This is why trads are "angry"

[TNT]

bear06:

Ahhhh!!! I didn’t know it was popular. I may have to change my mind. I’m not into the trendy. The funny thing is that whenever we pick an obscure saint I turn around and find 20 kids with the same name. Hopefully my Caeli Regina will remain unique for awhile longer. She seems to be the only one I can still call on the playground and not have other kids look at me!

**Caeli Regina tooo cool. **
Indeed. I did a search on babynames for Aeternus and came up 000.00. Same for Pastor.
Chaulk up another reason for Aeternus.
BTW:
I often pick trends 6-7 years before they become popular. Yep.
The rest of the time I pick stuff about to bite the death nail. I’ll never forget buying my first u-glue-it model Edsel.

Ok, back to mean-spirited discussions on points that we have absolutely no influence.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Jakub:

My Byzantine brother David,

How many female Eucharistic Ministers do you have at your Church that walk adjacent to the Holy Altar and go to the Holy Tabernacle to retreive and replace Hosts, distribute the Body and Blood of our Lord ? Well I usally have 4 and have not seen a Deacon participate in months. The Priest has taken the role of a presider, I would say that at least 65% of the priests duties have been delegated to the laity, while he sits.

In fact last time I received communion on the tongue the priest was alittle put off. And what has become of the altar servers that were there to catch the stray Particles/Droplets of the Body and Blood of our Lord ? Zero none, nobody cares.

We will get our house in order in time, even here in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, Cardinal Mahony or not.

Please attend to your Byzantine Traditions, let the Roman Catholics attend to theirs.

james

First, I am a Catholic and I will speak on issues relating to the Catholic Church. As I am discerning a calling to religious life and the Carmelites. I will end up, God willings, as a bi-ritual priest as I will be a Byzantine Catholic joining a Latin religious order.

As for the abuses you speak off, they have nothing to do with the Mass, neither the current Mass nor the older rite of the Mass.

So I do not really understand what you are trying to say with this post other than an attempt to tell me to keep quiet.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

EddieArent:

Spit on the face of God? No way. Disobiediant to the Pope. Sure, that act was. But atleast he didn’t kiss a Koran and pray for peace with a bunch of heretics at Assisi. No longer peace through Christ, but peace through Buddha, Allah, et al false relgions. Is that spitting in the face of God?

“I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other Gods besides Me.”

Kissing the Koran was a cultural thing which I can see is lost on you. Just so you know, the Holy Father did not kiss the Qur’an, he was kissing a gift that was given to him. That gift happened to be a Qur’an. This happens to be a custom in that part of the world. You can not look at the world though your cultures views.

As for praying with heretics at Assisi, who were the heretics there?

There were no heretics present at Assisi.

Seems you are one of the many who feels that they are in authority over the Church and the Holy Spirit. The other large group who feel this way are called protestants.

 

[Jakub]

David,

I did not say keep quiet, but the Roman rite laity, if they really care and are faithful, need to push for corrections from their priests and bishops, not just by vocal means but also with written correspondence. If that fails then send all to Rome for appeal and correction. If that fails then its a different story.

Rome let the local bishops operate their dioceses without much supervision, events then went astray. However, if the laity has no knowledge on how their Church should operate they will be in the dark, or maybe they are just ignorant or just don’t care.

Do you believe that the Lord will let those responsible for leading His flock astray go unpunished ?

And David, my rule of prayer is Byzantine.

Peace in Christ,

james

 

[Swiss_Guard]

Nota Bene:

You really don’t seem to get it. No one has any problems with you and others loving the “tlm.” What I and a great many have problems with “tlm’ers” are:

1.) That you know more than the Church when it comes to understanding what is “best.” Many of your positions are just as heterodox as the most ultra-liberal positions you so detest.

Traditionalists can be “Cafeteria Catholics” just like the liberals. Like the liberals, they believe they are justified in taking their positions.

2.) Your laughable insistance that the Tridentine Mass is some sort of silver bullet that would cure all the ills of the Church if it were only made to be the normative Mass.

The problems in the Catholic Church today were first seen by Pope St. Pius X in his encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis (On the Doctrine of the Modernists). St. Pius X correctly identified every error that has manifested itself in the last 40 years. Bringing back the Tridentine Mass would be a step in the right direction, but it would not cure the all the problems. Remember, these problems have been going on for over 100 years.

