This little mormon boy gets excited by...

[RebeccaJ]

I found out yesterday that a Mormon organization will have some small involvement in this massive Vatican’s library digitizing project. It’s the Center for the Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts, a part of the Neal A. Maxwell Institute, run out of Brigham Young University. They tell me more details are forthcoming.

I also found out that BYU and the Vatican Library have been collaborating together since 1999 to preserve records.

Maxwell Institute: Vatican Syriac Manuscripts / About the Project

The direct link to the Vatican library’s digitized stuff can be found from this BYU website.

Here’s a project report from the Syriac Computing Institute, for those who may view mormon sources with suspicion.

That’s cool too. But I have to wonder if the BYU side is going to do more overlaying of Mormon make believe over Catholic history.

 

[NeuroTypical]

Out of curiosity RebeccaJ, what might that look like to you?

 

[kimg901]

TexanKnight:
Are these the Salamander Letters?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Out of curiosity RebeccaJ, what might that look like to you?

Any Mormon apologia that uses historical Catholic writings.

 

[kimg901]

Why do people get hung up on genealogies? When the Bible clearly states not to. See Timothy 1, ver. 3 & 4.

 

[TexanKnight]

Are these the Salamander Letters?

Yep…And Neuro knows he cannot explain a god who cares more about js getting a free house than the lds church wasting thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars on fakes.

 

[kimg901]

Yep…And Neuro knows he cannot explain a god who cares more about js getting a free house than the lds church wasting thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars on fakes.

I would think if God was talking to these men then He would have said “The Hoffman letters are fake, do not be fooled”. I cant think of one time the Catholic Church has ever been fooled like that. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Tarquin]

Originally Posted by TexanKnight
Better to get into the LDS vault where the keep the stuff they are afraid to show people, Like the stuff they bought from Mark Hoffman when Mark Hoffman fooled the lds god.

False claim, Texan. Hoffman only fooled mortals.

But there is surely something in our human psyches that just relishes a good conspiracy story about hidden knowledge and guilty nefarousness surrounding the guys in power.

Mortals who were destitute of divine guidance.

As far as “hidden knowledge” goes:

"When [Salt Lake County Attorney] Ted Cannon pressed the church to let his investigators look at the originals of those that were still in Salt Lake City, a lawyer for the church said that would be impossible, because some of the documents were extremely confidential and** the church did not want to risk having them made public**.

"Cannon said that if the church declined to provide the documents voluntarily, he would subpoena them — and indeed, he subsequently did so. But, to head off a court fight over the subpoena, Cannon surrendered to a demand by the church's lawyers to keep the substance of the documents a secret.

" 'The content and meaning and interpretations to be placed upon what is iterated within the documents,' Cannon wrote to Wilford Kirton, the church's lawyer, 'is either immaterial or of secondary concern as far as this investigation is concerned.... every reasonable measure will be employed to secure not only the documents themselves, but the contents thereof, from scrutiny or discussion by anyone outside the authorized investigative team. **In no case will any member of the investigative team be permitted to discuss, describe or characterize the contents of the said documents, or any of them, to media or indeed any interested party whatsoever**,...'

"Cannon agreed to let church officials maintain a sign-in/sign-out log identifying everyone who examined the documents and agreed with the church's demands that members of his staff would have to turn over to the church all notes, photocopies, photographs and negatives made during examination of the documents. **Cannon ended his letter with an expression of thanks for the church's cooperation, a clause that brought snickers from many of those in the War Room ***....

"After being issued a subpoena, the church had released to Throckmorton and Flynn what it said were all of the documents it had acquired from Hofmann since 1980, including some that it had previously **kept secret***.

**"When the First Presidency's Vault yielded the letter presented to Gordon Hinckley by Hofmann in which Thomas Bullock accused Brigham Young of having tried to destroy the Blessing of Joseph Smith III, it caught those in the War Room by surprise.

