This must be heresy!

[Vaclav]

I have to agree with patg.

First let me say that I do believe in the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves.

Yet, I do not believe the word “heresy” should be thrown around with reckless abandon either. The Catholic Church should be allowed to hold theological debates such as this without “heresy” being thrown in when it is not warranted.

 

[utunumsint]

I went to St. Paul’s. I think there are a few orthodox Catholic teachers there, but not many.

In my introduction to ecclesiology, the teacher kept on refering to Papal “Bull”.

My Old Testament teacher seemed to take particular joy in contradicting church teachings and traditional interpretations.

My Ethics teach was a radical feminist and pro choice. She said she thought there were too many “Christs” in the church. I’m not sure what she meant by this, but I didn’t stick around to find out. I left after three weeks.

But there are a few good people who work there. It is mostly dominated by liberals and radical feminists though.

Stick with Dominican.

Ut.

 

[quasimodo]

when this “Jesus taught them to share” nonsense is discussed around semites actually familiar with and part of the culture in question, they sometimes respond with something like “we don’t need people to teach us to share, it is part of who we are.”

 

[fix]

**1335 **The miracles of the multiplication of the loaves, when the Lord says the blessing, breaks and distributes the loaves through his disciples to feed the multitude, prefigure the superabundance of this unique bread of his Eucharist. The sign of water turned into wine at Cana already announces the Hour of Jesus’ glorification. It makes manifest the fulfillment of the wedding feast in the Father’s kingdom, where the faithful will drink the new wine that has become the Blood of Christ.
CCC

 

[DallasCatholic]

I suppose the miracle of the Wedding of Cana can also be explained away similarly - the guests had actually brought their own supplies of wine and waited until the end to bring it out or something?

No, no, no Lily! EVERYONE knows that the wedding at Cana was actually a smuggling operation. The wine was placed in water jars with fake inserts…Jesus just smashed the fake inserts so that the water and wine comingled and voila! Instant miracle. I can’t believe you didn’t know that!

Since not everyone can read tone on a post let me say that the above was written with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This is only my opinion, but I cannot help but feel that the majority of those who embrace the ‘interpretation’ of the story of the multiplication of the loaves and fishes as being ‘a story of sharing’ are really elevating humanity above divinity and subtly encouraging the teaching that the most important thing for our salvation isn’t that Jesus saved us, but instead that ‘we’ cooperate with Him. The most important factor of human life then becomes, instead of living a life of knowing, loving and serving God to be happy with him in this world and the next, and to love our neighbor as ourselves, simply a ‘me-and-Jesus’ OSAS mindset that, if we just listen to the lovey-dovey Kumbayah ‘words’ of Jesus (never mind actually following up and acting on them), then we are pretty much bound to be saved because we are really wonderful beings who (on our own since God is Deist at best or some sort of pantheistic eternal Being who can be equally ‘experienced’ by any, or even no faith whatsoever) will ‘do the right thing’ provided we are not browbeaten by fanatic hidebound mossy relics who insist on absolutes or rules.

It’s especially dangerous because, like most lies, there is a core of truth which is twisted into the lie. Yes, we must cooperate with Jesus to be saved so in the end it is not He who ‘damns’ us but we who ‘damn’ ourselves. But this particular style of downplaying the miraculous and the supernatural in favor of the ‘reality’ of human goodness, etc. rather thoroughly bypasses the need for Jesus’s sacrifice at all, doesn’t it? Because the whole point for these exegetes is that humanity (that pinnacle of creation) needs only a ‘good role model’ in order to perform absolutely wonderfully. These exegetes also are noteworthy for their downplaying of ‘sin’ in any form whatsoever, from original sin on down. Jesus, you see, never ‘condemned’ people. Jesus, you see, never specifically condemned ‘sin’ (well, maybe inhospitality but of course most people except those stuffy hidebound fanatics are far too tolerant and open minded nowadays to even think of committing a sin, so why even mention the possibility?)

It’s as though they think, "Well, Jesus was divine so a miracle from Him is just an ordinary thing. But, hey, for just plain human folk to get together and share. . .well, that is a real miracle. Forget Jesus in the equation–all He did was inspire people. The people are the ones doing the real miracle by sharing. "

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

A Catholic neighbor of mine (who was my sponsor for RCIA 2006) attended some conference at the most liberal ‘Catholic’ University in Canada - St. Paul University. The lecturer was comentating on the Multiplication of the Loaves in the Gospels, and said that one of the possible interpretations of that miracle, was that everyone had loaves on them and shared out of their love for each other. He told me that a Catholic priest said “sounds like heresy to me!” to which he was offended. He thinks this is a reasonable interpretation, but I believe (and I think the Church does too if I’m not mistaken) that it’s complete nonsense. I am a new Catholic, so some good info on this to refute it would be helpful! Pax Christi.