3.) You inaccurate judgement of the Novus Ordo Mass. (see #1 above.)

I have never understood the need to continually denigrate the Novus Ordo Mass. The Tridentine Mass is so reverent and beautiful it stands on its own. There is no need to even mention the Novus Ordo Mass when promoting the Tridentine Mass.

4.) Your collective ignorance of Church history. The Tridentine Mass is not 2000 years old.

I don’t believe any Traditionalist believes the Tridentine Mass is 2,000 years old. The Mass was codified by St. Pius V but can be traced back to St. Gregory the Great, which makes it about 1,500 years old.

5.) Your sad obsession with Protestants and Masons (applies to few tlm’ers of course.)

I agree they have an unhealthy obsession with Protestants and Masons, as they tend to see a Protestant/Masonic conspiracy in everything. However, the obsession isn’t sad, as there are Masonic elements in the Church today. I don’t believe everything is a Masonic conspiracy, but you should read Leo XIII encyclical Humanum Genus (On Freemasonry) and you’ll understand the dangers Masons still pose to the Church.

6.) Your support of schismatic/heretical elements like the SSPX.

Traditionalist tend to worship the act of worship. Some look at the Tridentine Mass as the Catholic faith, not realizing the Catholic faith means to know, love and serve God in this life and be happy with him forever in the next life. The Tridentine Mass is a means to worship God.

7.) The fact that you aid other hetrodox elements within the Church through your own outrageous (and erroneous) behavior.

The one they aid is the devil, who loves to see dissension in the true Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

ByzCath:

This here sums up my problems with the “rad-Trad” element, especially those who spew here.

First, the Trad Latin Mass is not 2000 years old.

The Tridentine Mass goes back to St. Gregory the Great as I stated in my last post. The Mass is 1,500 years old.

Second, while yes, it was codified by a Saint, he was not a Saint when he codified it so this is a specious argument as no one alive can be a Saint. So there can be a day when the current Mass could be said to have been codifed by a Saint also.

There is a movement to canonize Paul VI because of Humanae Vitae. However, you cannot minimize the fact that it was St. Pius V who codified the Mass. Read his biography and you’ll see he acted as a saintly man during his entire priesthood, especially his pontificate.

Thrid, the mass was not written by a “KNOWN” mason, just putting it in capitals doesn’t make it fact. Also it was not created by protestants, this argument has been dealt with else where, it seems that the “rad-Trads” ignore the past. When their arguments are refuted they continue to spew them in other threads as if they are facts.

They are using the oldest propaganda method: Tell a lie loud enough and long enough and it becomes the truth.

Fourth, doesn’t matter if you or anyone else feel that Pope Paul VI should not have been pope or was unfit to be pope because the Holy Spirit felt otherwise. Here again, not only do the “rad-Trads” raise themselves above the Church in authority, they raise themselves above God.

There are many popes who were probably unfit to be pope, but that doesn’t mean they erred in matters regarding faith and morals. Paul VI didn’t act the way the “Rad-Trads” wanted him to act, so they will only listen to him when he agrees with them, such as promulgating Humanae Vitae. They are “Cafeteria Catholics” just like the liberals.

Seems some people think they have a right to attend the Trad Latin Mass. I believe that the Church has said that all you have a right to is the Mass.

Your belief is wrong, as John Paul II has said the faithful have a right to the Tridentine Mass. He made this clear in his Apostolic letter Ecclesia Dei:

---

To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition, I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the church. (emphasis mine)

---

The problem has been the disobedience of so many bishops regarding the pope’s will in the matter. The faithful have a right to the Tridentine Mass.

Seems people wish to ignore the fact that there is a shortage of priests today. I do not buy the “crisis” story. God is still calling men, men are responding, its just that many vocations do not fit the mold that bishops and religious orders are looking for.

Many men don’t fit the mold bishops and religious orders are looking for in a vocation. Many men are orthodox in their beliefs, faithful to the Holy Father and the Magisterium, and won’t go along with any of the abuses in the Church. Many men being called are also heterosexual, which doesn’t fit the mold of many bishops and religious orders.

---

I don’t believe the crisis. There are many men called to the priesthood, they are just waiting for orthodox bishops to clear out the liberals and homosexuals who have been running the seminaries in this country for the last 30 years. Until this problem is taken care of, vocations will be on the decline.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Jakub:

Do you believe that the Lord will let those responsible for leading His flock astray go unpunished ?

