This is what you called the Martin Luther's "Tower Experience" by himself!

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Meanwhile in that same year, 1519, I had begun interpreting the Psalms once again. I felt confident that I was now more
experienced, since I had dealt in university courses with St. Paul’s Letters to the Romans, to the Galatians, and the Letter to the Hebrews. I had conceived a burning desire to understand what Paul meant in his Letter to the Romans, but thus far there had stood in my way, not the cold blood around my heart, but that one word which is in chapter one: “The justice of God is revealed in it.” I hated that word, “justice of God,” which, by the use and custom of all my teachers, I had been taught to understand philosophically as referring to formal or active justice, as they call it, i.e., that justice by which God is just and by which he punishes sinners and the unjust.

But I, blameless monk that I was, felt that before God I was a sinner with an extremely troubled conscience. I couldn’t be sure that God was appeased by my satisfaction. I did not love, no, rather I hated the just God who punishes sinners. In silence, if I did not blaspheme, then certainly I grumbled vehemently and got angry at God. I said, “Isn’t it enough that we miserable sinners, lost for all eternity because of original sin, are oppressed by every kind of calamity through the Ten Commandments? Why does God heap sorrow upon sorrow through the Gospel and through the Gospel threaten us with his justice and his wrath?” This was how I was raging with wild and disturbed conscience. I constantly badgered St. Paul about that spot in Romans 1 and anxiously wanted to know what he meant.

I meditated night and day on those words until at last, by the mercy of God, I paid attention to their context: “The justice of God is revealed in it, as it is written: ‘The just person lives by faith.’” I began to understand that in this verse the justice of God is that by which the just person lives by a gift of God, that is by faith. I began to understand that this verse means that the justice of God is revealed through the Gospel, but it is a passive justice, i.e. that by which the merciful God justifies us by faith, as it is written: “The just person lives by faith.” All at once I felt that I had been born again and entered into paradise itself through open gates. Immediately I saw the whole of Scripture in a different light. I ran through the Scriptures from memory and found that other terms had analogous meanings, e.g., the work of God, that is, what God works in us; the power of God, by which he makes us powerful; the wisdom of God, by which he makes us wise; the strength of God, the salvation of God, the glory of God.

I exalted this sweetest word of mine, “the justice of God,” with as much love as before I had hated it with hate. This phrase of Paul was for me the very gate of paradise. Afterward I read Augustine’s “On the Spirit and the Letter,” in which I found what I had not dared hope for. I discovered that he too interpreted “the justice of God” in a similar way, namely, as that with which God clothes us when he justifies us. Although Augustine had said it imperfectly and did not explain in detail how God imputes justice to us, still it pleased me that he taught the justice of God by which we are justified.
 
Do you have a question? :confused:

Being a 16 year old Filipino with limited English skills, do you have a verson of this in Tagalog?

What’s this post in reference to?
 
actually it depends on the reader hahahah!!!
thanks for your concern !!!
okay what is your views about this?

thanks!!
 
Very interesting post. I’m not sure if you had a question or a comment about it, OP. If you don’t, I do have a question.

Where exactly did Luther go wrong here? At what point does his reasoning-- as described above-- break with the Church’s teaching on justification and/or the justice of God? I just ask because I can see how someone could read this and think that it sounds pretty feasible. Yet we know it’s actually heretical. So my question is exactly how is it heretical?
 
My views about what? You’ve posted a lengthy quote from Luther’s writings.

I’m more curious what *your *views are about this?

What’s your question? I’d love to help you out, but that quote encompasses many things which could be discussed.

What shall we tackle first? What drew your attention about it that inspired you to post it?

I don’t have any strong opinions about it either way, that’s why I’m asking. What do you hope that you will accomplish? What part intrigues you the most?

…I’m waiting…:confused:
 
Do you have a question? :confused:

Being a 16 year old Filipino with limited English skills, do you have a verson of this in Tagalog?

