This question is for Protestants only. What do you have against Mary?

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PRmerger said:
There’s a difference between the Real Presence of Christ, present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Eucharist, and asking Jesus into our hearts.

Think of the difference between this: being fully present to your wife, physically in the same room with her, vs saying (while you are away on a business trip, for example): “My wife is present with me always, in my heart, even when I’m away.”

For the former it’s fitting for you to be clean and groomed, right? (At least, I hope so you wish to be). For the latter, it makes no difference what your personal hygiene is–she’s still present “in your heart.”
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PR—As Catholics and Protestants, do we not truly believe that the Holy Spirit really abides in us, as His own Person, not just as Someone who is present in our longings and memories, the way our human loved ones can be “present in our hearts” in your example?
 
PRmerger said:
There’s a difference between the Real Presence of Christ, present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Eucharist, and asking Jesus into our hearts.
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It seems to me that here you’re misunderstanding, and greatly diminishing, what Protestants mean by talking about Jesus being in our hearts.
 
mpartyka said:
Since the Transfiguration occurred immediately afterwards, some Protestants point to that as a foretaste of seeing Jesus coming with His kingdom.
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The Transfiguration does not fit Mark 13:26-27 and only works for Mark 8:38-39 if you split those verses into two separate comings with the Transfiguration being verse 39 (or Mark 9:1 in modern Bibles) and the end of the world being verse 38, since no judging occurs at the Transfiguration. See for yourself:

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 8:38-39[/BIBLEDRB]
If I recall the dormition accounts from my brief skimming of them last night, most (I think) of the accounts speak of the Virgin Mary’s soul as having been transferred to Jesus’ care before her body was assumed to Heaven. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the final separation of the soul from the body prior to resurrection is what we normally call "death."
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Not necessarily.
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 13:35-36[/BIBLEDRB]
Paul goes on to contrast David’s death with that of Christ, Who of course did not suffer “corruption” although He did experience the separation of body and soul that you describe while He went to convert the souls in prison. So when Jesus said, “this generation shall not pass away,” He could be saying either that His Mother would fall asleep but not suffer corruption and then be resurrected and assumed (as He was, though He ascended to Heaven through His own power), or perhaps that She did not die at all but was assumed in the same manner as Enoch and Elijah. In either case, She did not “die” in the way that any of us do, and in either case you have an answer to these difficult verses that does not exist in Protestantism.
 
"Cat Herder:
Did Yoda taste death in Return of the Jedi? No, he took a nap and then disappeared into the Force.
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stewstew03 said:
This is, hands down, the most brilliant illustration anyone has ever used in relation to the Assumption of Mary.
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Thanks. There’s no such thing as an original thought; maybe George Lucas subconsciously got the idea from the Dormition/Assumption.
 
AbideWithMe said:
PR—As Catholics and Protestants, do we not truly believe that the Holy Spirit really abides in us, as His own Person, not just as Someone who is present in our longings and memories, the way our human loved ones can be “present in our hearts” in your example?
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It’s my understanding that the Spirit dwells within us in a relational sense, not in a spatial sense.

In Mary’s womb, Jesus did take up residence in a spatial and relational sense.
 
AbideWithMe said:
PR—As Catholics and Protestants, do we not truly believe that the Holy Spirit really abides in us, as His own Person, not just as Someone who is present in our longings and memories, the way our human loved ones can be “present in our hearts” in your example?
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Yes, but you guys can’t coherently explain how the Holy Spirit comes into your heart because you got rid of the Sacraments, as explained on this thread where this off-topic discussion can be continued.
 
AbideWithMe said:
PR—As Catholics and Protestants, do we not truly believe that the Holy Spirit really abides in us, as His own Person, not just as Someone who is present in our longings and memories, the way our human loved ones can be “present in our hearts” in your example?
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Yes, I understand that. My analogy was imperfect, but I think it limns that difference between a physical presence and a spiritual presence. Inadequate description, but sufficient for this discussion nonetheless.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Many people both of genius intellect and martyr faith hav;)e disagreed
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The pride of protestantism where one must know the greek, hebrew, historical and grammatical nuances, and lean on their own intellect to discover truth, a true religion for the intellegencia!

Thank God for a Deposit of faith 👍

I will use my less than average intellect to simply trust Jesus and His word Prima Facie THOU ART PETER …AS THE FATHER SENDS ME, I SEND YOU… THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD WAS REVEALED THROUGH THE CHURCH…THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH etc…etc…

Some very wise JW’s suffered death at the hands of Nazi’s with the Jews, and many other intelligent people from other religions have died for their faith, it doesn’t make JW’s or other non-christian religions true because of it.
 
