"This Meal"

[adstrinity]

I went back to the church 2 miles away from me rather than 98, where it’s a 10 minute round trip rather than a 4 hour one.

Though it’s nice to be back to my home before the other Mass even starts, there’s some things that happened at Mass today that I want to rant about.

First off, I went to this Mass rather than the one in Tulsa because I have negative income right now. This is less of a financial strain. However, all the regular grievences from somebody who has grown accustomed to a TLM were there: lay readers, holding hands during the Our Father (I didn’t), EMHC (as a matter of fact, the one woman came down the aisle to distribute to an elderly person and then went around the back of the church to come up the side aisle to offer to do the same for another elderly person), but, there were a few more things that I want to know if I should be more traumatized about.

Father DID give a fairly “good” homily…I realize that is subjective, but, he was talking about “Who is This Christ, and if He isn’t the One, then we should look elsewhere,” and “putting action/works in faith”, but, he addressed the congregation before the Eucharist as “Sisters and Brothers.” Ugh. It’s bad enough to have the all inclusive language but, to start it off with the feminine was so…pandering to those who don’t count; I’m fine with this not being the case. It’s about Jesus Christ, not The Wickerman. Also, he said, “Hapy are those who are called to this meal,” instead of “Happy are those who are called to His Supper.” Is this acceptable, this phrase? If it is, I wont worry about it.

He DID seem to really emphasize the this IS the Body of Christ when he held up the portion of the Host (which was probably 6"; is there a law governing how big the display Host can be?).

Because of the TLM, I am more appreciative of what the Mass is and what it means and, this church still looks so nice. There’s 5 statues up on the altar in the back, one of them is The Sacred Heart, more statues elsewhere, and there’s still a Communion Rail (though, it’s not used); I now understand why all the parts of the Mass are they way they are, even if it’s in a shortened and ‘imperfect’ form in the OF Mass (does it matter we don’t ask St. Michael et al to pray for us?) However, there is one final thing: how come the priests in the OF do not keep their forefinger and thumb together after the concecration? (Although, again, good: Father did brush off all the crumbs from the paten to…somewhere else…then, bad: appeared to check his beeper or something).

 

[Timothysis]

EMHC (as a matter of fact, the one woman came down the aisle to distribute to an elderly person and then went around the back of the church to come up the side aisle to offer to do the same for another elderly person

And you find this unacceptable? Would you prefer that this poor, elderly person simply not have the opportunity to receive the Body of Christ?

 

[Timothysis]

It’s about Jesus Christ,

According to your post, one would be hard pressed to realize that.

 

[Lainey63]

I don’t want to sound rude but exactly at what point did you pray the mass? I have learned by reading the Catechism that at the time of the conscecration we are there at the foot of the cross with Mary. I used to think all those things that you have written and I learned that I was wrong to sit there and judge everything that is going on. I learned that I am to be as fully united to Christ as I possibly can and the more I focus on Him the less I realize what is going on around me. When you are obsessing about what others are doing your heart is not where it should be. You can’t control what others do but you can control what you do & pray.

 

[adstrinity]

So, “This Meal,” instead of “His Supper”…acceptible?

I didn’t comment on what anybody else was doing. I was paying attention to the altar. I was questioning what was going on there.

The EMHC – I don’t know when going down the aisle is apropriate to distribute the Eucharist. I know at the TLM all involved make every effort to get up and kneel down at the altar rail.

 

[Timothysis]

The EMHC – I don’t know when going down the aisle is apropriate to distribute the Eucharist.

I think it is appropriate when there is an elderly person who would have a hard time getting to the front on their own. My God, man, do you even know what the word “charity” means? Did Christ cure only those who came up to Him face to face? Your attitude seems to imply that if a person can’t get to the front of the church on their own then they shouldn’t receive at all. Well, it isn’t your call to make, so get over it.

 

[puzzleannie]

I, EMHC (as a matter of fact, the one woman came down the aisle to distribute to an elderly person and then went around the back of the church to come up the side aisle to offer to do the same for another elderly person), but, there were a few more things that I want to know if I should be more traumatized ).

this is disgusting, why didn’t they make the old people crawl up the aisle on their knees to receive?

I distinctly remember in my childhood and teen years, before the “changes” in the Mass, the priest and server coming to the front pews on the “Blessed Mother side” where some pews had been removed to accommodate wheel chairs to distribute to the elderly and handicapped, before the rest of the congregation came to the communion rails, or people who could not kneel would stand at the end of rail, and the priest would communicate them standing.

 

[EasterJoy]

So, “This Meal,” instead of “His Supper”…acceptible?

I didn’t comment on what anybody else was doing. I was paying attention to the altar. I was questioning what was going on there.