Heresy is the obstinate doubt or denial of a dogma (I think ) - how does that qualify as heretical ? Rash, possibly; but heretical ? Nonsense =/= heresy - nor does either imply the other.​

OTOH, a lot of posts defending transubstantiation (good) seem to fall over into the condemned error of ultra-realism (bad). So being objectively wrong is no evidence of subjective ill-intent.

AFAIK, it is (in the main) a perfectly allowable interptetation - though it will upset some, understandably enough; that does not make it heretical. IMO that interpretation does not tell the whole story, not by a long way, but does reflect a very important facet of it.

ISTM that “liberal” is almost a dead word - it’s too much to expect a word to carry as many shades of meaning as “liberal” is expected to. When a word is used to mean as many overlapping or contradictory things as that word is, it’s time to put it out to grass, for a while at least. When it has got over the worst effects of all the work it has been called upon to do, it can be set to work again. But unless it gets some rest, it’s going to be dead as a door-nail, & even more useless. ##

 

[Ani_Ibi]

The Catholic Church should be allowed to hold theological debates such as this without “heresy” being thrown in when it is not warranted.

I agree with this in principle.

However, in the case of St Pauls where error is being taught in a sneering, disrespectful manner to students who devote their energy, time, and money to learning theology, are you saying that calling a spade a spade is a questionable practice?

 

[servus]

A Catholic neighbor of mine (who was my sponsor for RCIA 2006) attended some conference at the most liberal ‘Catholic’ University in Canada - St. Paul University. The lecturer was comentating on the Multiplication of the Loaves in the Gospels, and said that one of the possible interpretations of that miracle, was that everyone had loaves on them and shared out of their love for each other. He told me that a Catholic priest said “sounds like heresy to me!” to which he was offended. He thinks this is a reasonable interpretation, but I believe (and I think the Church does too if I’m not mistaken) that it’s complete nonsense. I am a new Catholic, so some good info on this to refute it would be helpful! Pax Christi.

This is a view that is common in most Universities. Scholar’s these days are afraid to believe in miracles. During the enlightenment, in the wake of controversies such as that of Galileo, philosophers and others began to try and understand the world basing defining truth as what can be readily proven through the senses. In the late 18th and 19th centuries Theologians began to adopt “rational religion” ideas in Germany. They interpreted the Bible in the context of the Enlightenment’s “rationalism”. Thus they denied everything which “supernatural”. We also get textual criticism of the Bible from this period, and Theistic Evolution.

WIth that said, the critics of Biblical miracles have some good points. For example a miracle performed for the sake of establishing one’s authority would only be necessary if their authority would not readily be obeyed by individuals. In other words, miralces force us to beleive something that we would not otherwise beleive. For example, in Revelation 13 the false prophet does miracles to establish its authority. Truth should be objective, but miracles cause men to make descisions which are not self-evidently true. I hope this makes sense.

With that said, I believe in miralces, especially those of Jesus.Christ did not do ridiculous miracles, but He healed people. He raised the dead, as thier creator. The fact that miralces don’t seem to happen any more does not bother me, because God has revealed so much to us simply through the life, death and ressurrection of Christ we have plenty to occupy ourselves with. Plus, the ability of the gospel of Christ to transform lives, heal broken hearts, re-establish trust between people, heal broken homes; all things which go against fallen human nature, is a great miracle in itself.

Last summer I met a boat captain in Maui who despised God and religion. He even made fun of those tho go to Church. A few months later in November I heard that he had given his heart to Christ. His relationship with his family was healed, and now his life is an example to the transforming power of the holy Spirit to his family and friends.

 

[utunumsint]

Gottle,

In Canada the term “liberal” has a specific connotation with the Liberal party of Canada. Successive Liberal governments brought us Canadians same sex marriage, abortion rights, freedom from censorship, and many other not so wonderful practices all in the name of human rights. Most of the Canadian liberal leaders were Catholics, influenced by the kind of garbage preached at St. Pauls. Ottawa is where our Parliament meets.

Not all liberals are pro choice, and for same sex marriage, but the majority are.

Ut

 

[Spirithound]

Also in favour of the miracle, we can read about similar miracles performed by saints, when they prayed and their bread multiplied enough to feed their convent/monastery.

 

[Vaclav]

I agree with this in principle.

However, in the case of St Pauls where error is being taught in a sneering, disrespectful manner to students who devote their energy, time, and money to learning theology, are you saying that calling a spade a spade is a questionable practice?

