This question is for Protestants only. What do you have against Mary?

[Erick_Ybarra]

If the answer to all questions of faith and morals were settled by simply relying on the pope why did Jesus teach so much on spiritual discernment.

Please answer kindly. Love your neighbor as youself.

 

[irishcanesfan]

I am a Protestant. I am not against Mary. I believe she was a virgin when she conceived Jesus. So I am not sure of this anger you speak of.
Now…as a Protestant there are aspects of Marian theology we may not agree on. Her perpetual virginity being one. Her assumption into heaven etc. But I am not going to argue with a Catholic about it.

Blessings

 

[PRmerger]

I am a Protestant. I am not against Mary. I believe she was a virgin when she conceived Jesus. So I am not sure of this anger you speak of.
Now…as a Protestant there are aspects of Marian theology we may not agree on. Her perpetual virginity being one. Her assumption into heaven etc. But I am not going to argue with a Catholic about it.

Blessings

Watch this video and see if you can identify any kind of anger against Catholic veneration of Mary.

youtube.com/watch?v=PrPrbdonJ68&feature=related

Note that this video is even more laughable because that which he identifies as Mary is actually St. Therese, the Little Flower.

 

[PRmerger]

If the answer to all questions of faith and morals were settled by simply relying on the pope why did Jesus teach so much on spiritual discernment

I am not following you.

Is there some Catholic teaching you believe proclaims that Catholics are banned from spiritual discernment?

 

[irishcanesfan]

I can’t watch right now. I don’t say there isn’t ANY anger at all just that I myself have never seen it nor had a Protestant friend speak ugly of Mary. Not all Protestants are that way just like not all Catholics are the same. Gee wilikers:thumbsup:

 

[irishcanesfan]

I do agree that Notre Dame is pretty awesome!! LOL:extrahappy:

 

[batman1973]

This thread turned into a set up. It was supposed to be a question just for Protestants and Catholics hijacked it decided to have a theological argument with the Protestants who responded it. Very disingenuous the Catholics on this board(IMHO)

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

If the answer to all questions of faith and morals were settled by simply relying on the pope why did Jesus teach so much on spiritual discernment.

Please answer kindly. Love your neighbor as youself.

Don’t credit the Papacy and the Magisterium too much now. In truth, there are still many things about the faith that has not been formally defined, and thus can still be believed or disbelieved by Catholics. For example, the Assumption of St. Joseph is still out there

What the Magisterium has made, on the other hand, are boundaries on which we can go no further on our speculations. And that is a good thing, for then we can, as it were, play:

Catholic doctrine and discipline may be walls; but they are the walls of a playground. Christianity is the only frame which has preserved the pleasure of Paganism. We might fancy some children playing on the flat grassy top of some tall island in the sea. So long as there was a wall round the cliff’s edge they could fling themselves into every frantic game and make the place the noisiest of nurseries. But the walls were knocked down, leaving the naked peril of the precipice. They did not fall over; but when their friends returned to them they were all huddled in terror in the centre of the island; and their song had ceased.

Orthodoxy, Chapter 9

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

This thread turned into a set up. It was supposed to be a question just for Protestants and Catholics hijacked it decided to have a theological argument with the Protestants who responded it. Very disingenuous the Catholics on this board(IMHO)

Which is why I told the OP to post this in the Non-Catholics forum at least, since this is the Apologetics forum.

But then you’re right, I’m gonna ask a moderator to close this thread. Or at the very least move it.

 

[PRmerger]

This thread turned into a set up. It was supposed to be a question just for Protestants and Catholics hijacked it decided to have a theological argument with the Protestants who responded it. Very disingenuous the Catholics on this board(IMHO)

elisakreisinger.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/eyeroll.gif

Incidentally, while a member may ask that only a specific group of individuals respond, this request will always be superceded by the general CAFs rule which is: all members may respond to ANY thread.