It just sounds a bit as if you went in thinking poison, that’s all. I won’t say I haven’t done it myself. That attitude and a prayerful attitude are pretty much mutually exclusive. It is just impossible to look for mistakes and faults in others within a prayerful attitude. Yes, an obvious faux pas is a major distraction, but unless you go in with the attitude that you’re going to look past things like lay lectors that are actually allowed, you are sunk before you start. Real problems are real, of course they are, but it also helps a lot to avoid the attitude that looks for problems.

As for “this meal”…that question was rhetorical, wasn’t it? You aren’t pretending to be asking that as if you don’t know the answer, are you?

On the issue of finding fault with a priest who chooses to say “Sisters and Brothers” during his own homily, I hope you realize how nit-picking that sounds. In fact, by putting it “It’s bad enough to have the all inclusive language but, to start it off with the feminine was so…pandering to those who don’t count” you sound, not as if you are concerned that Christ is not made to count over a laity with a bad case of political correctness (the most charitable spin I can put on the thought), but as if you were ticked off at the idea that females might count once in awhile instead of males. I hope the latter was the furthest thing from your humble, prayerful, all-loving, Christ-like mind.

Whether or not you’ve ever been afflicted with it yourself, that is exactly the kind of attitude of male entitlement that let the correctness horse out of the barn in the first place, and the one that is giving fuel to women who think that not having Holy Orders open to them automatically makes them second-class citizens within the Church. If you need to rant, it is well to be very clear that this is not what you mean, that you are fully on board with St. Paul and “neither male nor female”. Make it clear that it is only hearing political correctness again assail the language that sets your teeth on edge. These little distinctions are important.

(If you’re not on board with St. Paul, and think the Church does have second-class citizens, then bite your tongue until you are. He was right; you’re not.)

The EMHC – I don’t know when going down the aisle is apropriate to distribute the Eucharist. I know at the TLM all involved make every effort to get up and kneel down at the altar rail.

I can understand your worry about the Eucharist being taken around the church, rather than having those who find it difficult to come forward sit in the same area. That does increase the chances of having an accident. OTOH, while we do have a single area for those with mobility problems at our parish, the ushers will occasionally alert a EMHC about a person in another area who also has mobility problems. It isn’t optimal, but if the ushers keep everyone else in that section in their seats until the EMHC has finished fulfilling the special need and gotten to the regular station, it doesn’t present a big danger. Mostly, it takes educating the EMsHC so that they don’t go on “walkabouts” without the ushers keeping the aisle clear, to prevent an accidental collision with somebody who doesn’t expect to see them back there.

 

[adstrinity]

I do confess an issue with the over use of EMHC, but, I was asking, when is it appropriate to bring it to the aisle, before or after? …Nobody lined up (though, they may have gotten up) until she was at her station, so, I guess this is a plus. Kept order, I couldn’t see if anything happened to the Host, so, I assume it didn’t because it would be cause for alarm if it did.

No, I do not know if it is appropriate to say “this meal” instead of “His Supper”, I really want to know if it is allowed.

Also, I don’t know if everybody did this or just the guy behind me, but, instead of “Createor of Heaven and Earth,” he said, “Maker of Heaven and Earth.” …?

I am not being argumentative; I came and posted this question, I have since been accused of things and answered with sarcasm (and not very subtle, either), but, not answered. Is this an acceptable change.

Look, I prefer the EF, but, if I MUST go to the OF, then, I want to make sure there is as much respect and love for God by the Priest as possible; I don’t want to be nit-picky and if these things are alright, then, I’ll get over it.

IF this was the same priest as last week (and I’m not sure that it is), he didn’t homily from the nave, which, as many have quoted the documents to prove, is fine.

As far as females counting instead of males, no. Males and females count together; this is denoted in the English language by saying “Brothers” or “Mankind”. To add to what is implied is unnecessary.

Now, for the third mother loving time, IS SAYING, “THIS MEAL,” INSTEAD OF, “HIS SUPPER,” A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE!!!

 

[EasterJoy]

No, I do not know if it is appropriate to say “this meal” instead of “His Supper”, I really want to know if it is allowed.

Also, I don’t know if everybody did this or just the guy behind me, but, instead of “Createor of Heaven and Earth,” he said, “Maker of Heaven and Earth.” …?

I am not being argumentative; I came and posted this question, I have since been accused of things and answered with sarcasm (and not very subtle, either), but, not answered. Is this an acceptable change…

Now, for the third mother loving time, IS SAYING, “THIS MEAL,” INSTEAD OF, “HIS SUPPER,” A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE!!!

Accept my apologies. I really did think your question was rhetorical.