I’m not really familiar with St Pauls and the “disrespectful” manner in which “error” is being taught.

But no, if true heresy is being taught then by all means it should be identified. A Catholic theologian should not be teaching, for example, the Protestant view of Mary. They should not teach dualism, Arianism, or Jansenism. Certainly not!

The Scholastic thinkers also disputed the works of one another and I think that should be encouraged, so that the one who teaches this non-miraculous view can be countered by one who teaches the miraculous view.

 

[Cam-masta]

Wow this thread has really picked up! Good stuff. I will read all responses. My neighbor and I just had another debate on this issue and he doesn’t see how this relates to the manna from heaven, and how the Jews would know who the Messiah was by this specific miracle.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Gottle,

In Canada the term “liberal” has a specific connotation with the Liberal party of Canada. Successive Liberal governments brought us Canadians same sex marriage, abortion rights, freedom from censorship, and many other not so wonderful practices all in the name of human rights. Most of the Canadian liberal leaders were Catholics, influenced by the kind of garbage preached at St. Pauls. Ottawa is where our Parliament meets.

Not all liberals are pro choice, and for same sex marriage, but the majority are.

Ut

Thanks - but: what has that to do with theology or the Bible ?​

JP2 was a “liberal” in certain respects - but that doesn’t even begin to justify crediting him with those views; & exactly the same holds for Biblical scholars. It is intolerable, slanderous, deceitful & downright evil to attribute such views to Biblical scholars from the word go, in order to discredit their opinions - or don’t trivia such as honesty, equity, reason & truth matter these days ?

I hope very much you’re mistaken -

One assumes Catholics in the US are capable of distinguishing between stars in the sky & stars in enrtertainment - so maybe they are capable of distinguishing between different kinds of liberalism. Or not ? ##

 

[Cam-masta]

…Is there a pronouncement from the Magisterium on this topic that is binding?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…Is there a pronouncement from the Magisterium on this topic that is binding?

On​

• Biblical interpretation
• that particular incident
• or what…?

 

[Cam-masta]

Thanks - but: what has that to do with theology or the Bible ?​

JP2 was a “liberal” in certain respects - but that doesn’t even begin to justify crediting him with those views; & exactly the same holds for Biblical scholars. It is intolerable, slanderous, deceitful & downright evil to attribute such views to Biblical scholars from the word go, in order to discredit their opinions - or don’t trivia such as honesty, equity, reason & truth matter these days ?

I hope very much you’re mistaken -

“or don’t trivia such as honesty, equity, reason & truth matter these days ?” According to some professors at St. Paul U who promote the denial of miracles and give the ‘higher-criticism’ approach the last word instead of the Church…no. Their opinion is all that matters.

 

[Cam-masta]

On​

• Biblical interpretation
• that particular incident
• or what…?

On the multiplication of the loaves and fishes…the proper interpretation.

 

[HailMary]

A Catholic neighbor of mine (who was my sponsor for RCIA 2006) attended some conference at the most liberal ‘Catholic’ University in Canada - St. Paul University. The lecturer was comentating on the Multiplication of the Loaves in the Gospels, and said that one of the possible interpretations of that miracle, was that everyone had loaves on them and shared out of their love for each other. He told me that a Catholic priest said “sounds like heresy to me!” to which he was offended. He thinks this is a reasonable interpretation, but I believe (and I think the Church does too if I’m not mistaken) that it’s complete nonsense. I am a new Catholic, so some good info on this to refute it would be helpful! Pax Christi.

Take it from a Chaldean Middle Eastern person, this is not how our culture operates. We do not hide food, but share when possible. Just like people don’t realize that then the Father of the Prodigal son “ran” at his son, likewise this. In case you don’t know what I’m talking about, there is a point when you become an old man in the middle east where you just don’t run anymore (yes, this is uncommon here since we have senior citizens doing marathons nowadays), but not so back then. Without this cultural context, you can lose something very valuable in the meaning of how much the Father loves us all.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

The Scholastic thinkers also disputed the works of one another and I think that should be encouraged, so that the one who teaches this non-miraculous view can be countered by one who teaches the miraculous view.

Yes, I think different points of view among Church thinkers on non-dogmatic topics is stimulating and has many benefits. But sneering rebellion which is paid for by the Church is a betrayal.

Archbishop Gervais has resigned quite some time ago. If folks are serious about rectifying the situation at St Pauls and other sites, then check this out:

CANADIANS: Lobby for a Conservative Archbishop of Ottawa

CAF has a new action page. I don’t know how it works yet. But they might post this link there or the whole story. Or you could ask the mods to post this link as a sticky on this forum.