" 'What else are they hiding?' Michael George demanded. 'None of the church historians I've talked to — Don Schmidt, Leonard Arrington, Dean Jessee — even knew this existed. They've never heard of it. What else do they have? Who knows what's in the First Presidency's Vault?' "** (*A Gathering of Saints*)No one can possibly think that the most sensitive documents relating to the Mormon Church are kept loose in a filing cabinet, or in a General Authority's desk, or in a secular bank vault. There is nothing odd, abnormal, or inherently evil or wrong with having a special safe, vault, or other secure place for holding sensitive documents. The problem is, in a mistaken attempt to defend the church from virtually everything that even looks to them like an "accusation", many members wind up denying the Church exercises common, basic practices that churches should, in certain cases, exercise. If Mormons didn't have such a strong psychological need to defend the Church absolutely, they could allow a few weak or irrelevant "accusations" go on by. When they can't do that, oh vicious circle, they look like they have something to hide.

 

[NeuroTypical]

Yep…And Neuro knows he cannot explain a god who cares more about js getting a free house than the lds church wasting thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars on fakes.

First, I notice you keep using the lower case “g” when referring to my God. When I read the forum rules here, I see: “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.”

When I look at Eric’s rules for this particular forum here, I see: “all discourse must be civil and charitable”.

Texan, when you use the lower case g, it’s insulting - I’d appreciate it if you would stop doing it. I don’t accuse you of worshiping just some god. I don’t use phrases like “The catholic god”. I respect your faith in and relationship with God. It would be nice if that respect went both ways. Even though you believe I’m wrong about lots of critically important things like God’s attributes, even nature. One would think that if you’re as right as you think you are, and I’m as wrong as you think I am, you could afford to hold off on rudeness and mockery.

Second, to address your issue. You started with:

Mark Hoffman fooled the lds god.

I said:

False claim, Texan. Hoffman only fooled mortals

You replied:

Not true…if you are LDS. Hoffman fooled THE LDS PROPHET…who talks to God. The lds first presidency paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to Hoffman to take the documents they believed were true and bury them. Odd that folks who claim God to them would not be warned by God that the documents they were spending so much of the Church’s money on were false.

So if I understand your reasoning, it looks like this:

1. God would never allow church leaders to be fooled by a forgery.
2. LDS Church leaders got fooled by the forger and murderer Mark Hoffman.
3. Therefore, the LDS church is not true.

I agree with #2 - yep, Hoffman fooled private collectors, professional historians, historical records analysts, and leaders in my church. But I strongly disagree with #1. If number one is not true, then your conclusion doesn’t follow.

Basically, I don’t believe, and my church doesn’t teach, that our prophets and leaders are infallible, or always right, or perfect, or foolproof. They don’t stop being members of the fallen race of man, just by accepting apostleship.

I’ve mentioned this before on this forum here, and here, and here.

Specifically speaking to the Hoffman incident, I basically agree with this article’s summation:

On the question of duped church leaders — well, yes. Church leaders were duped. That’s embarrassing. Is it anything more? It does mean that if you think that Thomas S. Monson has a bat-phone directly to God, then you probably need to rethink your testimony. (And I’ll grant that quite a few CTR-8s probably have that understanding. And probably some adult members, too, which is unfortunate.) For those of us who don’t subscribe to the bat-phone model of prophetic guidance, well, the incident doesn’t mean a whole lot.

Finally, just in case anyone was wondering, the church didn’t buy the Salamander letter. The church turned down Hoffman’s offer to sell, and a guy named Steven F. Christensen bought it for $40,000 in January 1984, and then donated it to the church in April 1985. I heard this from one of Christensen’s relatives who was a member in my ward a few years back, but you can easily confirm it for yourself here or here or even here.

It looks like the church bought other forgeries, because we were fooled. But we didn’t buy the Salamander letter. Minor point, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Finally, I guess I should comment on the thread in general. When I started this thread about the Vatican Library’s efforts to preserve history, I was genuinely excited about it, being a lover of ancient records and history. They tell me the Vatican library was created to make these records available to the world - and the effort to preserve stuff digitally and publish them on websites for free, move this goal forward by leaps and bounds. I have nothing but praise for this effort, and I’m happy to know mormons through BYU’s CPART have had and will have some small involvement.