 

[George_Everson]

This is a very serious question, and not meant to be an attack in any way. Catholics can engage in this forum if they wish, but they won’t be able to help me with my question, because I want to hear from Protestants.

First of all, the asking of this question comes from my constant fellowship with my Protestant brothers and sisters. I am a Catholic, but I consider both Catholics and Protestants to be Christian. My question, though, stems from the somewhat hostile feelings Protestants have regarding the Virgin Mary. Many of my Protestant brothers and sisters will come to me for spiritual advice and bible reflection, and often I will post bible verses or pictures of Jesus on facebook. I have many pictures of Jesus in my arsenal of inspirational pictures, but I also have a few pictures of Mary that I enjoy looking at and will sometimes post. In response to posts/pictures of Jesus, they respond with things like “Hallelujah!” and “Amen!” but when a picture of Mary is shown, it is met with only scorns and cries of idolatry.

I’ll be honest, this greatly saddens and confuses me. When I see a picture of Mary, I say to myself “Behold, the beloved Mother of Christ Himself. How happy am I to see a picture of my dear Savior’s mother.” When seeing these pictures of Mary, my Protestant friends seemed to be filled with feelings that are almost exactly opposite. They often respond with words such as “Idolatry!” and “You worship Mary!” and other hostile remarks about Catholics or the Virgin herself. I’m sorry, but I don’t see the reasoning behind this. Keep in mind, my Protestant brethren who are kindly taking the time to read this, that I know not all Protestants are like this. But when my friends and followers who are Protestant see pictures of Mary, instead of filling them with love for Our Lord, it seemingly fills them with hatred of Catholics and resentment.

It saddens me; I don’t understand why this hatred comes out like this. I know what idolatry is, and I try to explain to them that I’m not in any way in my own mind raising Mary above God by looking joyfully at a few pictures of her. I explain to them that when I see a picture of Mary, I say to myself what I already stated as above. I do not say to myself “Behold, the Virgin Mary who is Divine and Greater than Our Lord Jesus Christ and ought to be worshipped as God!”

Yet still, even after I explain this, some of my Protestant brethren (not all of them, however) will claim that loving Mary is not loving Jesus, and that honoring her is against scripture. How saddening and confusing this is! Jesus Himself said that we are to “Love one another”, but somehow, according to them, this excludes the Virgin Mary, who was God’s most faithful and blessed servant. If someone loves Mary, do they not also love Jesus? If someone loves Jesus, should they not also love Mary? Anyone who loves Jesus obeys His commandments (John 14:21). Let’s apply this to Blessed Mary. If somebody loves Mary, they will obey her commandments also, correct? What are Mary’s commandments? “Do whatever he tells you” (John 2:5). So whoever loves Mary must also love Jesus.

So my question is, if there are Protestants here who feel this way that Mary ought to not be shown any love or honor whatsoever, and that seeing pictures of her only ignites resentment of Catholics, why do you feel this way? Keep in mind, my Protestant brethren, that I know full well that this does not apply to all of you. My best friend, and perhaps the most righteous and holy person I have ever known, was my grandfather, who was Lutheran. Unfortunately we never got to talk about Mary before his death, but I’m sure that the mention of Mary the beloved servant did not induce any hatred or resentment in him. This is not in any way an attack on all Protestants, only a question out of confusion for the ones who are seemingly, at least in my experiences, hostile towards the Virgin Mary. Oh, and by the way, I fully understand the desire by Protestants, or even instead of desire, the fear, to not raise Mary to a level above God, what I don’t understand is the apparent hatred that she instills in some, and the almost defiant refusal to show her any love or honor whatsoever, which in my opinion is very offensive to God.

