marrying the basketball players was a high priority.

Oh yes, this brings me back to my YW days… We were always focused on homemaking skills while the boys played sports…

 

[iepuras]

We’re going have to disagree. 12-17 year olds are in marriage classes. It is how Mormonism works. Rather than being taught that discipleship is for all, married or single, discipleship is tied to a temple marriage, and teenagers are prepped in classes, that anyone else would call a marriage class.

I was in the YW program in the late 80’s - early 90’s. While the lessons were not explicitly marriage prep, the undercurrent was definitely there. Everything pointed to being a good Mormon wife and mother. There was never any doubt of what our purpose was as females. When I graduated from high school and turned 18, it was very clear to me that my goal should be to get married as soon as possible, have lots of children and be a stay at home mom. The main point to college was to meet other young people and find a husband.

Well, that was never what I wanted. I didn’t rule out marriage or kids, but it wasn’t the #1 goal of my life. As far back as I can remember, I wanted to go to college and see the world. I went to BYU, even got a master’s degree and didn’t get married. I hardly had dates anyways.

I did manage to see much of the world before I got married at the ripe old age of 30. I have two beautiful children, and I am a working mom. Now that I am in the trenches of motherhood, I know that I never would have been happy has a stay at home mother. Fortunately I have a job where I can take days off and “pretend” to be a stay at home mom. Those are always fun days, but I certainly could not do it every day.

Oh yes, this brings me back to my YW days… We were always focused on homemaking skills while the boys played sports…

I loathed the activities we had to do in YW. We were always doing crafts and learning homemaking skills. Yuck. I was never a crafty person and never liked anything that we did. The YM always had more fun doing scouting related stuff and playing sports.

BTW, congratulations on your engagement, Patty! It sure is nice that all of your Mormon friends will be able to attend your wedding ceremony even though we are all “unworthy” to attend LDS temple weddings.

 

[LivingWaters7]

It sure is nice that all of your Mormon friends will be able to attend your wedding ceremony even though we are all “unworthy” to attend LDS temple weddings.

I just don’t know how they do it. I went to a friend’s sealing, and it was nice to witness. Meanwhile, many people were outside the temple waiting (his father didn’t bother coming, he’s no longer LDS, but he was at the reception), and his siblings, who were not endowed yet, went to do baptisms for the dead while their brother was being married.

 

[TOmNossor]

I just don’t know how they do it. I went to a friend’s sealing, and it was nice to witness. Meanwhile, many people were outside the temple waiting (his father didn’t bother coming, he’s no longer LDS, but he was at the reception), and his siblings, who were not endowed yet, went to do baptisms for the dead while their brother was being married.

I am very sympathetic to the inability to witness (I would say act as a witness) of a LDS temple marriage and how this is hurtful to many. Were I suddenly able to provide a recommendation to God concerning this issue I really do not know what I would say though.
I have always viewed this as, attendance at a sealing is actually participation in the sealing as we are sealed into God’s family. Thus it is not so much about worthiness (though I readily acknowledge this is how it is spoken of inside and outside the church), but about being within the sealed community as defined by having a current temple recommend. The person who is the “temple sealer” must have keys, but all in attendance must be in the community. Many churches require the person who performs the marriage ceremony to possess certain authority/priesthood/… I merely see the LDS practice as an extension of this requirement.
While my sympathy for the plight of those who are excluded urges me towards some change, I am concerned about anything that in anyone’s mind could make the marriage of man and woman less about a covenant before God and a sealing into God’s covenant family and more about either the individuals or about human beings in general.
Anyway, that is how I look at it. (And how I do it.)
Charity, TOm

 

[Stephen168]

I just don’t know how they do it. I went to a friend’s sealing, and it was nice to witness. Meanwhile, many people were outside the temple waiting (his father didn’t bother coming, he’s no longer LDS, but he was at the reception), and his siblings, who were not endowed yet, went to do baptisms for the dead while their brother was being married.

My Mormon friend was Best man at my wedding, and he reciprocated by letting me be Best Man at his receptions.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Catholic baptism seals a person to Christ, and so we are all one family of God. Yet, when a person is baptized anyone can attend. The presence of non-baptized doesn’t, and can’t, change the Sacrament. I don’t understand why you would think a non-Mormon at a wedding sealing would affect the ordinance. Does a non-believer cancel out the ordinance? Or what?