I didn’t expect this thread to take such a negative turn. I guess I was hoping for more posts like the first nine. I can take my excitement to other groups that are happy to just celebrate the Vatican Library’s move forward with me.

Last word is yours.

 

[NeuroTypical]

First, I notice you keep using the lower case “g” when referring to my God. When I read the forum rules here, I see: “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.”

When I look at Eric’s rules for this particular forum here, I see: “all discourse must be civil and charitable”.

Texan, when you use the lower case g, it’s insulting - I’d appreciate it if you would stop doing it. I don’t accuse you of worshiping just some god. I don’t use phrases like “The catholic god”. I respect your faith in and relationship with God. It would be nice if that respect went both ways. Even though you believe I’m wrong about lots of critically important things like God’s attributes, even nature. One would think that if you’re as right as you think you are, and I’m as wrong as you think I am, you could afford to hold off on rudeness and mockery.

Second, to address your issue. You started with:

I said:

You replied:
So if I understand your reasoning, it looks like this:

1. God would never allow church leaders to be fooled by a forgery.
2. LDS Church leaders got fooled by the forger and murderer Mark Hoffman.
3. Therefore, the LDS church is not true.

I agree with #2 - yep, Hoffman fooled private collectors, professional historians, historical records analysts, and leaders in my church. But I strongly disagree with #1. If number one is not true, then your conclusion doesn’t follow.

Basically, I don’t believe, and my church doesn’t teach, that our prophets and leaders are infallible, or always right, or perfect, or foolproof. They don’t stop being members of the fallen race of man, just by accepting apostleship.

I’ve mentioned this before on this forum here, and here, and here.

Specifically speaking to the Hoffman incident, I basically agree with this article’s summation:

And just in case anyone was wondering, the church didn’t buy the Salamander letter. The church turned down Hoffman’s offer to sell, and a guy named Steven F. Christensen bought it for $40,000 in January 1984, and then donated it to the church in April 1985. I heard this from one of Christensen’s relatives who was a member in my ward a few years back, but you can easily confirm it for yourself here or here or even here.

It looks like the church bought other forgeries, because we were fooled. But we didn’t buy the Salamander letter. Minor point, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Finally, I guess I should comment on the thread in general. When I started this thread about the Vatican Library’s efforts to preserve history, I was genuinely excited about it, being a lover of ancient records and history. They tell me the Vatican library was created to make these records available to the world - and the effort to preserve stuff digitally and publish them on websites for free, move this goal forward by leaps and bounds. I have nothing but praise for this effort, and I’m happy to know mormons through BYU’s CPART have had and will have some small involvement.

I didn’t expect this thread to take such a negative turn. I guess I was hoping for more posts like the first nine. I can take my excitement to other groups that are happy to just celebrate the Vatican Library’s move forward with me.

Last word is yours.

 

[RebeccaJ]

First, I notice you keep using the lower case “g” when referring to my God. When I read the forum rules here, I see: “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.”

When I look at Eric’s rules for this particular forum here, I see: “all discourse must be civil and charitable”.

Texan, when you use the lower case g, it’s insulting - I’d appreciate it if you would stop doing it. I don’t accuse you of worshiping just some god. I don’t use phrases like “The catholic god”. I respect your faith in and relationship with God. It would be nice if that respect went both ways. Even though you believe I’m wrong about lots of critically important things like God’s attributes, even nature. One would think that if you’re as right as you think you are, and I’m as wrong as you think I am, you could afford to hold off on rudeness and mockery.

Second, to address your issue. You started with:

I said:

You replied:
So if I understand your reasoning, it looks like this:

1. God would never allow church leaders to be fooled by a forgery.
2. LDS Church leaders got fooled by the forger and murderer Mark Hoffman.
3. Therefore, the LDS church is not true.

I agree with #2 - yep, Hoffman fooled private collectors, professional historians, historical records analysts, and leaders in my church. But I strongly disagree with #1. If number one is not true, then your conclusion doesn’t follow.

Basically, I don’t believe, and my church doesn’t teach, that our prophets and leaders are infallible, or always right, or perfect, or foolproof. They don’t stop being members of the fallen race of man, just by accepting apostleship.

