This is what is frustrating about the resurrection

[tweedlealice]

Agape,
Open the eyes of my heart, Lord. Open the eyes of my heart. Please let me see you, please let me see you. And Ill be high and lifted up and Your train will fill the temple. I’ll be high and lifted up and Your train will fill the temple. I want to see you I want to see you. (song) if some lyrics are wrong, I’m sorry.

The Holy Spirit leads us to Jesus and opens our eyes. Somewhere in your life you WILL have an Epiphany. I am old 67 yo. I was blessed w a free parochial school education. I went to a Catholic Nursing school. It was cheap in 1966. I always loved Jesus. There was the crucifix and the story of why Jesus was on the cross. I am from Philly. On Holy Thursday, my family would do a pilgrimage around the neighborhood. Our Lady of Czestochowa, a Polish church, had a life size statue of Jesus having been scourged. I was maybe 5yo. Hunks of bloody muscle were hanging off His back which I touched. I knew it was a statue but I knew Jesus went through this for me. I cried. There was no doubt. Do you know for 1 min at noon or 3 pm, all public transportation stopped in Philly to honor his death. Probably 3PM time. A man who could stop traffic in Philly. Where are we today. We’d run over His broken body. Find a Charismatic Prayer group or Conference that will awaken the Holy Spirit in you that you received at Confirmation.
I received the gift of tongues, just for me at special times of special prayer. I have had correct words of knowledge once. When I lay hands on people in pain, with their permission, God will remove their pain most of the time. Sometimes it lessens. Sometimes it comes back. Sometimes it gone for good. He directs my paths. I had to go to an aglow seminar years ago in Mass. My husband was misbehaving w PTSD after Viet Nam. His female friend told me not to go, as he was changing friends. God told me through scripture to “Let the dead bury the dead.” God put me in a room w another woman who had an affair w her pastor. The pastor’s wife was in the next room. My room mate had been the church secretary. Everyone was friends and healed and that is how God works and that is why there is a God. I will be celebrating 48yrs of marriage in Aug.
I have so much to say to give PRAISE REPORTS. Seeing angels unawares, where they saved my life. There is an active spiritual world. Read Jeremiah 29:11 and Ephesians 3:13-14. I am fond of those scriptures. All the rest is faith. FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THINGS UNSEEN,something, something, HOPED FOR." GOOGLE IT.
IN CHRISTS’ LOVE
TWEEDLEALICE

 

[Lion_IRC]

The Resurrection isn’t the only miracle in the bible.
Surely the unbeliever needs every single divine act verified to the same standard of proof.

And that leaves you with a scenario in which God has to individually persuade every single skeptic in every generation - and even then, many will doubt what they see with their own eyes, preferring instead some “natural” explanation.

It becomes ludicrous when… “Jesus was abducted by aliens” is seen as a more plausible ‘natural’ explanation than…they saw an angel at His empty tomb.

 

[davidv]

But the problem is he’s NOT giving more information and greater clarity about the truth or falsehood of the resurrection. Telling me to give as he gives when the problem is that he hasn’t given doesn’t really work.

You are forgetting the greatest gift possible. He gave you life and a share of His power to shape your life. Will you shape your life in accord with His will, or will you insist on having it your way? You free to do either.

 

[tweedlealice]

Agape,
Open the eyes of my heart, Lord. Open the eyes of my heart. Please let me see you, please let me see you. And Ill be high and lifted up and Your train will fill the temple. I’ll be high and lifted up and Your train will fill the temple. I want to see you I want to see you. (song) if some lyrics are wrong, I’m sorry.