And David, my rule of prayer is Byzantine.

Peace in Christ,

james

James,
It is not for me to decide what God will do but I must add. The ultimate responsibility for teaching the Faith resides with the parents.

The poor catechisis in the Church in America falls on the parents ultimately as it is their responsibility to make sure their children are raised properly in the Faith.

Off track now, what is your rule of prayer?

For myself, I do the Introductory prayers then a stasis of psalms and then the dismissal prayers.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The Tridentine Mass goes back to St. Gregory the Great as I stated in my last post. The Mass is 1,500 years old.

I have to disagree with this. The Mass contained in the 1962 Missal is not 1500 years old. Part of it may be old but things were added. The Last Gospel has not been a part of the Tridentine Mass from the beginning, neither are the prayers at the foot of the altar, nor the St Michael prayer at the end.

There is a movement to canonize Paul VI because of Humanae Vitae. However, you cannot minimize the fact that it was St. Pius V who codified the Mass. Read his biography and you’ll see he acted as a saintly man during his entire priesthood, especially his pontificate.

I am sorry, but I did not state anything about this other than Pope Paul VI may be made a saint some day and if he is then one can say that the current Mass was codifed by a saint.

I do not understand why you bring this up.

They are using the oldest propaganda method: Tell a lie loud enough and long enough and it becomes the truth.

There are many popes who were probably unfit to be pope, but that doesn’t mean they erred in matters regarding faith and morals. Paul VI didn’t act the way the “Rad-Trads” wanted him to act, so they will only listen to him when he agrees with them, such as promulgating Humanae Vitae. They are “Cafeteria Catholics” just like the liberals.

Now I am having trouble understanding what side you are on. Seems to be that you are on both, this could mean that you are a true Trad Catholic, not one of those rad-Trads, but a true Catholic who recoginizes the validity of the Mass but prefers the 1962 Missal.

Your belief is wrong, as John Paul II has said the faithful have a right to the Tridentine Mass. He made this clear in his Apostolic letter Ecclesia Dei:

---

To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition, I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the church. (emphasis mine)

The problem has been the disobedience of so many bishops regarding the pope’s will in the matter. The faithful have a right to the Tridentine Mass.

Your emphasis does not grant a right to the faithful. I do not see any disobedience of bishops who do not allow this Mass. There are other considerations that must be taken pastorally. As I stated above, cost and the avaliblity of a priest to say this Mass under the canon law restrictions of no more than three Masses a day (under some circumstances) just to name two.

Many men don’t fit the mold bishops and religious orders are looking for in a vocation. Many men are orthodox in their beliefs, faithful to the Holy Father and the Magisterium, and won’t go along with any of the abuses in the Church. Many men being called are also heterosexual, which doesn’t fit the mold of many bishops and religious orders.

I don’t believe the crisis. There are many men called to the priesthood, they are just waiting for orthodox bishops to clear out the liberals and homosexuals who have been running the seminaries in this country for the last 30 years. Until this problem is taken care of, vocations will be on the decline.

Yes this is part of the issue, but what I see and have experenced is that most bishops and religious orders are looking for men under 35 who have no debt and have a bachelors degree.

You severly limit your pool with these requirements and requiring a college education and no debt limits the experiences also as the pool of candidates for this will be upper class/very affluent types who really do not always have a grasp of the real world.

 

[katolik]

ByzCath:

I have to disagree with this. The Mass contained in the 1962 Missal is not 1500 years old. Part of it may be old but things were added. The Last Gospel has not been a part of the Tridentine Mass from the beginning, neither are the prayers at the foot of the altar, nor the St Michael prayer at the end.

Now I am having trouble understanding what side you are on. Seems to be that you are on both, this could mean that you are a true Trad Catholic, not one of those rad-Trads, but a true Catholic who recoginizes the validity of the Mass but prefers the 1962 Missal…

So you are the determinator of who is a true Catholic? One who accepts all the official creeds of the Catholic Church, which are the Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, and the Creed of Pope Pius IV.
Including “filioque procedit”. Look at the stake in your eye!

 

[Swiss_Guard]

ByzCath:

I have to disagree with this. The Mass contained in the 1962 Missal is not 1500 years old. Part of it may be old but things were added. The Last Gospel has not been a part of the Tridentine Mass from the beginning, neither are the prayers at the foot of the altar, nor the St Michael prayer at the end.