I’ve mentioned this before on this forum here, and here, and here.

Specifically speaking to the Hoffman incident, I basically agree with this article’s summation:

Finally, just in case anyone was wondering, the church didn’t buy the Salamander letter. The church turned down Hoffman’s offer to sell, and a guy named Steven F. Christensen bought it for $40,000 in January 1984, and then donated it to the church in April 1985. I heard this from one of Christensen’s relatives who was a member in my ward a few years back, but you can easily confirm it for yourself here or here or even here.

It looks like the church bought other forgeries, because we were fooled. But we didn’t buy the Salamander letter. Minor point, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Finally, I guess I should comment on the thread in general. When I started this thread about the Vatican Library’s efforts to preserve history, I was genuinely excited about it, being a lover of ancient records and history. They tell me the Vatican library was created to make these records available to the world - and the effort to preserve stuff digitally and publish them on websites for free, move this goal forward by leaps and bounds. I have nothing but praise for this effort, and I’m happy to know mormons through BYU’s CPART have had and will have some small involvement.

I didn’t expect this thread to take such a negative turn. I guess I was hoping for more posts like the first nine. I can take my excitement to other groups that are happy to just celebrate the Vatican Library’s move forward with me.

Last word is yours.

I think the issue is, LDS leaders are supposed to have extra insight into a person’s heart. A gift from God that is supposed to allow the leaders of your Church to have spiritual insight into EVERYTHING and EVERYONE.

That, and don’t you think your leaders prayed about Hoffman’s forgeries and felt they had a positive affirmation from the Holy Ghost, by virtue of their positions, to move ahead with the purchase. Aren’t they supposed to be prophets, SEERS, and revelators? Do you think God had a purpose for buying forgeries from Hoffman?

I agree with you, that they are just men, with no special calling or divine gifts from heaven.

 

[TexanKnight]

First, I notice you keep using the lower case “g” when referring to my God. When I read the forum rules here, I see: “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.”

Sorry. The true God is a capital. The lds “god”, since once a sinful man, is the TRUE God". Therefore, I will not use a capital. I will be charitable, but not insulting to the TRUE God.

Texan, when you use the lower case g, it’s insulting - I’d appreciate it if you would stop doing it.

I understand you dodging the points by playing victim…it is a typical tactic. But I will not insult the True God by comparing him to a god who was once a sinful man and is, under your faith, one of many gods…

Second, to address your issue. You started with:

I said:

You replied:
So if I understand your reasoning, it looks like this:

1. God would never allow church leaders to be fooled by a forgery.
2. LDS Church leaders got fooled by the forger and murderer Mark Hoffman.
3. Therefore, the LDS church is not true.

I agree with #2 - yep, Hoffman fooled private collectors, professional historians, historical records analysts, and leaders in my church. But I strongly disagree with #1. If number one is not true, then your conclusion doesn’t follow.

Wrong…the historians, collectors, etc., did not have a hotline with the lds god…you lose that argument

Basically, I don’t believe, and my church doesn’t teach, that our prophets and leaders are infallible, or always right, or perfect, or foolproof. They don’t stop being members of the fallen race of man, just by accepting apostleship.

Ah…so you believe your god cares more about js getting a house for free thaqn his church wasting hundreds of thousand of dollars?

Last word is yours.

I do not blame you…hard to justify a god who will make sure js gets a free house paid for by poor members, but turn a blind eye to wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars on fake documents. Hard to follow such a capricious god.

 

[TypesAndShadows]

NeuroTypical has only posted polite, charitable, enthusiastic sharing of Catholic good things in this thread.

Why on Earth have some posters decided to pile on with sidetracks about how NT’s religion is false?

Step back, and consider what you think when you see these behaviours towards a Catholic in a non-Catholic forum. I know it makes me think that the non-Catholics are over-defensive and are afraid of encountering ideas outside their bubble. It makes me suspect the non-Catholics are being dishonest.

I thought it was an interesting post, Neurotypical. Thank you.

 

[Aramis]

First, I notice you keep using the lower case “g” when referring to my God. When I read the forum rules here, I see: “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.”