What’s this post in reference to?
I’m better at asking where the jeepney goes, but here’s a stab at it in Tagalog:

Samantala sa parehong taon, 1519, ako had sinimulan interpret ang Psalms sa sandaling muli. Nadama ko na ako ay ngayon more
karanasan, dahil ako ay dealt sa unibersidad kurso sa St Paul’s titik sa Roma, sa Galacia, at ang Letter sa Hebreo. Ako had conceived isang nasusunog pagnanais na maunawaan kung ano ang Paul meant sa kanyang Letter sa Roma, ngunit kaya malayo may had stood sa aking paraan, hindi ang malamig na dugo sa paligid ng aking puso, ngunit ang isang salita na kung saan ay sa kabanata ng isa: "Ang hustisya ng Ang Diyos ay nagsiwalat sa mga ito. " Kinasusuklaman ko na salita, “katarungan ng Diyos,” kung saan, sa pamamagitan ng paggamit at mga custom ng lahat ng aking mga guro, ako ay tinuturuan upang maunawaan philosophically bilang tumutukoy sa pormal o aktibong hustisya, habang sila ay tumawag ito, ibig sabihin, na ang hustisya sa pamamagitan ng kung saan ang Diyos ay makatarungan at kung saan siya punishes makasalanan at ang hindi makatarungan.

Pero ako, dapat managot monghe na ako ay, nadama na bago Diyos ako ay isang taong makasalanan sa isang balisang ng kaguluhan budhi. Ako ay hindi maging sigurado na ang Diyos ay appeased sa pamamagitan ng aking kasiyahan. Hindi ko pag-ibig, hindi, sa halip ko kinasusuklaman ang Diyos lamang na punishes makasalanan. Sa katahimikan, kung ako ay hindi lumapastangan sa diyos, at pagkatapos ay tiyak ko grumbled vehemently at got galit sa Diyos. Sinabi ko, "Ay hindi ito sapat na kami malungkot makasalanan, nawala para sa lahat ng kawalang-hanggan dahil sa orihinal na kasalanan, ay pinahihirapan ng bawat uri ng kalamidad sa pamamagitan ng Ten Commandments? Bakit ang Diyos santambak kalungkutan sa kalungkutan sa pamamagitan ng Ebanghelyo at sa pamamagitan ng Ebanghelyo takutin sa amin ng kanyang katarungan at ang kanyang galit? " Ito ay kung paano ko ay raging sa wild at nabalisa budhi. Ako palaging badgered San Pablo tungkol sa mga na spot sa Roma 1 at balisa gustong malaman kung ano siya meant.

Ako meditated gabi at araw sa mga salita hanggang sa wakas, sa pamamagitan ng mga kaawaan ng Diyos, ako binabayaran ng pansin sa kanilang mga kahulugan: “Ang katarungan ng Diyos ay nagsiwalat sa mga ito, na ito ay nakasulat na: ‘Ang mga tao lamang ang buhay sa pamamagitan ng pananampalataya.’” sinimulan ko na maunawaan na sa ganitong tula ang katarungan ng Diyos ay na sa pamamagitan ng kung saan ang tao lamang ang buhay sa pamamagitan ng isang regalo ng Diyos, na sa pamamagitan ng pananampalataya. Sinimulan ko na maunawaan na ang mga taludtod na ito ay nangangahulugan na ang katarungan ng Diyos ay nagsiwalat sa pamamagitan ng Ebanghelyo, ngunit ito ay isang maluwag sa hustisya, ibig sabihin na sa pamamagitan ng kung saan ang Diyos maawain justifies amin sa pamamagitan ng pananampalataya, na ito ay nakasulat na: "Ang mga tao lamang ang buhay sa pamamagitan ng pananampalataya . " Ng sabay-sabay ko nadama na ako ay ipinanganak na muli at ipinasok sa paraiso ang sarili sa pamamagitan ng bukas na gate. Nakita ko agad ang buong ng Banal na Kasulatan sa iba’t-ibang ilaw. Ako ran sa pamamagitan ng Kasulatan mula sa memorya at natagpuan na ang iba pang mga salita ay analogous kahulugan, halimbawa, ang gawain ng Diyos, na, kung ano ang gumagana ng Diyos sa atin, ang kapangyarihan ng Diyos, sa pamamagitan ng kung saan siya ay gumagawa kami ng malakas; ang karunungan ng Diyos, sa pamamagitan ng kung saan siya ay gumagawa kami matalino, ang lakas ng Diyos, ang kaligtasan ng Diyos, sa kaluwalhatian ng Diyos.