PRmerger said:
Yes, I understand that. My analogy was imperfect, but I think it limns that difference between a physical presence and a spiritual presence. Inadequate description, but sufficient for this discussion nonetheless.
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PR—Your second example, of a husband and wife keeping each other present in their hearts, is really just their imaginations, memories, and longings at work. These human faculties are all good things where appropriate, of course, but in no way are they true spiritual presence in the way the Holy Spirit is truly spiritually present in His Personhood in our spirits. For that reason, I don’t think that example is applicable to this discussion.
 
stewstew03 said:
It’s my understanding that the Spirit dwells within us in a relational sense, not in a spatial sense.

In Mary’s womb, Jesus did take up residence in a spatial and relational sense.
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Stewstew—Yes, I’d agree the Holy Spirit dwells in us in a relational sense, and not in a physical sense as Jesus was physically in Mary’s womb. But, I think it’s also fair to surmise that in some way our spirits have a spatial sense. Look at the story of Jesus casting out the legion of unclean spirits from a man into a herd of pigs. In some manner we don’t fully understand, the unclean spirits dwelt in the spiritual space of the man, and had to go into another space—the pigs. Jesus didn’t just say to the man, “Be free----stop relating to the unclean spirits which are binding you.” He cast them out and sent them somewhere else.

In Ephesians 3:16-17, Paul writes “I pray that out of His glorious riches He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts; through faith.” I don’t think any religion, or any scientists or psychologists are even close to fully understanding how our bodies and souls interface, but I believe it’s fair to say we have an “inner being”, as Paul puts it. As such, I believe the Holy Spirit can sanctify and clean His dwelling place in our inner being by His presence.

One of my pastors when I was younger pointed out that the priests in Judaism could not touch anything unclean without becoming unclean themselves. Then Jesus comes, and the reverse happens: He deliberately touches the unclean, and His touch transfers His cleanness to the unclean.
 
Ok, I probably shouldn’t say anything here as this seems to be getting HOT…But,
I was raised Southern Baptist (Lord forgive me) and am working towards a Catholic conversion. I am still having a “Mary” battle with my dear mother (who insists I have joined a cult) because the thinking is:
  1. By praying to Mary and the icons of her in the Catholic religion is considered idolatry (same for Saints, BTW).
  2. They don’t view her as forever a virgin. Immaculate conception is believed but not after the birth of Jesus.
  3. And, that she is revered by Jesus only as his earthly mother.
Please don’t yell at the messenger, the Catholic reverence of the Blessed Mother and Holy Queen is one of the many reasons that I am led to the Holy Catholic Church. That and I got tired of being paranoid of the vengeful God that was “gonna get me if I sinned”. I still need therapy over that…
 
Welcome to CAF! And blessings to you on your journey towards Catholicism. Take it one day at a time.

Receiving the Eucharist brings you into eternal life. And with the Eucharist, it will open up to you a new reality about life. That is because you are receiving the nourishment of Christ’s very own Body, Blood, His soul, and Divinity.

There have been married people down through the ages that both decided to live the consecrated celibate life.

There have been consecrated virgins who were martyred in ancient times because Christ fulfilled their total being.

In our churches, we have the tabernacle lit, that tells us Jesus is there, and we are to come in to adore Him in our midst.

Mary was always present before Jesus at Nazareth in their home, True Man and True God. She knew He was God. She knew He was having beatific visions. She knew He was the same God Who parted the Red Sea, and led the people out of Egypt as a Pillar of Fire. He appeared to the prophets in various forms, from a burning bush to coming in the gentle breeze.

Mary faced Christ, the Son of God, Who created of all things. Jesus, Logos, is the Living Word of God, and it is Jesus through Whom God created the universe.

Mary lived a life of adoration, the contemplative life. Mother Theresa of Calcutta says Mary is the world’s greatest contemporary. Just as the apostles claimed later on they knew they were chosen before they were born at the appointed time, Mary in her magnificat knew she was blessed of all women and would be praised through every generation for her “yes” to God.

Just as God created the apostles to be the witnesses of Jesus Christ, by whom we have received our faith in the Lord, likewise God created Mary sinless to be the mother of God.

We have to step back and see that Mary is the highest of all God’s creation, and we also have to see how disfiguring sin is on our souls, how sin impacted the entire universe with man wanting to be as a god…to the Risen Lord drawing all men back to Himself.

Mary witnessed all of this. It unfolded to her. And the dogma on the Immaculate Conception took over 1800 years for the Church to discern through the study of faith and ascetism, ongoing truths of spirituality by the saints on the road to perfection.