As for Mormon marriages, I’ve been to many LDS receptions. Since I didn’t witness the marriage, I take the word for the people that are there that the couple actually got married. From the POV I’m given, I have no idea if they actually got married!

A community witnesses a wedding together, and then celebrates together. Mormon weddings are, sorry, bizarre. A handful of people witness the wedding, and then people celebrate something they’re just told about. Not very communal, at all.

 

[Stephen168]

Catholic baptism seals a person to Christ, and so we are all one family of God. Yet, when a person is baptized anyone can attend. The presence of non-baptized doesn’t, and can’t, change the Sacrament. I don’t understand why you would think a non-Mormon at a wedding sealing would affect the ordinance. Does a non-believer cancel out the ordinance? Or what?

As for Mormon marriages, I’ve been to many LDS receptions. Since I didn’t witness the marriage, I take the word for the people that are there that the couple actually got married. From the POV I’m given, I have no idea if they actually got married!

A community witnesses a wedding together, and then celebrates together. Mormon weddings are, sorry, bizarre. A handful of people witness the wedding, and then people celebrate something they’re just told about. Not very communal, at all.

I found it odd to be the Best man at a wedding I didn’t see.

I didn’t think about it until I read your post that when I got married, weddings like funerals were open to the whole community but you were invited to the reception. So there were more people at my wedding than at the reception. Now is seems like wedding and reception are the same event. Never thought about a Mormon wedding were there could be more people at the reception.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I found it odd to be the Best man at a wedding I didn’t see.

I didn’t think about it until I read your post that when I got married, weddings like funerals were open to the whole community but you were invited to the reception. So there were more people at my wedding than at the reception. Now is seems like wedding and reception are the same event. Never thought about a Mormon wedding were there could be more people at the reception.

Yeah, the normal etiquette for wedding is, if you’re invited to the wedding and reception, you don’t skip the wedding and then show up at the reception. That would be considered very rude. Here in UT, a lot of Mormons don’t know this etiquette and will only attend a reception when they’ve invited to both. (Gasp!)

When I was married, it was not in a Mormon temple, but keeping to how Mormons do things, my mom worked with me to make a list of who was invited to the wedding. This consisted of family and close friends, and then, an expanded list of every Tom/Dick/Jane who were invited to the reception. There were so many people at the reception that I didn’t know!

To invite someone to a reception but not to a wedding would not make Miss Manners happy! To attend a reception only when invited to both the wedding and reception, would make Miss Manners faint.

 

[TowardTruth]

Oops, nevermind. You already answered my question.

 

[iepuras]

I am very sympathetic to the inability to witness (I would say act as a witness) of a LDS temple marriage and how this is hurtful to many. Were I suddenly able to provide a recommendation to God concerning this issue I really do not know what I would say though.
I have always viewed this as, attendance at a sealing is actually participation in the sealing as we are sealed into God’s family. Thus it is not so much about worthiness (though I readily acknowledge this is how it is spoken of inside and outside the church), but about being within the sealed community as defined by having a current temple recommend.

Then why are non-temple recommend holders expected to wait outside the temple? (They aren’t even given proper accommodations to wait inside away from the elements. I sweat a lot waiting outside the temple while my sister got married in the middle of the Texas summer). If they are not part of the “sealed community” why are they expected to even wait outside the temple, attend a reception and give gifts? Why is it that those of us outside the “sealed community” are expected to bless and support the “sealed community” while being purposely excluded from said “sealed community”? It is extraordinarily rude. And those of us who are not part of the “sealed community” are expected to be quiet about the “sealed community” being blatantly rude to us.

The person who is the “temple sealer” must have keys, but all in attendance must be in the community. Many churches require the person who performs the marriage ceremony to possess certain authority/priesthood/… I merely see the LDS practice as an extension of this requirement.
While my sympathy for the plight of those who are excluded urges me towards some change, I am concerned about anything that in anyone’s mind could make the marriage of man and woman less about a covenant before God and a sealing into God’s covenant family and more about either the individuals or about human beings in general.
Anyway, that is how I look at it. (And how I do it.)
Charity, TOm

I don’t have a gripe with the LDS church requiring LDS marriages to be performed with certain priesthood authority. That is their prerogative. But it is not the same as excluding non-temple recommend holders from attending LDS temple weddings.

