This is worrisome

[down_under]

Remember, too, that if someone dies during Triduum, they cant’ have a funeral Mass, so, the priest does a simple service.

what is a triduum

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I’ve met a lot of the lay folks who do these wakes, and they are not ‘wannabe clergy’, that’s just an unfair assessment of what they do.

I think one’s preference for these things is more in how you were brought up, and possibly your relationship with your parish priest.

Again…the thread is about whether or not it’s troubling to use laymen and laywomen in some of these roles for funeral rites.

Let’s be clear, this is not an ‘extraordinary role’ for them. There is no ‘ordinary minister’ of the wake or of the rite of committal. The books are quite clear about this.

So, there is nothing ‘wannabe’ about this. If trained appropriately and with the right formation, the ministry they perform is valid and licit.

They might be trained, but they, being these laity entering into ministry, not always, but too often, have their own agenda. And these people who have their own agendas frequently are wannabes.

It is EXTREMELY troubling to me! It is troubling to other people here.

So no. They should not be trained. Let’s face it, anybody can get hold of the various lay prayers fo a funeral and be the leader. I’ve seen it done long before this, out of perceived necessity (which later proved to be inaccurate).

But Death is what being a Catholic is all about, getting back to God. It seems very stingy, very parsimonious, to have Catholic funerals represented by laity, when it should be the shining moment of our clergy. All the laity are doing is reading prayers. Yes, they are effective prayers, same as any other lay person’s. No, they do not take the place of somebody who has received the sacrament of Holy Orders being on hand and doing the job. And yes, priests and deacons ARE different than the rest of us, by virtue of that sacrament!

Start with this stuff, and it ends up being like the Call To Action convention thread, where people feel they can ad lib to the point of Mass puppetry! No thank you!

And the rest of you, remind me to add a codicil to my after-death instructions: In addition to the big red cemetery marker, a real priest, celebrating a real Mass, and not some wannabe!

 

[Joannm]

They might be trained, but they, being these laity entering into ministry, not always, but too often, have their own agenda. And these people who have their own agendas frequently are wannabes.

It is EXTREMELY troubling to me! It is troubling to other people here.

So no. They should not be trained. Let’s face it, anybody can get hold of the various lay prayers fo a funeral and be the leader. I’ve seen it done long before this, out of perceived necessity (which later proved to be inaccurate).

But Death is what being a Catholic is all about, getting back to God. It seems very stingy, very parsimonious, to have Catholic funerals represented by laity, when it should be the shining moment of our clergy. All the laity are doing is reading prayers. Yes, they are effective prayers, same as any other lay person’s. No, they do not take the place of somebody who has received the sacrament of Holy Orders being on hand and doing the job. And yes, priests and deacons ARE different than the rest of us, by virtue of that sacrament!

Start with this stuff, and it ends up being like the Call To Action convention thread, where people feel they can ad lib to the point of Mass puppetry! No thank you!

And the rest of you, remind me to add a codicil to my after-death instructions: In addition to the big red cemetery marker, a real priest, celebrating a real Mass, and not some wannabe!

The discussion is not about a lay person celebrating the funeral but the wake service. The whole wake service takes about 10-15 minutes tops unless the talk after the reading is long. I have seen priests do a wake service in 5 minutes and run out the door without saying more than three words to the family.

 

[Spirithound]

what is a triduum

Triduum is the liturgical season from Holy Thursday to Easter Sunday.

 

[frommi]

They might be trained, but they, being these laity entering into ministry, not always, but too often, have their own agenda. And these people who have their own agendas frequently are wannabes.

It is EXTREMELY troubling to me! It is troubling to other people here.

So no. They should not be trained. Let’s face it, anybody can get hold of the various lay prayers fo a funeral and be the leader. I’ve seen it done long before this, out of perceived necessity (which later proved to be inaccurate).

But Death is what being a Catholic is all about, getting back to God. It seems very stingy, very parsimonious, to have Catholic funerals represented by laity, when it should be the shining moment of our clergy. All the laity are doing is reading prayers. Yes, they are effective prayers, same as any other lay person’s. No, they do not take the place of somebody who has received the sacrament of Holy Orders being on hand and doing the job. And yes, priests and deacons ARE different than the rest of us, by virtue of that sacrament!