The Holy Spirit leads us to Jesus and opens our eyes. Somewhere in your life you WILL have an Epiphany. I am old 67 yo. I was blessed w a free parochial school education. I went to a Catholic Nursing school. It was cheap in 1966. I always loved Jesus. There was the crucifix and the story of why Jesus was on the cross. I am from Philly. On Holy Thursday, my family would do a pilgrimage around the neighborhood. Our Lady of Czestochowa, a Polish church, had a life size statue of Jesus having been scourged. I was maybe 5yo. Hunks of bloody muscle were hanging off His back which I touched. I knew it was a statue but I knew Jesus went through this for me. I cried. There was no doubt. Do you know for 1 min at noon or 3 pm, all public transportation stopped in Philly to honor his death. Probably 3PM time. A man who could stop traffic in Philly. Where are we today. We’d run over His broken body. Find a Charismatic Prayer group or Conference that will awaken the Holy Spirit in you that you received at Confirmation.
I received the gift of tongues, just for me at special times of special prayer. I have had correct words of knowledge once. When I lay hands on people in pain, with their permission, God will remove their pain most of the time. Sometimes it lessens. Sometimes it comes back. Sometimes it gone for good. He directs my paths. I had to go to an aglow seminar years ago in Mass. My husband was misbehaving w PTSD after Viet Nam. His female friend told me not to go, as he was changing friends. God told me through scripture to “Let the dead bury the dead.” God put me in a room w another woman who had an affair w her pastor. The pastor’s wife was in the next room. My room mate had been the church secretary. Everyone was friends and healed and that is how God works and that is why there is a God. I will be celebrating 48yrs of marriage in Aug.
I have so much to say to give PRAISE REPORTS. Seeing angels unawares, where they saved my life. There is an active spiritual world. Read Jeremiah 29:11 and Ephesians 3:13-14. I am fond of those scriptures. All the rest is faith. FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR,THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN.

IN CHRISTS’ LOVE
TWEEDLEALICE

 

[pianistclare]

So everybody who died before Christ’s resurrection never got to see ‘proof’.

And we’ve had nearly 2000 years since, and a handful (I think Scripture says about 500 all together, according to St Paul) saw Him after the resurrection.

Interestingly enough, while Martha and Mary and Lazarus of Bethany are mentioned prominently in the gospels, there is no mention specifically that they saw Jesus after the resurrection. There isn’t even mention that Mary His Mother saw Him. What about Zaccheus? What about the rich young man? How about the lepers He cleansed, the blind man whose sight He restored? The paralyzed man? Joseph of Arimathea, who supplied the tomb?

We don’t know if those who believed in Him and were personally healed by Him ever saw Him after His resurrection. We don’t know, regarding most of them, even with Sacred Tradition, if after their healing, they continued in grace or if they fell into sin, even mortal sin, again. It could be that after Christ healed the paralyzed man and told him that his sins were forgiven, that 5 or 10 years later, after the man began to ‘live it up’ as a whole and healthy man, that he completely forgot about Christ.

So the idea that somehow if YOU (generic you) knew "for sure’, because Christ decided to give YOU the chance to put your fingers into the nail marks and your hand into His side so that you knew 100% He was God, and didn’t have to rely on simple faith, you’d turn into some uber Christian, whereas if you don’t have that guarantee you’ll just pfft through life and really, it’s CHRIST’S FAULT if you do because HE didn’t care enough to keep on repeating “whoop here I am” to all and sundry over the last 2000 years, is bogus. It really is.

Come on, when Jesus walked the earth people saw Him do signs and wonders, and they still yelled “Crucify Him”. . . what makes people think they’d not do the same today?

Wasn’t Mary in the upper room with the Apostles?

 

[midori]

Couldn’t I form the habit of associating things around me with Jesus regardless of whether he was actually raised from the dead or not? This is poetic, but not really what I’m talking about.

shrug I was in undergrad when I had my first experience that I could point to and say “WOW.” Yet I was probably 30 before my sister mentioned something that had happened when we were in high school. I had always considered it to have been a “poetic imagining”, yet she described the whole thing I imagined perfectly in every way as something that she had truly experienced herself at the same time… without me ever sharing my imagining with anyone. It took 15 years for me to realize I’d had a WOW experience and hadn’t even recognized it as such, and it took me another couple of years before I bothered mentioning to her that I’d experienced the same thing.

My son was 4 when he had his first couple of Experiences that I know of. And they weren’t necessarily for his benefit… they were for me, I presume, because almost two years later, he has no recollection of them, but they’re things that I continue to turn over in my heart to this day, and they were the culmination of a different Experience I’d had.

Moms, Sisters, Grandmas, Great-Grandmas… plenty of people in your ordinary circle of acquaintances have had WOW experiences. And you generally keep them to yourself. And you certainly don’t go out of your way looking for them or inviting them into your life. But each spark of Encounter serves its own purpose.