 

[TOmNossor]

Then why are non-temple recommend holders expected to wait outside the temple? (They aren’t even given proper accommodations to wait inside away from the elements. I sweat a lot waiting outside the temple while my sister got married in the middle of the Texas summer). If they are not part of the “sealed community” why are they expected to even wait outside the temple, attend a reception and give gifts? Why is it that those of us outside the “sealed community” are expected to bless and support the “sealed community” while being purposely excluded from said “sealed community”? It is extraordinarily rude. And those of us who are not part of the “sealed community” are expected to be quiet about the “sealed community” being blatantly rude to us.

I am sorry for the pain and discomfort that resulted from this. I truly am. I wish I knew a perfect solution (and truth be told, I wish the Pope and the Prophet would do what the Pope and the Patriarch have never succeeded at, but …). At our temple, there is an indoor waiting area, but I expect this is not universal. Many temples have a visitor center (ours doesn’t), but I know that is not universal.

I don’t have a gripe with the LDS church requiring LDS marriages to be performed with certain priesthood authority. That is their prerogative. But it is not the same as excluding non-temple recommend holders from attending LDS temple weddings.

It is precisely my position that the witnesses are not just “witnesses,” but are in fact participant who must be part of the faith community just as much as the Catholic priest must be part of the Catholic faith community (AND also ordained) to be involved in the marriage ceremony. The Catholic who is married (without a special dispensation from the Bishop) by a non-Catholic is not sacramentally married. The LDS should be sealed by a sealer and with witnesses who are in the faith community.
It IMO is critical for LDS and Catholics to recognize that marriage is not something two people do, but a covenantal relationship that includes God. To make changes in the LDS sealing procedures to the extent that it decreases the clarity of this truth (within a society that is RADICALLY decreasing this aspect of marriage) seems potentially unwise to me.
But, I see the perspective you offer and I have always been moved by this, just not to the point of advocating a change.
Charity, TOm

 

[PaulDupre1]

Then why are non-temple recommend holders expected to wait outside the temple? (They aren’t even given proper accommodations to wait inside away from the elements. I sweat a lot waiting outside the temple while my sister got married in the middle of the Texas summer).

Many of the temples now have a heathen holding cell inside where you get to watch the faith-promoting videos that are always playing. The brethren have heard the cries of the unfaithful and have responded.

 

[iepuras]

I am sorry for the pain and discomfort that resulted from this. I truly am. I wish I knew a perfect solution (and truth be told, I wish the Pope and the Prophet would do what the Pope and the Patriarch have never succeeded at, but …). At our temple, there is an indoor waiting area, but I expect this is not universal. Many temples have a visitor center (ours doesn’t), but I know that is not universal.

It is precisely my position that the witnesses are not just “witnesses,” but are in fact participant who must be part of the faith community just as much as the Catholic priest must be part of the Catholic faith community (AND also ordained) to be involved in the marriage ceremony. The Catholic who is married (without a special dispensation from the Bishop) by a non-Catholic is not sacramentally married. The LDS should be sealed by a sealer and with witnesses who are in the faith community.
It IMO is critical for LDS and Catholics to recognize that marriage is not something two people do, but a covenantal relationship that includes God. To make changes in the LDS sealing procedures to the extent that it decreases the clarity of this truth (within a society that is RADICALLY decreasing this aspect of marriage) seems potentially unwise to me.
But, I see the perspective you offer and I have always been moved by this, just not to the point of advocating a change.
Charity, TOm

Frankly, your feeling sorry does not move me, especially since you are not sorry enough to actually advocate for any changes. There is no need to feel sorry for me anyway as I made a conscious choice to not be “temple worthy”. I left the LDS after my sister got engaged. I considered lying for the 6 months necessary to attend her temple sealing but decided I could not lie. I wanted to flee Mormonism immediately.

If Mormons are going to be so exclusive with temple weddings, then they should stop expecting the “unworthy” to support the couple through reception attendance and gifts.

 

[iepuras]

Many of the temples now have a heathen holding cell inside where you get to watch the faith-promoting videos that are always playing. The brethren have heard the cries of the unfaithful and have responded.

Lol. The Houston temple has such a holding cell but it is not very big. If it was a busy wedding day, there would not be enough room for all the heathen and the TBM children they are watching.

The Dallas temple has no such holding cell.