What you are not taking into consideration is the organic development of the Mass. While it’s true the 1962 Missal differs from the 1958 Missal, which differs from the 1956 Missal, and so on, the Mass developed throught the centuries. A person in his old age differs in many things from his infancy, but he is still the same person. He developed throught the years of his life. The same holds true of the Traditional Latin Mass. Msgr. Klaus Gamber, in his book Reform of the Roman Liturgy: It’s Problems and Background states:

The Roman Rite, in important parts, goes back at least to the fourth century, more exactly to the time of Pope Damascus (366-384). By the time of Gelasius (492-496) the Canon of the Mass had attained the form it has kept until now, apart from some modifications made under Pope St. Gregory (590-604). Since the fifth century, the only thing on which the popes have unceasingly insisted is that the Roman Canon must be adopted; their argument being that it originated with the Apostle Peter. But concerning the other parts of the Order, and the choice of Propers for Masses, they respected the customs of local churches… and we now contemplate at our feet the ruins, not of the Tridentine Mass, but of the ancient Roman Rite which had developed and grown to maturity during that long period.
unavoce.org/gambhlts.htm

**As Msgr. Gamber points out, the Mass can be traced to St. Gregory the Great and even further back in history. Just because there were a few changes doesn’t mean it’s a different Mass. By using your logic, the Novus Ordo Mass today is not 35 years old, but only two years old, as we now stand at the Orate Fratres and bow our heads when receiving Holy Communion. **

I am sorry, but I did not state anything about this other than Pope Paul VI may be made a saint some day and if he is then one can say that the current Mass was codifed by a saint.

I do not understand why you bring this up.

I apologize for not making myself clear on this point. I agree with your statement that Paul VI could be canonized someday and therefore the Novus Ordo would be promulgated by a saint. I don’t think denigrating the Novus Ordo does any good, as it is a Mass promulgated by the successor of St. Peter. What I disagree with is your dismissal of the Tridentine Mass being codified by a saint. True, St. Pius V wasn’t a canonized saint while on earth, but the fact that the Tridentine Mass was codified by a man who became a saint must be taken into consideration. You do a grave injustice by dismissing the matter.

Now I am having trouble understanding what side you are on. Seems to be that you are on both, this could mean that you are a true Trad Catholic, not one of those rad-Trads, but a true Catholic who recoginizes the validity of the Mass but prefers the 1962 Missal.

I am a Roman Catholic who is trying to save his soul. I agree with Katolik that deciding who is a true Catholic and who isn’t a true Catholic is not for us to decide. God decides who is true and who isn’t. Holy Mother Church protects us from errors and leads us to salvation. We must always keep our eyes on the Holy See.

My parish only has the Tridentine Mass once a month, so I attend an Institute of Christ the King, Sovereing Priest (ICR) Latin Mass frequently. You might be interested to know ICR uses the 1956 Missal, not the 1962 Missal. They have permission from Rome to use this Missal. If you go to, or have been to, an ICR Mass, you wouldn’t be able to tell that they are not using the 1962 Missal. I didn’t know until the pastor of the closest ICR parish asked me what Missal I had. I showed him that it is a 1958 Missal. He told me the Easter Vigil will be a little different because ICR uses the 1956 Missal. It wasn’t until he told me this that I could tell the difference.

More in the next post.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

ByzCath:

Your emphasis does not grant a right to the faithful. I do not see any disobedience of bishops who do not allow this Mass. There are other considerations that must be taken pastorally. As I stated above, cost and the avaliblity of a priest to say this Mass under the canon law restrictions of no more than three Masses a day (under some circumstances) just to name two.

It is not my emphasis that grants a right to the faithful, it is John Paul II who grants this right. I just emphasised it to correct your error. The complete document can be accessed at the link below:
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/ECCLESIA.HTM

I notice you like to make an issue of an emphasis when you cannot support your position. Whether I emphasise the point or not is irrelevant to the argument. The fact is John Paul II has said that the Tridentine Mass is to be available to those who request it.

One does not have to be an FSSP or ICR priest to offer the Tridentine Mass. The three churches in the Archdiocese of Chicago that have the Tridentine Mass every Sunday are not FSSP or ICR. The Masses are said by diocesean priests or by priests of a religious order, such as the Augustinians and SVD’s. The idea that there can be no Tridentine Mass because it would cost too much to bring in an FSSP or ICR priest is absurd.