Thank you, and God Bless

Brony4Life

Perhaps the problem is that may Protestants, especially evangelicals don’t fully understand the doctrine of Mary. One of the themes of the Reformation was salvation in Christ alone. I believe as a result that we Protestants then proceeded to put Mary in the background as “blessed” and “virgin.” But, we had big problems with ideas like the “Immaculate Conception,” (a concept which was only formally accepted in Vatican I) or the idea of the Assumption of Mary into heaven. It seemed the Church was paying more attention to Mary then to Christ at times. As an example, yesterday (11/27), I was watching the first part of the High Pontifical Mass in Extraordinary Session on EWTN. (It was very beautiful by the way.) The homily however brought me up short. It seemed the bishop spoke more about the “miracle of the medals,” then about Christ and the miracle at Cana (which was the Gospel lesson). The perception someone who was a non-Catholic, especially an evangelical would take away from this would be that the Church seemed more interested in Mary then in her Son, Jesus Christ.

Please do not mistake me. I truly believe as you do that Mary is a neglected saint among Protestants (especially evangelicals). As one writer (evangelical himself) said, “Mary is no longer considered blessed in ever generation.” (speaking of Protestant attitudes) I think the perception may be there is an overemphasis on Mary and not enough on Jesus Her Son. That is what is creating the tension in my opinion.

GE

 

[batman1973]

elisakreisinger.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/eyeroll.gif

Incidentally, while a member may ask that only a specific group of individuals respond, this request will always be superceded by the general CAFs rule which is: all members may respond to ANY thread.

Wow. You know it’s serious when you get a Tina Fey eye roll. but my question to you is then why do you need to respond? The OP I’m sure knows what the Catholic the stance is but wanted to know what the Protestant view was.

 

[PRmerger]

Wow. You know it’s serious when you get a Tina Fey eye roll. but my question to you is then why do you need to respond? The OP I’m sure knows what the Catholic the stance is but wanted to know what the Protestant view was.

Because this venue is a forum. Not an interview.

Thus, there is a discussion. A back and forth of differing views.

And that means that usually by page 2 the conversation has morphed into something else–a tributary that’s often more interesting than the original question.

Which is why I, personally, never ever object to someone being off topic.

Topic? Schmopic. That’s my response.

I leave it to the mods to rein us in when the discussion has veered too much off course. But until then, I relish the directions that natural discourse takes us.

And I appreciate that you saw the humor in the Tina Fey eyerolll.

 

[mpartyka]

You do realize that the consensus in the Church is that Mary did die (though formally her death is referred to as “the completion of her earthly life”).

Right, but Cat Herder’s assertion was that Mary did not die, so as to preserve the integrity of Jesus’ having said, “Some of you will not taste death before you see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

The link you posted does not support your claim that “several of the Church Fathers gave homilies” on Mary’s death, but instead directs us to un-inspired texts akin to the Gnostic gospels. You’re not seriously claiming that the Palm narratives are authoritative, are you?

Sorry, my link was bad. Try this one: pages.uoregon.edu/sshoemak/texts/dormindex.htm

 

[mpartyka]

The girl in Mark 5:41 was dead for for less than one day. Does that mean she one-upped God Himself? Come on.

The girl in Mark 5:41 was raised to continue her earthly life and die again someday, not raised and assumed to Heaven like Jesus, Mary, and the Two Witnesses.

How can it be James’s sentence if he is just repeating what Peter said and everyone fell silent after Peter spoke?

Everyone fell silent after Peter spoke because they couldn’t argue with his experience of having been the first to bring Christianity to the Gentiles. But then Paul and Barnabas spoke and gave their testimony as well, showing that the matter was far from concluded. Lastly James did not parrot Peter but rather gave specific instructions as to what the Gentiles should do. So it was James who gave the verdict. Moreover, the letter that was sent to the churches cited no one person’s particular authority, saying rather that all the apostles and elders were of one accord on the matter – just as the original appeal was for Paul and Barnabas to go to Jerusalem to see what the apostles and elders (i.e., not just one person) had to say on the matter. The Council of Jerusalem was held on account of a request for a consensus judgment, not a papal proclamation.