Axiomatically, in English, “God” refers to an uncreated being who is eternal and created the universe; “god” refers to any divine being, especially part of a pantheon or pandeism system. Dualists (like the Zoroastrians) linguistically have had both versions used.

When you LDS types misuse “God” for your created god, who was not the creator of the whole of the universe, and was once a mortal like us, many of us find it offensive, both theologically and linguistically.

Your god-view, like that of the pantheists and pandeists, does not have the Father as a sole and uncreated being (unless, of course, your church’s website lies boldly about LDS theology), for mortals are created beings, and the LDS god was once like us, and as he is now, we shall become.

 

[PaulDupre1]

I think the issue is, LDS leaders are supposed to have extra insight into a person’s heart. A gift from God that is supposed to allow the leaders of your Church to have spiritual insight into EVERYTHING and EVERYONE.

Exactly. LDS call it the “gift of discernment”. For instance, your LDS bishop is believed to be able to know if you are lying to him in your temple recommend interview due to the gift of discernment that he has.

Mormonism teaches that the FP and Q12 possess all of the keys and gifts of the priesthood at all levels of church leadership. So why is it that a local bishop has the gift of discernment in small matters, but the “prophets, seers and revelators” at the highest level of LDS leadership seem to have no such gift? I know the answer, so why don’t the LDS?

Prepare to witness astounding mental gymnastics.

Paul

 

[Tarquin]

First, I notice you keep using the lower case “g” when referring to my God. …“Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.”
…“all discourse must be civil and charitable”.

…when you use the lower case g, it’s insulting - I’d appreciate it if you would stop doing it. I don’t accuse you of worshiping just some god. I don’t use phrases like “The catholic god”. I respect your faith in and relationship with God. It would be nice if that respect went both ways. Even though you believe I’m wrong about lots of critically important things like God’s attributes, even nature. One would think that if you’re as right as you think you are, and I’m as wrong as you think I am, you could afford to hold off on rudeness and mockery.

I didn’t expect this thread to take such a negative turn.

I apologize for any undue negativity on my part. (If I was positively “rude”, I’d like it pointed out specifically. Sometimes I am brief and blunt, and although at times I have riposted to blunt remarks and insults, I am not intentionally rude.)

I read and post in forums with some very, very negative people, who insist on using lower case “g” and sometimes “magic man in the sky” in reference to God. Their name for God isn’t the issue. If I got hung up on that, or on their spelling, capitalization, etc., I would miss opportunities, particularly with atheists, to give them more substantial comments.

I know not how others may do it, but I tend to use captial “G” for the First Cause, Creator, Transcendent Being. That would include, usually, the Christian, Mormon, Jewish, Muslim God in particular. I use lower case for most any other type of god; that would include any “god” subsequent to the First.

1 Corinthians 8 reads “There are many gods and many lords—To us there is one God (the Father) and one Lord, who is Christ.” More than one Mormon missionary told me that refers to the lineage of gods - men may become gods (but naturally not the First God). I notice the Mormon Bible has the words “gods” and “lords” begin in lower case. Maybe they don’t teach that any longer. I’m sorry if you object to my use of capitals.

But to insist I capitalize “god” when it refers to something far less than the First, the Transcendent, Unconditioned, Timeless, and Absolutely Incomparable One God, frankly, is objectionable to me.

 

[kimg901]

Nuero. I can see why you find it offensive just in the way we Catholics find it offensive that your leaders have said there are many gods and that Jesus was a failure. But if you really believe in Christ like a lot of Mormons do then you should also know that Christ has never failed and that your worshipping a false Jesus. Which brings me to my next question. So do you really want to keep denying Christ and God of their glory and praise so that you will not be cast aside by the Mormon church and possibly lose friends and family in the process? Is God and Jesus not worth that sacrifice? Think real hard about it. Your family and friends are not forever. But Christ is. I will continue to keep you in my prayers as well as many others. I know at times it seems like we are just bashing you and your church but we are not. We care for others souls and pray that when we all die we may see each other again and be as brothers and sisters in the Kingdom that God has prepared.