Your complaint is, “God is too ambiguous because he hasn’t sat down with me for coffee and explained everything.” And your follow-up complaint is, “Gosh, if I start looking for Jesus where Jesus says he would be found, I might start imagining things!!!” We’re all very limited by the bounds of our five senses, yet when God wants to be blindingly obvious, he’ll find a way to do it. In the meantime, it’s generally prudent to keep our heads down, our noses clean, and our hearts humble, and do our best to do God’s work on earth.

 

[Frankenfurter]

I’d like to know if it’s true or not, but there is just not enough solid information to make that determination. Moreover, if a personal God exists, he could provide the additional information. If the Bible is to be believed, he did just that when Thomas doubted. But he is silent, or acting in ways that preserve the ambiguity rather than dispelling it. If that ambiguity is necessary (to preserve free will, for example), why was it not necessary for Thomas, or the other disciples who got many postmortem appearances from Jesus? Saying that he is present in the Holy Spirit just seems like a cop-out.

Please contemplate how Jesus answered this same question when he was asked (from John 14):

19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

So you see, the Father will in fact show himself to you as you are seeking. He said that if you obey his teachings, he will make a home with you.

Perhaps in some faith traditions, reason/logic/rationality is the highest form of human knowledge. But in Christianity, it is more personal since you will be coming to know God with your heart, soul, emotions, AND logic and reason.

So coming to know God is far more intimate than you are expecting. But in order to receive, you must obey his teachings. So the first move is yours. Good luck in your journey.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Wasn’t Mary in the upper room with the Apostles?

A keen observation on your part Acts 1:13 - 1:15
Mary was clearly there.

 

[thistle]

I’d like to know if it’s true or not, but there is just not enough solid information to make that determination. Moreover, if a personal God exists, he could provide the additional information. If the Bible is to be believed, he did just that when Thomas doubted. But he is silent, or acting in ways that preserve the ambiguity rather than dispelling it. If that ambiguity is necessary (to preserve free will, for example), why was it not necessary for Thomas, or the other disciples who got many postmortem appearances from Jesus? Saying that he is present in the Holy Spirit just seems like a cop-out.

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm

 

[NormalBeliever]

I’d like to know if it’s true or not, but there is just not enough solid information to make that determination. Moreover, if a personal God exists, he could provide the additional information. If the Bible is to be believed, he did just that when Thomas doubted. But he is silent, or acting in ways that preserve the ambiguity rather than dispelling it. If that ambiguity is necessary (to preserve free will, for example), why was it not necessary for Thomas, or the other disciples who got many postmortem appearances from Jesus? Saying that he is present in the Holy Spirit just seems like a cop-out.

I think this might help:christianthinktank.com/adam01.html

It isn’t about the Resurrection or anything like that,but it does explain certain things,including the need for more certainty of proof for believing in God.

I hope this helps.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’d like to know if it’s true or not, but there is just not enough solid information to make that determination.

I’d like to be sure that you are familiar with the full range of circumstantial evidence which, IMO, is sufficient to justify the conviction that Jesus rose from the dead. Here you go:

The Evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection
By William Lane Craig
youtube.com/watch?v=4iyxR8uE9GQ

Fact 1:

After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea in his personal tomb. This is significant because it would have been difficult for the disciples to make up the story of an empty tomb when everyone knew where the tomb was located.

1. 
   *]Jesus’ burial is attested in the very old tradition quoted by Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.
   “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.” (1 Co 15:3-5)
   Paul “received” this account from Peter within the first five years of Jesus’ crucifixion making the possibility of legend or myth very unlikely.
   *]The account of the burial is part of very old source material used by Mark in writing his gospel. The passion narrative, in particular, is thought to be from an even earlier account that was used by all of the gospel writers.
   *]As a member of the Jewish court that condemned Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea is unlikely to be a Christian invention.
   *]No competing burial story exists.
   
   Fact 2:
   
   On the Sunday following the crucifixion, the tomb of Jesus was found empty by a group of his female followers.
   1. 
      *]The empty tomb story is part of the very old source material used by Mark.
      *]The old tradition cited by Paul in 1 Corinthians implies the fact of the empty tomb.
      *]Mark’s story is simple and lacks signs of legendary embellishment.
      *]The fact that women’s testimony was worthless in first century Palestine strengthens the case that women were the first to discover the empty tomb. Why would any account use the suspect testimony of women if it were not an accurate recounting of what really happened?
      *]The earliest Jewish allegations that the disciples had stolen Jesus’ body presupposes that the tomb was empty.
      