Many priests would love to say the Tridentine Mass. It is the bishops who are opposed to orthodoxy who prevent it. You stated that a bishop isn’t disobedient if he does not allow this Mass because he has to take in pastoral considerations. The first duty of a bishop is to save the souls in his diocese. I used to work for an organization that promotes the Tridentine Mass and I would hear the same sad stories from all across the country. People would call and say they petitioned their bishop for a Tridentine Mass once a week and he wouldn’t even grant them an audience, yet he allows all sorts of abuses to go on in his diocese. The bishop of Rochester, NY will not allow the Tridentine Mass but ALLOWS HILLARY CLINTON TO SPEAK AT THE PULPIT IN ONE OF HIS CHURCHES AFTER SUNDAY MASS!!! Please tell me how pastoral he is??? How is he helping the people in his diocese save their souls???

Yes this is part of the issue, but what I see and have experenced is that most bishops and religious orders are looking for men under 35 who have no debt and have a bachelors degree.

You severly limit your pool with these requirements and requiring a college education and no debt limits the experiences also as the pool of candidates for this will be upper class/very affluent types who really do not always have a grasp of the real world.

I am going to assume you are naive because I’ve read many of your posts and find them to be quite intelligent. I can’t believe you could be stupid enough to believe that liberals and homosexuals running seminaries in this country is only part of the issue. Read Goodbye, Good Men by Michael Rose if you haven’t already read it. Rose points out the real problem is still the radicals from the 1960s and the homosexuals controlling the seminaries and religious order vocation offices that are keeping good men out of the priesthood. Andrew Greeley even speaks about the “Lavender Mafia” that exists at the Chicago Archdiocesean seminary in Mundelein.

The problem is seminary rectors, vocation directors and formation directors are mostly still 60s radicals or homosexuals who want to make the priesthood in their own image, which, in essence would destroy the priesthood. While we know they cannot succeed in destroying the priesthood, they have succeeded in doing a tremendous amount of damage to it.

I understand you are considering a vocation to the priesthood. I will keep you in my prayers. I think you would make an excellent priest despite the disagreements I may have with you on some issues. However, I believe you have a genuine dislike for the Tridentine Mass. I hope I’m wrong and please tell me if I am wrong. If I’m not wrong, I hope you prayerfully consider the matter and come to see that while there are radical elements inside the Traditional Latin Mass movement, the Mass itself is beautiful, reverent and gives greater glory to God.

Pax tecum.

 

[BulldogCath]

Well said

What is wrong with respecting your traditions? It would be if tomorrow President Bush burnt the Statue Of Liberty and Declaration of Independence and decided to change to Communism or another form of government. We would be in an uproar. I know of no other faith that has changed.

Have the Moslems or Hindus had a Vatican II???

EddieArent:

Spit on the face of God? No way. Disobiediant to the Pope. Sure, that act was. But atleast he didn’t kiss a Koran and pray for peace with a bunch of heretics at Assisi. No longer peace through Christ, but peace through Buddha, Allah, et al false relgions. Is that spitting in the face of God?

“I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other Gods besides Me.”

 

[Swiss_Guard]

BulldogCath:

Well said

What is wrong with respecting your traditions? It would be if tomorrow President Bush burnt the Statue Of Liberty and Declaration of Independence and decided to change to Communism or another form of government. We would be in an uproar. I know of no other faith that has changed.

Have the Moslems or Hindus had a Vatican II???

Please, please, please, don’t give Bush any ideas!

 

[Sean_O_L]

Swiss Guard wrote:

The fact is John Paul II has said that the Tridentine Mass is to be available to those who request it.

There is much that you have written with which I agree.

1. Technically, there is no such Mass as a “Tridentine Mass.”
2. Pope John-Paul II gave a permission to some of the faithful - not all.
3. The pope gave the bishops of the world permission to allow the 1962 liturgy to “requesters”.
4. The bishops were NOT obligated to oblige.
5. A permission (even a “right”) to request is NOT a “right” to receive.

I wish it was not so - but, that is how it is.

 

[katolik]

So that is the justification faithful can’t have the TLM?
Point number 1 is partially true because it is the Traditional Latin Mass not the Tridentine.