No, whether EF or OF, it is not allowed for a priest to change the words of the Mass as it has been promulgated. A bishop may ask for variations that will apply within his diocese, but the changes have to have the consent of the Vatican. The bishop is the chief liturgist for his diocese, though. Priests are to respect the rubrics promulgated by the Vatican for the diocese in which they are in, as requested by the bishop of that diocese: that is, the bishop who gives each priest faculties to exercise the priestly ministry in that diocese.

I’m not saying that it is illicit to arch one’s eyebrows where it is not in the rubrics to do it, there are admittedly people who go a little nuts about this, but it is the rule that no word or gesture may be added to or subtracted from the Mass by those who don’t have the authority to do it. I would not quarrel with anyone who found “this meal” to be a substantial alteration of “His Supper”, for what I think are obvious reasons. (Synopsis: yes, the Lord had a Passover meal with his disciples before He died, but nobody ever calls it “the Last Meal”.)

As for Maker/Creator, keep in mind that the Apostles’ Creed uses “creator”, while the Nicene Creed uses “maker”. The guy behind you may just say the rosary a little too often to be reciting the Nicene Creed without looking at the book. I hope that is a nice thought, at least.

Oh, wait! You are the one who says “creator”…you are the rosary guy! Well, that is a mark in your favor. If it makes you feel any better, an older priest I knew who actually proclaimed the Gospel word-for-word from memory when it was his turn to preach(!) used to have to look at the book for the Nicene Creed, for just that reason. That’s how I know, so I’m guessing that there are many people who think that both Creeds are the same in that line. At any rate, I think it safe to say that the difference between “maker” and “creator” are not substantial, excepting that it is nice to have everyone use the same word at any given Mass.

 

[Timothysis]

Look, I prefer the EF, but, if I MUST go to the OF, then, I want to make sure there is as much respect and love for God by the Priest as possible; I don’t want to be nit-picky and if these things are alright, then, I’ll get over it.

You might want to make sure that you have as much “respect and love” for you fellow church goer, too. You are definitely being nit-picky and should “get over it.”

 

[corsair]

Adstrinity,

You’ll notice that there are a lot of contributors here, as on other forums, that call themselves traditional but who are real supporters of the NO Mass.

I’ll be the first to admit that the NO is a valid Mass, just not my cup of tea. My advise is to bit the bullet and offer it up for the poor souls in purgatory, until you are financially better off. Thats what I have to do.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .then, bad: appeared to check his beeper or something).

He was most likely checking the volume on his microphone since the controls for the microphones priests often use are in a little black box under their robes.

 

[adstrinity]

No, whether EF or OF, it is not allowed for a priest to change the words of the Mass as it has been promulgated. A bishop…

Thank you. This is what I needed to know.

As for Maker/Creator, keep in mind that the Apostles’ Creed uses “creator”, while the Nicene Creed uses “maker”.

Lightbulb AH-HA! See, if I said my Rosary more, I’d know that.

At any rate, I think it safe to say that the difference between “maker” and “creator” are not substantial, excepting that it is nice to have everyone use the same word at any given Mass.

I must disagree. I can make things, I cannot create anything, but, seeing as how this isn’t really an abuse in abundance Mass, I guess there’s no underlying subtext to why this was said, especially IF it was only said by the guy behind me.

He was most likely checking the volume on his microphone since the controls for the microphones priests often use are in a little black box under their robes.

Ah-ha! That could have been it. Thank you.

corsair, I think I’ll reply to you via pm.

 

[Cluny]

I now understand why all the parts of the Mass are they way they are, even if it’s in a shortened and ‘imperfect’ form in the OF Mass (does it matter we don’t ask St. Michael et al to pray for us?)

The Leonine Prayers (which include the Prayer to St. Michael) are not and never were part of the Tridentine Mass. They are not and never were included in the altar Missal. They are called “Prayers after Low Mass”, meaning they are not said after a Missa Canata or Solemnis–and then, not even after all Low Masses.

They were said, first just in and around Rome, and later were extended to the Latin Church for the protection of the temporal sovereignty of the Holy See. After the settling of the “Roman Question” by the Lateran Treaty, Pius XI changed their intention to “the conversion of Russia.”

And the OF is NOT “imperfect”, as it is impossible for the Church to promulgate “imperfect” or “invalid” rites. ALL of her authorized rites perfectly accomplish what they are intended to do.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

The Mass you attended sounds perfectly fine. Nothing you mention should be a problem. There are several versions of the Eucharistic prayers, one of which may say ‘this meal’, I am not sure. We have a priest who is a theologian and he often uses alternate versions of the prayers depending on what memorial we are celebrating.

I am very glad you found a parish that you can attend during this time that you are out of work. I will be praying for you to find an job soon. There is a wonderful novena to St Josemaria Escriva for seeking employment. I highly recommend it!