      Fact 3:
      
      On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups experienced appearances of Jesus alive after his death.
      1. 
         *]The list of eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection appearances (which is quoted by Paul and vouchsafed by his personal acquaintance with many of the people involved), guarantees that such appearances occurred. These included appearances to Peter, to the Apostles, to 500 people at one time, and to James.
         *]The appearance traditions in the gospels provide multiple, independent attestation to these appearances.
         *]Researchers have noticed signs of historical credibility in the specific appearances; for example, the unexpected activity of the disciples’ fishing prior to Jesus’ appearance by the Lake of Tiberius or the otherwise inexplicable conversion of James.
         
         Fact 4:
         
         The disciples believed that Jesus was risen from the dead despite having every reason not to believe it.
         1. 
            *]Their leader was dead, and Jews had no belief in a dying (and rising) Messiah.
            *]According to Jewish law, Jesus’ execution as a criminal showed him to be a heretic and a man literally under the curse of God.
            *]Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded anyone’s rising from the dead before the general resurrection at the end of the world.
            
            The historical resurrection of Jesus is the best explanation of these facts.

 

[vsedriver]

I think this might help:christianthinktank.com/adam01.html

It isn’t about the Resurrection or anything like that,but it does explain certain things,including the need for more certainty of proof for believing in God.

I hope this helps.

what do you think about Jesus’ parable about Lazarus and the Rich Man?

Luke 16:31 Then Abraham said to him, “If they will not listen either to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead.”

Here’s what I think it means: If you do not believe those who knew Jesus and passed their knowledge on to their successors you will not believe even if God appears to you himself.

Having had a near death experience, I will can only say that I have no doubt in the existence of God.

 

[DCNBILL]

I’d like to be sure that you are familiar with the full range of circumstantial evidence which, IMO, is sufficient to justify the conviction that Jesus rose from the dead. Here you go:

The Evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection
By William Lane Craig
youtube.com/watch?v=4iyxR8uE9GQ

Fact 1:

After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea in his personal tomb. This is significant because it would have been difficult for the disciples to make up the story of an empty tomb when everyone knew where the tomb was located.

1. 
   *]Jesus’ burial is attested in the very old tradition quoted by Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.
   “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.” (1 Co 15:3-5)
   Paul “received” this account from Peter within the first five years of Jesus’ crucifixion making the possibility of legend or myth very unlikely.
   *]The account of the burial is part of very old source material used by Mark in writing his gospel. The passion narrative, in particular, is thought to be from an even earlier account that was used by all of the gospel writers.
   *]As a member of the Jewish court that condemned Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea is unlikely to be a Christian invention.
   *]No competing burial story exists.
   
   Fact 2:
   
   On the Sunday following the crucifixion, the tomb of Jesus was found empty by a group of his female followers.
   1. 
      *]The empty tomb story is part of the very old source material used by Mark.
      *]The old tradition cited by Paul in 1 Corinthians implies the fact of the empty tomb.
      *]Mark’s story is simple and lacks signs of legendary embellishment.
      *]The fact that women’s testimony was worthless in first century Palestine strengthens the case that women were the first to discover the empty tomb. Why would any account use the suspect testimony of women if it were not an accurate recounting of what really happened?
      *]The earliest Jewish allegations that the disciples had stolen Jesus’ body presupposes that the tomb was empty.
      
      Fact 3:
      
      On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups experienced appearances of Jesus alive after his death.
      1. 
         *]The list of eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection appearances (which is quoted by Paul and vouchsafed by his personal acquaintance with many of the people involved), guarantees that such appearances occurred. These included appearances to Peter, to the Apostles, to 500 people at one time, and to James.
         *]The appearance traditions in the gospels provide multiple, independent attestation to these appearances.
         *]Researchers have noticed signs of historical credibility in the specific appearances; for example, the unexpected activity of the disciples’ fishing prior to Jesus’ appearance by the Lake of Tiberius or the otherwise inexplicable conversion of James.
         
         Fact 4:
         
         The disciples believed that Jesus was risen from the dead despite having every reason not to believe it.
         1. 
            *]Their leader was dead, and Jews had no belief in a dying (and rising) Messiah.
            *]According to Jewish law, Jesus’ execution as a criminal showed him to be a heretic and a man literally under the curse of God.
            *]Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded anyone’s rising from the dead before the general resurrection at the end of the world.
            
