This must be heresy!

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**1335 **The miracles of the multiplication of the loaves, when the Lord says the blessing, breaks and distributes the loaves through his disciples to feed the multitude, prefigure the superabundance of this unique bread of his Eucharist. The sign of water turned into wine at Cana already announces the Hour of Jesus’ glorification. It makes manifest the fulfillment of the wedding feast in the Father’s kingdom, where the faithful will drink the new wine that has become the Blood of Christ.
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So, what does the Catechism say?

“The Lord says the blessing, breaks and distributes the loaves through his disciples” prefiguring the Eucharistic celebration in which the Apostles, Bishops and priests would distribute the body and blood of the Lord.

If it were simply all about "sharing’, the Lord’s Supper would be a pot-luck dinner, and we’d all bring a casserole. Good times. Noodle salad.

Sorry, I don’t believe this tripe for a moment.
 
If it were simply all about "sharing’, the Lord’s Supper would be a pot-luck dinner, and we’d all bring a casserole. Good times. Noodle salad.
And we wouldn’t have the scene the next day in John 6 where some of the disciples walk away, obviously thinking that the Sermon on the Mount was only about ‘sharing’ food.

The Social Gospel is important but without the Real Presence it is merely various inventive neo-expressions of Marx – not Jesus.

And oh I have met so many folks who have gone to St Pauls who cannot make the connection between the SoM and the RP in John 6. Not to say the do not love and cherish both. No not to diss them with that at all. Just that the connection has been discouraged or suppressed by whatever au courant notion is being flogged at that school. And it is the connection which is important for Catholics.
 
Sorry, I don’t believe this tripe for a moment.
You are totally free to believe anything you want about this incident just as I am free to believe that the incident is likely a literary creation of the author meant to convey exactly the concept mentioned in the catechism. There are many forms of truth and ways to teach truth. There is no requirement of belief either way!

And, as a general comment to several others, throwing around serious words like “heresy” when refering to the subject of scripture interpretation is way, way out of line. The church has specifically defined the interpretation of so few passages (like maybe 6) that this is never something to be said in an accusatory manner.
 
This is a view that is common in most Universities. Scholar’s these days are afraid to believe in miracles. During the enlightenment, in the wake of controversies such as that of Galileo, philosophers and others began to try and understand the world basing defining truth as what can be readily proven through the senses. In the late 18th and 19th centuries Theologians began to adopt “rational religion” ideas in Germany. They interpreted the Bible in the context of the Enlightenment’s “rationalism”. Thus they denied everything which “supernatural”.

Some did - some did not. To dismiss all post-Enlightenment theology because of some ideas in it, is as fair-minded as dismissing all priests as paedophiles, just because some are​

We also get textual criticism of the Bible from this period, and Theistic Evolution.

And textual criticism is objectionable because…?​

WIth that said, the critics of Biblical miracles have some good points. For example a miracle performed for the sake of establishing one’s authority would only be necessary if their authority would not readily be obeyed by individuals. In other words, miralces force us to beleive something that we would not otherwise beleive. For example, in Revelation 13 the false prophet does miracles to establish its authority. Truth should be objective, but miracles cause men to make descisions which are not self-evidently true. I hope this makes sense. … …

Bringing in the category of the miraculous doesn’t solve anything - so Biblical scholars don’t use it.​

God could have inspired Abraham to write the entire Bible - why not ? God can work miracles, & that would have been nothing to Him. So if one tries to settle issues of authorship of books by invoking the miraculous, that possibility cannot be ruled out. Those people commonly regarded as the writers of Scripture may have done nothing more than bring the original copies of Matthew or Genesis up to date, by adding a few details to the text of Mark or Proverbs as known to (say) Jacob & Joseph. It must have comforted Joseph in his prison that he had the Fourth Gospel to read.

That is where reliance on the miraculous as a means of settling scholarly issues gets you. A Christian who really believes in miracles will find no pleasure in the unbelief of those who insist on an early date for a Gospel - a God of miracles is well able to inspire a gospel to be written long after the events mentioned in it are forgotten; so it is unbelief, not faith, that insists Matthew must have been written in (say) 40, & not in 80.

It’s as reasonable to accuse juries of “denying the miraculous” as it is to accuse Biblical scholars - real Christians realise that if someone looks guilty of murder, it’s because he is. Trivia such as his water-tight alibi only show that the devil miraculously transported him to the scene of the crime so that he was in the right place to commit it. Only atheists will be impressed by alibis or evidence.

IOW - the miraculous is useless to scholars, real as it may be, because it allows for anything to happen: scholarship is possible only if the world is intelligible, regular, & more or less predictable. If water can turn into wine or a saint can cross a river on his cloak or multiply food, & if these possibilities are treated as other than very rare (& in that sense “abnormal”), the world ceases to be a world which is intelligible. Biblical scholarship is a historically-minded discipline - historical data (manuscripts, attributions of authorship, traditions, attributions of miracles, etc.,) are impossible to study if the world is not intelligible; if anything can happen.

If Catholic students believe in miracles - why do they bother revising ? God can give them infused knowledge; if they had faith, they would trust in Him to do so. In fact, even the most ultra-supernaturalist Catholics are unlikely to act like that.
 