 

[EasterJoy]

I must disagree. I can make things, I cannot create anything, but, seeing as how this isn’t really an abuse in abundance Mass, I guess there’s no underlying subtext to why this was said, especially IF it was only said by the guy behind me.

Although you wouldn’t know it by my overly-flippant bit about supper and meal, I mean that the fact that the Church uses one in the Nicene Creed and the other in the Apostle’s Creed that the Church finds the two words to be substantially similar, since both Creeds are still in active daily use. It isn’t likely to be some kind of a political statement. Even with “this meal” and “His supper”, I think the “this” and “His” are where the main departure comes in. All the same, the Mass is promugated in each language with great care, and it is meant to be said exactly as it is written, even when the effort is not as euphonious as somebody might like. Improvisation is frowned on, to say the least.

The Mass you attended sounds perfectly fine. Nothing you mention should be a problem. There are several versions of the Eucharistic prayers, one of which may say ‘this meal’, I am not sure. We have a priest who is a theologian and he often uses alternate versions of the prayers depending on what memorial we are celebrating…

Except that the substitution of “this meal” for “His supper” was made during the Communion Rite, which doesn’t have a lot of different approved forms, rather than the Eucharistic prayer, which does. Even then, it is not allowed to take one bit out of one Eucharistic prayer and one bit out of another (not that I’m saying you said it was). Each one is written to be used as written, in its entirely.

Again, the Mass in all its approved forms and even with all its varied options is very carefully written, with painstaking care. It is not nitpicking to ask that it be celebrated exactly as written. That is what we are directed to do by Rome. I will admit, however, that there are places and priests who think it is nitpicking to expect that, so it is wise to pick your battles carefully. Besides, it isn’t a good habit to look for mistakes in those not under your authority. It ruins one’s peace of mind–IMHO, I admit–and should be avoided when possible.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Except that the substitution of “this meal” for “His supper” was made during the Communion Rite, which doesn’t have a lot of different approved forms, rather than the Eucharistic prayer, which does. Even then, it is not allowed to take one bit out of one Eucharistic prayer and one bit out of another (not that I’m saying you said it was). Each one is written to be used as written, in its entirely.

Again, the Mass in all its approved forms and even with all its varied options is very carefully written, with painstaking care. It is not nitpicking to ask that it be celebrated exactly as written. That is what we are directed to do by Rome. I will admit, however, that there are places and priests who think it is nitpicking to expect that, so it is wise to pick your battles carefully. Besides, it isn’t a good habit to look for mistakes in those not under your authority. It ruins one’s peace of mind–IMHO, I admit–and should be avoided when possible.

I agree that the Mass should be said as written and whatever choices made should be used entirely as written. I did mis-read the original post and thought we were discussing the “his disciples” vs “his friends” type of issue. That said, I also feel strongly that we should cultivate a sense of humility and as you say not look for mistakes. Since the OP may end up attending Mass at this parish for a bit longer, it would be in his best interests to put those things that really are small differences behind him and focus on the miracle.

 

[EasterJoy]

I agree that the Mass should be said as written and whatever choices made should be used entirely as written. I did mis-read the original post and thought we were discussing the “his disciples” vs “his friends” type of issue. That said, I also feel strongly that we should cultivate a sense of humility and as you say not look for mistakes. Since the OP may end up attending Mass at this parish for a bit longer, it would be in his best interests to put those things that really are small differences behind him and focus on the miracle.

It is a little like the problem of having someone make repetitive noises during Adoration. They shouldn’t do it, it is extremely distracting, you would not be at all wrong or petty if you went to Adoration at one parish rather than another in order to avoid it, but sometimes there is more spiritual profit in looking past these things while they are happening than taking it upon ourselves to direct those not under our authority or to waste time and peace of mind in throwing mental darts in their direction. It’s not the same, but the principle still applies, I think. Sometimes it is better to accept that every human has clay feet, and look past it.

 

[adstrinity]

The Mass you attended sounds perfectly fine. Nothing you mention should be a problem. There are several versions of the Eucharistic prayers, one of which may say ‘this meal’, I am not sure. We have a priest who is a theologian and he often uses alternate versions of the prayers depending on what memorial we are celebrating.

I am very glad you found a parish that you can attend during this time that you are out of work. I will be praying for you to find an job soon. There is a wonderful novena to St Josemaria Escriva for seeking employment. I highly recommend it!

And for that, that I can attend Mass, I am VERY thankful. I really have it WONDERFUL. I think this church is less than a mile away (or, maybe a mile), so, if I was ambitious enough, I COULD possibly walk it. I am VERY blessed to have this church in my little SE OK town, which, was fortunately settled by Italians. I am so very blessed, I know.

Incidentally, I am further blessed because I am female.