#2. and define who these “some” people are.
#3. Yes and is this followed through?
#4. and therefore they must not be obiedient to the Pope. Who cares anyways? If the bishops can throw away this document why can’t normal pewCatholics? Thank you, I can throw away the rest of the document which says that SSPX is excommmunicated but the Pope will not declare this.

Now, if you want a Indult Mass in your area, invite the SSPX and then the bishop will allow you to have the Indult TLM.

 

[Fogny]

Sean O L:

Swiss Guard wrote:

There is much that you have written with which I agree.

1. Technically, there is no such Mass as a “Tridentine Mass.”
2. Pope John-Paul II gave a permission to some of the faithful - not all.
3. The pope gave the bishops of the world permission to allow the 1962 liturgy to “requesters”.
4. The bishops were NOT obligated to oblige.
5. A permission (even a “right”) to request is NOT a “right” to receive.

I wish it was not so - but, that is how it is.

Sean, I appeciate your last comment.

Why did the Pope give the bishops a back door.

This is why I am angry, so in essence he left the decision in the bishops hands. The truth is that the Latin Rite is marginalised by Rome, it is given in charity at least by John Paul. By now I know your opinion on this. I just make this point as this is one point I think Bp Fellay is correct on. I do not side with the sspx on all other contentions. If you are Pope John Paul feed your flock, I pray that he makes it a decision not of charity but of discipline.

Fogny

 

[bear06]

Fogny:

Sean, I appeciate your last comment.

Why did the Pope give the bishops a back door.

I’d guess because it would be silly to have them have to have a special mass for 10 people that want it in a parish and then have them have to find a priest to supply a bunch of masses for 10 people. If they had to do this, I can tell you right now that I know at least 10 people who would go to 10 different parishes and demand a TLM! I do think you’d be right to have a problem with a bishop who knows there is a real interest (meaning far more than 10) and turns it down. We have one indult here and our new bishop has said that he would not have a problem granting more if the interest is shown. Right now we don’t have a standing room only problem. In fact, we have people coming from other dioceses to our indult and it’s still not completely full. Should it catch on (it’s been 15 years and it hasn’t reached full capacity yet) then I’m sure he’d be happy to oblige if another parish would like to host.

 

[TNT]

bear06:

Fogny:

Sean, I appeciate your last comment.

15yrs…it hasn’t reached full capacity yet) then I’m sure he’d be happy to oblige if another parish would like to host.

Gotta love N. California and the Bay. If only they had a TLM for homosexuals.

I object to your location and experience being a universal condition. (You didn’t say that, but…I still object on general principles.)
If you you don’t arrive 15min early here, figure on standing room only in a TLM…in the vestibule… both 9:30 High and 11:30 low.
And, the line for confessions before each is even worse.
Dallas,TX

 

[gelsbern]

Sean O L:

Swiss Guard wrote:

There is much that you have written with which I agree.

1. Technically, there is no such Mass as a “Tridentine Mass.”
2. Pope John-Paul II gave a permission to some of the faithful - not all.
3. The pope gave the bishops of the world permission to allow the 1962 liturgy to “requesters”.
4. The bishops were NOT obligated to oblige.
5. A permission (even a “right”) to request is NOT a “right” to receive.

I wish it was not so - but, that is how it is.

1. The Tridentine Mass was the Mass codified by the Council of Trent. It does exist.
2. Permission to say the TLM was never ever revoked, even by Vatican II so there is no need to get permission to say it.
3. Since the permission to say the TLM was never revoked, requesting permission is moot.
4. The bishops were originally granted permission to use the NO if they chose, it was never decreed that they MUST use it and stop saying the TLM.
5. Permission, Right, it’s all moot since he TLM was never banned.

 

[TNT]

1. The Tridentine Mass was the Mass codified by the Council of Trent. It does exist.

1. Permission to say the TLM was never ever revoked, even by Vatican II so there is no need to get permission to say it.
2. Since the permission to say the TLM was never revoked, requesting permission is moot.
   …

I don’t mean to appear selfish, BUT, I’m glad the TLM is not universal because:

1. The Liberals would take many out of the church.
2. I fear for the condition of the TLM after the likes of Mahoney, Weakland, et al, got a hold of if under the cover of “collegiality”.
3. I like to experience inconvenience and difficulty when I must travel so fa to worship as my ancestors. (to say nothing of the cost to get there in a 4-X SUV.) It gets you ready for what is to come.