Start with this stuff, and it ends up being like the Call To Action convention thread, where people feel they can ad lib to the point of Mass puppetry! No thank you!

And the rest of you, remind me to add a codicil to my after-death instructions: In addition to the big red cemetery marker, a real priest, celebrating a real Mass, and not some wannabe!

There are also seminarians entering the priesthood with an ‘agenda’…that’s about the individual, not the entire policy of training.

And no one is saying you can’t have a funeral mass celebrated by a priest…in fact, no one here is saying that anyone but a priest should celebrate a funeral mass. We’re talking about the wake and the rite of committal.

 

[quiet52]

from Pax_Vobiscum_57:
… real threat. These laity want to be “seen.” Most of them are women who demand the ordination of women.

It seems you’re personally taking on God’s role to judge hearts?

from Lepanto:

from: quiet52
As for expecting our pastor to be available for each vigil service (usually evenings) – so if he has a parish council meeting every 2nd Wednesday of the month, and finance council every 4th Thursday, and bible study 1st Wednesdays (etc.) – you want him to ignore these obligations so he can attend the vigil services at the mortuary or church?.

Yes. Assuming that all of these business meetings are even necessary in the first place, the priest should delegate someone responsible to go in his place to them. The point is to free up the priest to do priestly functions. Finance meetings, though they may be important, can easily be attended by a delegate.

from benedictgal:
That is true. The sacramental care of the parishioners outweighs the other responsibilities that a priest may have, including Parish and Finance Council meetings and, even Bible study classes. While these activities are important, they can certainly be handled by the laity. Sacramental and pastoral care issues are an entirely different matter. The priest was ordained to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and minister to the flock entrusted to him. This must come first.

It seems quite easy for some to declare that lay people cannot do “A” or “B” and that a priest MUST do “A” or “B.” True, pastors must give priority to sacramental needs – and in the cases of Baptism and Matrimony, he is allowed to tend to these needs by assigning deacons to administer them. He MUST attend a funeral Mass, or it wouldn’t be a Mass.

Pastors are called to do much to tend to the pastoral needs of their flocks – but Canon Law allows them to enlist the help of lay people to meet these needs when priests and deacons aren’t able to. Wakes and commitment services are not sacramental needs – if the pastor cannot attend to the pastoral needs of the deceased person’s family personally, he can tend to their needs by assigning deacons and properly-trained lay people.

A parish council exists to advise the parish’s pastor. The pastor always attends it. It is one of his functions which cannot be ignored.

The Code of Canon Law REQUIRES that a pastor have a finance committee. Again, he must attend it – the committee exists to advise him – which they cannot do if he’s not there.

from the Code of Canon Law:

Can. 519 The parish priest is the proper pastor of the parish entrusted to him. He exercises the pastoral care of the community entrusted to him under the authority of the diocesan Bishop, whose ministry of Christ he is called to share, so that for this community he may carry out the offices of teaching, sanctifying and ruling with the cooperation of other priests or deacons and with the assistance of lay members of Christ’s faithful, in accordance with the law.
…

Can. 529 ß1 So that he may fulfill his office of pastor diligently, the parish priest is to strive to know the faithful entrusted to his care. He is therefore to visit their families, sharing in their cares and anxieties and, in a special way, their sorrows, comforting them in the Lord. If in certain matters they are found wanting, he is prudently to correct them. He is to help the sick and especially the dying in great charity, solicitously restoring them with the sacraments and commending their souls to God. He is to be especially diligent in seeking out the poor, the suffering, the lonely, those who are exiled from their homeland, and those burdened with special difficulties. He is to strive also to ensure that spouses and parents are sustained in the fulfillment of their proper duties, and to foster the growth of Christian life in the family.