Mabunyi ko ito sweetest salita ng mine, “ang katarungan ng Diyos,” na may maraming bilang ng pag-ibig bilang bago ako had kinasusuklaman ito sa hate. Ang parirala ng Paul ay para sa akin ang gate ng langit. Afterward ko basahin Augustine’s “Sa Espiritu at ang Letter,” kung saan ako matatagpuan kung ano ako ay hindi pag-asa para sa dared. Natuklasan ko na siya masyadong interpreted “ang katarungan ng Diyos” sa isang katulad na paraan, namely, bilang na ang mga damit na kung saan ang Diyos sa amin kapag siya justifies amin. Kahit Augustine ay sinabi ito imperfectly at hindi ipaliwanag sa mga detalye kung paano imputes katarungan ng Diyos sa amin, ito pa rin ako natutuwa na siya tinuturuan ng katarungan ng Diyos sa pamamagitan ng kung saan kami ay makatwiran.

Paul
 
I’m better at asking where the jeepney goes, but here’s a stab at it in Tagalog:

Paul
I think you misunderstood 😊.

“heronimo” is the 16 year old with limited English skills, or that’s what he’s claimed in an earlier post on another thread.

*I’m *actually a former college English instructor, so I thought that perhaps if “heronimo” had a Tagalog version of the quote he posted that it might help him to articulate exactly what he wants us all to consider about Luther’s “Tower Experience” which is supposedly what made Luther break with the Catholic Church in the first place.

I’m just saying he threw the Luther quote onto a thread like a bone to starving dogs, perhaps hoping that us Catholics would bicker and argue about it for his enjoyment? I don’t know…

Please, heronimo, correct me if I’m wrong. Your silence is forcing me to guess at your intentions. I’m interested in learning more about Luther, and to be honest, this “Tower Experience” is quite fascinating. But I don’t know enough about it to launch into a diatribe about it all by myself, so I think it’s a valid question to ask you what you’d like us to consider.

Does this translation in Tagalog, so kindly provided to us by T700, help you to get to the heart of what your position is? I’ll comment, but I do need a starting point.

T700: Are you Filipino? I wonder if you might PM heronimo in Tagalog. I don’t want him to feel excluded by a language barrier, and I really want to learn about Luther, especially this pivotal (albeit heretical) event that caused him to break with the Church. You’ve already done so much in translating (nice job! You did that pretty quick!), so I hesitate to ask any more of you.

Peace. I’ll be keeping my eyes open.
 
I think you misunderstood 😊.

“heronimo” is the 16 year old with limited English skills, or that’s what he’s claimed in an earlier post on another thread.

*I’m *actually a former college English instructor, so I thought that perhaps if “heronimo” had a Tagalog version of the quote he posted that it might help him to articulate exactly what he wants us all to consider about Luther’s “Tower Experience” which is supposedly what made Luther break with the Catholic Church in the first place.

I’m just saying he threw the Luther quote onto a thread like a bone to starving dogs, perhaps hoping that us Catholics would bicker and argue about it for his enjoyment? I don’t know…

Please, heronimo, correct me if I’m wrong. Your silence is forcing me to guess at your intentions. I’m interested in learning more about Luther, and to be honest, this “Tower Experience” is quite fascinating. But I don’t know enough about it to launch into a diatribe about it all by myself, so I think it’s a valid question to ask you what you’d like us to consider.

Does this translation in Tagalog, so kindly provided to us by T700, help you to get to the heart of what your position is? I’ll comment, but I do need a starting point.

T700: Are you Filipino? I wonder if you might PM heronimo in Tagalog. I don’t want him to feel excluded by a language barrier, and I really want to learn about Luther, especially this pivotal (albeit heretical) event that caused him to break with the Church. You’ve already done so much in translating (nice job! You did that pretty quick!), so I hesitate to ask any more of you.