Mary’s road to God was different than ours. But her greatest virtue is humility. She did not want to draw attention to herself but to Christ. As God’s greatest creation in the universe, Christ’s mother, she is the epitome of all spiritual beauty of creation personified in her womanhood.

So you see alot of pictures and images of Mary…as the first and primary Christian of every single generation that has come after her. Her intercession and presence began to be made known among the ancient Christians around 200 AD. The charism of her then was, Mary Star of the Sea…she a sign in darkness to lead them to Christ. The icons and pictures through Mary affirm God’s presence with us, and we see in the model of perfect faith and praise in God.

Mary is our greatest companion to Christ among the communion of saints. And she is our heavenly mother.

The greatest help is to meet Marian Catholics who can become a trusted friend and share with you Mary in their life.

And pray for spiritual healing of all those things taught against her. Mary crushed the head of Satan with her heel. She, a creature the same as Satan, is his archenemy.

Mary is our greatest advocate at death. And for sinners, as a mother, she has spiritual power to put people back in the right form so they have the courage to face God again and seek and trust in His forgiveness. Returning back to God after living a sinful life is very frightening and many feel God won’t forgive them and abandon Him. She gives them hope that He will forgive them, and gives them strength and grace to approach the Lord again.
 
dee_burk said:
Ok, I probably shouldn’t say anything here as this seems to be getting HOT…But,
I was raised Southern Baptist (Lord forgive me) and am working towards a Catholic conversion. I am still having a “Mary” battle with my dear mother (who insists I have joined a cult) because the thinking is:
  1. By praying to Mary and the icons of her in the Catholic religion is considered idolatry (same for Saints, BTW).
  2. They don’t view her as forever a virgin. Immaculate conception is believed but not after the birth of Jesus.
  3. And, that she is revered by Jesus only as his earthly mother.
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  1. You just need to show her this video. 😉
    youtube.com/watch?v=YrindhlNCpY
  2. The immaculate conception is not the belief that Mary always remained a virgin (though true), but “that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin.”
    papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm
 
AbideWithMe said:
Stewstew—Yes, I’d agree the Holy Spirit dwells in us in a relational sense, and not in a physical sense as Jesus was physically in Mary’s womb. But, I think it’s also fair to surmise that in some way our spirits have a spatial sense. Look at the story of Jesus casting out the legion of unclean spirits from a man into a herd of pigs. In some manner we don’t fully understand, the unclean spirits dwelt in the spiritual space of the man, and had to go into another space—the pigs. Jesus didn’t just say to the man, “Be free----stop relating to the unclean spirits which are binding you.” He cast them out and sent them somewhere else.
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This is a great explanation as to the limitation of demons. Demons (and angels) are creatures that are limited to time and space. God, the Holy Spirit, is not a creature, but the Creator.
In Ephesians 3:16-17, Paul writes “I pray that out of His glorious riches He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts; through faith.” I don’t think any religion, or any scientists or psychologists are even close to fully understanding how our bodies and souls interface, but I believe it’s fair to say we have an “inner being”, as Paul puts it. As such, I believe the Holy Spirit can sanctify and clean His dwelling place in our inner being by His presence.
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Agreed. So… if you believe God can consecrate His dwelling place, why would you think He couldn’t (or wouldn’t) consecrate Mary at her conception, and therefore sanctify her womb for Christ’s presence?
One of my pastors when I was younger pointed out that the priests in Judaism could not touch anything unclean without becoming unclean themselves. Then Jesus comes, and the reverse happens: He deliberately touches the unclean, and His touch transfers His cleanness to the unclean.
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I’m not sure how this comment is relevant, but I’ll respond by asking: what happened to Uzzah when he touched the ark of the covenant?

Can God approach Man without any qualification? Yes. Can Man approach God in the same manner? No. We must have “permission” to approach God.

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:44[/BIBLEDRB]
 
Those who so readily accuse of Mary idolatry are at the same time completely closed to hear how we worship…such depth our worship of Jesus.

I personally see the devil at work in how he fights the Blessed Mother.
 
It might be time for a moderator to intervene in this topic. The bounds of civility have in some places been transgressed.
 
Indifferently said:
It might be time for a moderator to intervene in this topic. The bounds of civility have in some places been transgressed.
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That’s one of the things that always “confuses” me. If “civility” cannot be maintained when discussing spiritual things…what does that say concerning the “impact” of “XYZ” teaching on one’s heart…if that teaching one is supporting does not promote gentleness, kindness, charitable responses…then what “good” is such a teaching?🤷
 
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