That no one believed Protestant doctrines for 1500 years shows how inconsequential they are. Double standard.

Well, no, because you’re presenting this illusion that there was a solid consensus in the Church down through the ages about Mary’s sinlessness, when that was clearly not the case.

That is called insulting the finished work of Christ.

Paul even had Timothy circumcised to please the Jews. This is the same Paul who said, “If you are circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.” Why did he do it? Not for Timothy’s sake, but for the sake of Jewish unbelievers who would not have tolerated an uncircumcised Jew in their midst. Paul made Timothy a Jew to the Jews so that the Jews would not stumble over his uncircumcision, but instead be open to the message of the gospel. That’s how Paul rolled.

 

[mpartyka]

No one is proposing that Christ’s divinity is derived from Mary, mpartyka. The question is which belief enhances and highlights Christ’s divinity: the belief that Jesus’ mom was pure and holy, a fitting vessel for The Divine One, or the belief that Jesus’ mom was a depraved creature?

Please note that by “depraved creature” you are also referring to every saint of the Old and New Testaments. That’s a pretty good crowd to rub shoulders with.

But by your logic, why shouldn’t I argue that Mary was attended by a halo of brilliant light all her days? Wouldn’t that glorify her, and therefore Jesus, even more?

Take a page from the Quran itself: How is the Muslim going to feel when you tell him that Jesus did not, in fact, possess the gift of speech even in His infancy, as the Quran says He did? Isn’t that loss of miraculous infant speech going to detract from the glory of Jesus’ divinity? What matters more, in other words: the truth, or whatever embellishments we can put on the truth that might draw in prospective believers?

 

[JonNC]

What’s interesting, Jharek, and without condemning Batman in any way, since belief in the Blessed Virgin’s perpetual virginity for Lutheran is adiaphoron, none of the great Lutheran theologians that I know of, not Luther, not Chemnitz, not Pieper or Piepkorn or Pelikan believed the St. Mary to have had other children, or to have been anything but perpetually a Virgin. Walther claimed it was even beyond questioning!!
And then there’s the Formula of Concord, under the article regarding the Person of Christ:

On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother’s womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and** nevertheless remained a virgin**.

As a Lutheran, I see no reason to disagree with the historic Church regarding the sempre virgo, particularly since this is the historic belief of the great Lutheran theologians, as well.

Jon

 

[Cat_Herder]

Right, but Cat Herder’s assertion was that Mary did not die, so as to preserve the integrity of Jesus’ having said, “Some of you will not taste death before you see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Correct. And I’ve yet to see any Protestant offer any other plausible explanation.

Sorry, my link was bad. Try this one: pages.uoregon.edu/sshoemak/texts/dormindex.htm

The Dormition accounts say She fell asleep and then was assumed.

Did Yoda taste death in Return of the Jedi? No, he took a nap and then disappeared into the Force. If you actually read the dormition accounts that’s what they all say happened to Mary: She falls asleep and then Her body disappears or is otherwise carried by Angels into Heaven. As has been noted the ones that claim She actually did taste death are all dubious.

 

[PRmerger]

Please note that by “depraved creature” you are also referring to every saint of the Old and New Testaments. That’s a pretty good crowd to rub shoulders with.

No doubt. Until they received their baptism.

But by your logic, why shouldn’t I argue that Mary was attended by a halo of brilliant light all her days? Wouldn’t that glorify her, and therefore Jesus, even more?

Sure. And I have no doubt that she* was* attended by a halo of brilliant light.

There is nothing in Scriptures that contradict this.

And perhaps those who did not see it were blinded by their sin, and those who did see it only affirmed their veneration of her.

 

[Publisher]

Nothing what so ever. She is creature…not Creator. She has honor as the mother of Jesus of Nazareth…but she is not the Savior. Yes…she said “Yes” to God, and as an example of how a Christian should live, par excellence…but still…she is creature.