Peace. I’ll be keeping my eyes open.
🙂 I’m just a poor boy from Missouri! My darling wife is Filipino, so I’ve picked up a bit of Tagalog in self defense. That knowledge, plus a dictionary, can be a dangerous thing.

Paul
 
What does a long quotation from Martin Luther have to do with traditional Catholicism?
 
Very interesting post. I’m not sure if you had a question or a comment about it, OP. If you don’t, I do have a question.

Where exactly did Luther go wrong here? At what point does his reasoning-- as described above-- break with the Church’s teaching on justification and/or the justice of God? I just ask because I can see how someone could read this and think that it sounds pretty feasible. Yet we know it’s actually heretical. So my question is exactly how is it heretical?
I have to get to work, so I can’t explain it, but I believe where he went wrong was in the term “imputed” justice.
 
I think you misunderstood 😊.

“heronimo” is the 16 year old with limited English skills, or that’s what he’s claimed in an earlier post on another thread.

*I’m *actually a former college English instructor, so I thought that perhaps if “heronimo” had a Tagalog version of the quote he posted that it might help him to articulate exactly what he wants us all to consider about Luther’s “Tower Experience” which is supposedly what made Luther break with the Catholic Church in the first place.

I’m just saying he threw the Luther quote onto a thread like a bone to starving dogs, perhaps hoping that us Catholics would bicker and argue about it for his enjoyment? I don’t know…

Please, heronimo, correct me if I’m wrong. Your silence is forcing me to guess at your intentions. I’m interested in learning more about Luther, and to be honest, this “Tower Experience” is quite fascinating. But I don’t know enough about it to launch into a diatribe about it all by myself, so I think it’s a valid question to ask you what you’d like us to consider.

Does this translation in Tagalog, so kindly provided to us by T700, help you to get to the heart of what your position is? I’ll comment, but I do need a starting point.

T700: Are you Filipino? I wonder if you might PM heronimo in Tagalog. I don’t want him to feel excluded by a language barrier, and I really want to learn about Luther, especially this pivotal (albeit heretical) event that caused him to break with the Church. You’ve already done so much in translating (nice job! You did that pretty quick!), so I hesitate to ask any more of you.

Peace. I’ll be keeping my eyes open.
Well, I’m glad that he did throw it out there for folks to growl over because it’s good to
make people THINK, and that passage certainly did.
I was annoyed when I read that Luther referred to himself as a “blameless” monk.
Those are PRAISE words and, I was taught that you don’t say things like that about yourself, that’s for OTHER people to say.
Luther had some very good points but he was really full of himself, in my humble opinion.
 
His parents were peasants, specifically miners, who presumably made sacrifices so he could go to college. In my estimation he was your typical privileged, spoiled, son and college boy , who would tell a thousand years worth of his predecessors, " You know not so well as I . "
He serves not so well as a poster boy for Christianity, but does serve rather well as a poster boy for the conceit of the modern world, with its general and perennial attitude that our predecessors were backward, ignorant brutes. And a poster boy for the subversion by the secular state of proper hierarchy and allegiances.
Martin Luther does not appear so impressive when one sees that he proved to be a pretty convenient tool for certain north German princes who were just itching to get out from under the thumb of the Pope – which is precisely where they needed to be.

Would it be ok to say precisely and bluntly what I think of him? No, we are obliged to be charitable on this forum.
 
Martin Luther does not appear so impressive when one sees that he proved to be a pretty convenient tool for certain north German princes who were just itching to get out from under the thumb of the Pope – which is precisely where they needed to be.
(boldface mine). Yes, I agree with you whole-heartedly. I remember from a history class the professor saying that Luther really didn’t want to start his own church, but that it was precisely for the reason you give that a church was started in his name.

I don’t mean to be uncharitable to any of our Lutheran brothers and sisters reading this, but that was one of the points made by the professor. I don’t hold this position if only because I haven’t read enough Luther (and perhaps I should start) so thank you, heronimus for starting this thread. It seems the controversy is a-brewin’.
 
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