“or don’t trivia such as honesty, equity, reason & truth matter these days ?” According to some professors at St. Paul U who promote the denial of miracles and give the ‘higher-criticism’ approach the last word instead of the Church…no. Their opinion is all that matters.

It’s impossible for me to tell whether what they are doing wrong is, to embrace positions that really are wrong (& if so, in what respect) - or, whether their fault amounts to nothing more than availing themselves of the full range of approaches which they as Catholics are entirely at liberty to draw upon. (Those who claim to respect Roman documents are curiously slow to quote from the [1993 document The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church (http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/PBC_Interp.htm)), which describes these approaches in considerable detail - including Higher Criticism; its description of HC begins thus:​

  • The historical-critical method is the indispensable method for the scientific study of the meaning of ancient texts. Holy Scripture, inasmuch as it is the “word of God in human language,” has been composed by human authors in all its various parts and in all the sources that lie behind them. Because of this, its proper understanding not only admits the use of this method but actually requires it
    “Indispensable” ? Maybe Catholics who attack Catholics for employing HC methods should ask themselves whether they are the ones who are mistaken.
Catholics are not obliged to like the conclusions that other Catholics arrive at - but they are obliged to avoid accusing others of heresy. As for denying miracles: do they - or is that what they are thought, mistakenly, to be doing by those of their critics who can’t understand their reasoning ?

There have been too many baseless accusations of error, heresy, disobedience, & so forth for it to be easy to believe that those who make such accusations are credible accusers. IOW - there is no reason, so far, to believe the accusation of heresy. If heresy has been committed, it should be very easy to prove.
 
JP2 was a “liberal” in certain respects - but that doesn’t even begin to justify crediting him with those views; & exactly the same holds for Biblical scholars. It is intolerable, slanderous, deceitful & downright evil to attribute such views to Biblical scholars from the word go, in order to discredit their opinions - or don’t trivia such as honesty, equity, reason & truth matter these days ?
My comments are based on my experiences at St. Paul’s. I do not accuse my teachers of being heretics because they use reason or HC. I accused two professors of openly teaching heresies such as the denial of Papal infalibility and abortion rights.

I brought this up to warn the OP not to trust everything that comes out of St. Paul’s University. Please note, I also said that not everyone at St. Paul’s University teaches heresy.

As for HC, I find it troubling, but I agree with you that the Church does not see this as heretical.

In charity, I hope you will refrain from accusing me of being “intolerable, slanderous, deceitful & downright evil”. You do not know my motives. Please do not accuse me of rejecting “honesty, equity, reason & truth.” These are heavy accusations which you cannot back up since you do not know me.

Peace…
 
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patg:
There are many forms of truth and ways to teach truth. There is no requirement of belief either way!
Perhaps but irrelevant. If St Pauls wants to teach heresy there is nothing to stop it. But if it does, then its designation as a Catholic university should be removed so as no further misrepresentation occurs.
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patg:
And, as a general comment to several others, throwing around serious words like “heresy” when refering to the subject of scripture interpretation is way, way out of line.
Heresy is a technical term. St Pauls is a Catholic university. The priest mentioned in the OP made a legitimate point.

If we lose the ability to name things then we lose the ability to know them. Who do you think would benefit by us not knowing heresy when it -]rears its ugly head/-] came slouching toward Jerusalem?
 
Heresy is a technical term. St Pauls is a Catholic university. The priest mentioned in the OP made a legitimate point.
No, the priest either lied or was seriously misinformed about scripture interpretation and what constitutes heresy.
If we lose the ability to name things then we lose the ability to know them. Who do you think would benefit by us not knowing heresy when it -]rears its ugly head/-] came slouching toward Jerusalem?
When naming things, one should make sure they know what the name means and whether it applies - there seems to be a significant lack of understanding of both in this case.
 
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utunumsint:
My comments are based on my experiences at St. Paul’s. I do not accuse my teachers of being heretics because they use reason or HC. I accused two professors of openly teaching heresies such as the denial of Papal infalibility and abortion rights.
Emphasis mine.
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patg:
No, the priest either lied or was seriously misinformed about scripture interpretation and what constitutes heresy.
utunumsint is talking about one thing.

You are talking about another thing. You are talking about what you want to talk about. You are trying to derail the thread and use it as a soapbox for Sola Scriptura.

Your post looks like just another strawman attempt to undermine the Catholic Church to me.

The OP, a new Catholic, is referring to the failure of St Pauls to put the Social Gospel in the context of the Real Presence.

Your post is off topic.
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patg:
When naming things, one should make sure they know what the name means and whether it applies
And you have not demonstrated that you know what the name means. Only that you, like many other posters on this forum, just don’t like the name.
 
utunumsint is talking about one thing.

You are talking about another thing. You are talking about what you want to talk about. You are trying to derail the thread and use it as a soapbox for Sola Scriptura.

Your post looks like just another strawman attempt to undermine the Catholic Church to me.

The OP, a new Catholic, is referring to the failure of St Pauls to put the Social Gospel in the context of the Real Presence.

Your post is off topic.
No, the OP specifically asked about the interpretation of the loaves and fish story. The OP does not mention the Real Presence or the context of the Real Presence. I am the one sticking to the original topic.
 
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