            The historical resurrection of Jesus is the best explanation of these facts.

1. 1. 1. 1. 
            I would add to this the reaction of the disciples after they encountered the risen Lord.
            
            One day they were cowering in a locked room for fear that they would be the next ones killed. The next day they were out in the streets and in the Temple preaching the Gospel.
            
            What else could have caused this sudden change in their behavior other than their encounter with the risen Lord? Well maybe it was all that wine left over from that wedding 3 years prior, that was never really accounted for to my satisfaction.

 

[Dorothy]

I would add to this the reaction of the disciples after they encountered the risen Lord.

One day they were cowering in a locked room for fear that they would be the next ones killed. The next day they were out in the streets and in the Temple preaching the Gospel.

What else could have caused this sudden change in their behavior other than their encounter with the risen Lord? Well maybe it was all that wine left over from that wedding 3 years prior, that was never really accounted for to my satisfaction.

Amen…the wine of the Holy Spirit!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Wasn’t Mary in the upper room with the Apostles?

Yes. But I’m saying specifically seeing Jesus as Jesus. The Holy Spirit came upon the apostles and Mary, Jesus (while He is of course also God, as is the Spirit, is not the Spirit).

 

[Tantum_ergo]

A keen observation on your part Acts 1:13 - 1:15
Mary was clearly there.

I’ll repeat, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are both God, but Jesus is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not Jesus. I mentioned that there is no specific Scriptural support that Jesus, after His resurrection, was seen by Mary His Mother (or Joseph of Arimathea, or Nicodemus, or Zaccheus, or Mary, Martha, and Lazarus of Bethany, etc. etc.) There is no mention in Scripture that I can think of, off the top of my head, that Jesus saw His mother after the resurrection (mentioning her specifically). Of course, I believe that He certainly DID, but we don’t know for sure.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Well, personally, if I KNEW for a fact, and saw with my own tow eyes, I can honestly say, I would be a changed person from then on!!

Something else too, Jesus obviously had no problems showing people what he could do back when he walked the earth for 33 years…he performed all kinds of miracles right in front of people, whether they believed or not, they still saw the same thing with their own eyes, so in a sense, he DID have to show off a bit in order to gain such a following, ask yourself how many followers he would have gotten if he did NO miracles, no healing on the spot, nothing supernatural, and required them all to ONLY rely on faith in this new religion he was speaking about…what would that result have been?

Are you sure you would be changed? Many who saw Jesus perform these miracles–didn’t become his followers, but continued in their old way of life. One of his closest followers betrayed him. Revisit the Gospel of John chapter 6 – you’ll see many of his followers leave him over a difficult teaching. Why do so many assume they’d somehow be different–if only they could just see a miracle or two? Many people attract followers without miracles–Jesus miracles were not performed to attract followers. I tend to think that if Christ came back in all his power and glory tomorrow and revealing himself–many would at some point dismiss him and say his teachings are just too hard–they’re fine living how they’re living–they’d find a way to walk away–as did the rich young man and many of his disciples.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

Naturally, things would be different. Then I would believe that Christianity is true, and I would act accordingly.

I am seeking greater information precisely so I can avoid grave misunderstandings. Telling me I’ve misunderstood highlights the problem without solving it.

Are you sure things would be different? They weren’t for many who saw and followed Jesus for a while before leaving to return to their old lives. They weren’t for those like the rich young man who wanted to follow Jesus but didn’t want to do what was required. I don’t think we should be so quick to assume we’d be any different–I know it is true I’d be healthier if I ate better and exercised more–doesn’t mean that I do it though.

I think the resurrection is the key–start there and truly ask what best fits the evidence we have. If it is true–well then there are decisions to be made.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[StrawberryJam]

Are you sure things would be different? They weren’t for many who saw and followed Jesus for a while before leaving to return to their old lives. They weren’t for those like the rich young man who wanted to follow Jesus but didn’t want to do what was required. I don’t think we should be so quick to assume we’d be any different–I know it is true I’d be healthier if I ate better and exercised more–doesn’t mean that I do it though.

I think the resurrection is the key–start there and truly ask what best fits the evidence we have. If it is true–well then there are decisions to be made.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Never start out with a conclusion and then work your way back to find facts to support your conclusion.
That’s doing it wrong.