ß2 The parish priest is to recognize and promote the specific role which the lay members of Christ’s faithful have in the mission of the Church, fostering their associations which have religious purposes. He is to cooperate with his proper Bishop and with the presbyterium of the diocese. Moreover, he is to endeavor to ensure that the faithful are concerned for the community of the parish, that they feel themselves to be members both of the diocese and of the universal Church, and that they take part in and sustain works which promote this community.

…

Can. 532 In all juridical matters, the parish priest acts in the person of the parish, in accordance with the law. He is to ensure that the parish goods are administered in accordance with canon 1281‚1288.

…

Can. 536 ß1 If, after consulting the council of priests, the diocesan Bishop considers it opportune, a pastoral council is to be established in each parish. In this council, which is presided over by the parish priest, Christ’s faithful, together with those who by virtue of their office are engaged in pastoral care in the parish, give their help in fostering pastoral action.

ß2 The pastoral council has only a consultative vote, and it is regulated by the norms laid down by the diocesan Bishop.

…

Can. 537 In each parish there is to be a finance committee to help the parish priest in the administration of the goods of the parish, without prejudice to can. 532. It is ruled by the universal law and by the norms laid down by the diocesan Bishop, and it is comprised of members of the faithful selected according to these norms.

 

[puzzleannie]

I’ve met a lot of the lay folks who do these wakes, and they are not ‘wannabe clergy’, that’s just an unfair assessment of what they do.

Ilicit.

OP specifically said commital ceremony and funeral rites–which are reserved to ordained clergy–not wakes, which are not.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

OP specifically said commital ceremony and funeral rites–which are reserved to ordained clergy–not wakes, which are not.

Exactly! And the OP has every right to be concerned! As should we all…

 

[a_pilgrim]

part of the larger problem of “lay ministry training” which is undergoing revision or under moratorium in several dioceses because it has been hijacked by the agenda-setters…

If I may interject…

Perhaps much of the confusion and “blurring of the lines” with regard to lay individuals providing ecclesiastical services comes down to semantics. Perhaps a more clear-cut division between the roles of ordained and lay individuals should be enforced.

Here’s an example of what I mean… this Article (20.2) is taken directly from the Statutes of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Parma:

20.2. Laity who fulfill tasks of the ministry are not to be entitled “ministers”. This term is reserved to the ordained clergy.

I think it makes sense.

 

[Lepanto]

If I may interject…

Perhaps much of the confusion and “blurring of the lines” with regard to lay individuals providing ecclesiastical services comes down to semantics. Perhaps a more clear-cut division between the roles of ordained and lay individuals should be enforced.

Here’s an example of what I mean… this Article (20.2) is taken directly from the Statutes of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Parma:

I think it makes sense.

I agree. What are they called then in the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy ?

 

[frommi]

OP specifically said commital ceremony and funeral rites–which are reserved to ordained clergy–not wakes, which are not.

The committal ceremony doesn’t need to be presided over by an ordained minister (from what I can see in the rites).

 

[Joannm]

The committal ceremony doesn’t need to be presided over by an ordained minister (from what I can see in the rites).

You are right. In our area if the preist cannot go to the cemetary very often the funeral director would lead the graveside service.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

You are right. In our area if the preist cannot go to the cemetary very often the funeral director would lead the graveside service.

I don’t want my family comitted to the ground by the funeral director! As an extraordinary minister, that would be more extraordinary than I could stand!

 

[frommi]

I don’t want my family comitted to the ground by the funeral director! As an extraordinary minister, that would be more extraordinary than I could stand!

While I appreciate your preference…I’m not sure I understand it.

The prayers offered are the same regardless…

 

[Lepanto]

While I appreciate your preference…I’m not sure I understand it.

The prayers offered are the same regardless…

Other than “doing the magic” of confecting the Eucharist in their role as “sacramental ministers,” why do we even need priests?

 

[frommi]

Other than “doing the magic” of confecting the Eucharist in their role as “sacramental ministers,” why do we even need priests?

Oh come on…utlizing lay ministers for portions of the many liturgies surrounding a funeral is hardly reducing priests to being nothing more than ‘supply’ of the sacraments.

Most of the priests I encounter welcome the help provided to them by the lay men and women who work in their parish.

Priests represent the bishop, who is the successor to the apostles. Of course we need priests. But that does not mean there are not some areas of their ministry that can be shared in for everyone’s betterment.

 

[Pax_Vobiscum_57]

There are also seminarians entering the priesthood with an ‘agenda’…that’s about the individual, not the entire policy of training.

And no one is saying you can’t have a funeral mass celebrated by a priest…in fact, no one here is saying that anyone but a priest should celebrate a funeral mass. We’re talking about the wake and the rite of committal.

A funeral MASS can only be offered by priests or bishops.

People in this thread are making this sound like a new innovation, when it truly isn’t.

There is also some misunderstanding about the role of a deacon…they aren’t responsible for the care of souls ‘outside of mass’. That reduces the priest to a sacramental minister, which many of you are loathe to do.

I’ve been to funerals where the priest presider is of little consolation to the family…I’ve seen laypeople lead bad wakes.

Those examples are matters of personality, not of appropriateness for whomever to be performing the rite.

This is NOT worrisome

It most certainly IS worrisome. You sound like you want the laity to play a larger part in liturgical sacraments. It is YOU who does not understand the role of the deacon. The priest’s primary functions are offering Mass, hearing confessions and annointing the sick. As far as administration of a parish, a lot of priests are pastoral, not corporate, so they hire people who specialize in the business end of the parish.

The deacon certainly is expected to serve the parish outside of Mass. They aren’t junior priests. It would be an eye opening experience for you to meet with a priest who will tell you of the importance of the diaconate. This is only one one explanation, but it’s really accurate: deacons.net/Articles

 

[frommi]

A funeral MASS can only be offered by priests or bishops.

It most certainly IS worrisome. You sound like you want the laity to play a larger part in liturgical sacraments. It is YOU who does not understand the role of the deacon. The priest’s primary functions are offering Mass, hearing confessions and annointing the sick. As far as administration of a parish, a lot of priests are pastoral, not corporate, so they hire people who specialize in the business end of the parish.

The deacon certainly is expected to serve the parish outside of Mass. They aren’t junior priests. It would be an eye opening experience for you to meet with a priest who will tell you of the importance of the diaconate. This is only one one explanation, but it’s really accurate: deacons.net/Articles

Good grief! Now I’m anti-deacon?

Let’s back up the train here.

The point here is that there are funeral ‘rites’ (not MASS) that can be offered by priests, deacons, or a layperson. How that manifests itself is the province of the local ordinary.

Wakes and committal services are not ‘sacraments’. They are not reserved to a priest. That’s all I’m saying.

Your question was ‘is this worrisome?’. My answer is, no it is not. It’s within the bounds of the lay of the church and in many cases makes pastoral sense.

My grandfather was good friends with the pastoral associate, a nun, at his parish. When he died it was his express request that she preside and preach at the wake. That’s exactly what happened, and it was (for lack of a better term) ‘legal’.

So, I fail to see where this is ‘worrisome’. This is not the first step down some slippery slope where the trained laity start trying to confect the Eucharist and hearing confessions.

 

[Pax_Vobiscum_57]

No, I believe it was pilgrim who stated that there is obvious blurring ot the lines here." I never stated this as a question. I stated it as a statement. This is indeed the clericalization of the laity. Soon, nobody will be able to tell us from the Presbyterians.

lepanto, I was just shocked at your question. Do you really believe that the Consecration is a magic trick? What a terrible, sad, incorrect blaspheme against Jesus Christ.

 

[Phemie]

The ordinary minister to proclaim the first reading is not an ordained minister. It is a layperson, an instituted minister, an Instituted Lector. A priest proclaiming the first reading does so as an Extraordinary Minister.

I worry more about the breach of extraordinary minsters proclaiming the first reading, when instituted lectors are present. I think this is a more widespread problem. There is an unfortunate lack of stringent interpretation, enforcement and good example.

I think most parishes wouldn’t know an ‘instituted lector’ if one came up and bit them. In North America most instituted lectors are seminarians so the average parish never sees one.