This question is for Protestants only. What do you have against Mary?

[Cat_Herder]

Not really answering the question. Since God created a world in which humans have free will, allowing human beings to exercise their free will and sin makes is fitting – otherwise, why have free will at all? But Original Sin isn’t chosen but inherited – here we’re talking about God preserving human beings from inheriting a condition that prompts them from within to sin. If God could and did do this for Mary, He could do it for all of humankind. Yet He hasn’t done so, and that doesn’t seem very fitting for a God who claims to hate sin. If God is no respector of persons – i.e., please don’t give me that “Wouldn’t you do that for your mother?” nonsense – why did He preserve Mary from Original Sin and not all of humankind? Why doesn’t all of humankind start with the blank slate that Mary received?

God does not “hate” anyone or anything, so that’s the first of your misunderstandings. God permits sin to exist so that He can bring good out of it (Exhibit “A” is Calvary).

Your next misunderstanding is that someone born without original sin is immune from committing actual sin. Of course, Adam and Eve were born without original sin but they went on to commit actual sin.

And finally, God does give certain graces to certain people that He does not give to others. Enoch and Elijah were raptured but none of the Apostles were, nor will you and I be (unless we are alive at the Second Coming). This does not mean that God is not just. None of us deserve ANY grace at all, and we have no right to demand justice or fairness from God. God is infinitely merciful but He brings that mercy forth in different ways for different people because He has a plan that is much better than anything we can come up with. The Immaculate Conception was part of that plan as explained in Genesis 3:15–enmity would be put between a Woman and the devil so that Her Seed, Jesus, could crush the devil. God did not have to bring about our salvation in this way, but He chose to do so and there is no point in questioning what is written.

 

[Cat_Herder]

That Mary was unique doesn’t make her any less a woman, and a married woman at that. Cat Herder argued that for Joseph to have coupled with his lawfully wedded wife would have been a “defilement” akin to touching the Ark of the Covenant. I’m just asking if the act of sex is in and of itself a defiling act, even in the context of marriage, because that’s how it is apparentely being presented here, though Paul says in 1 Cor 7 that those who marry do not sin in marrying. Unless “defilement” is something other than sin, like feeding the dog off the good china – it’s not wrong, but it just feels wrong somehow, like you’re using something special for a mundane purpose. If that’s all that’s being said, never mind.

Did you even read that post? You are totally ignoring Ezekiel. If you don’t believe Mary is the Temple Gate then identify the Temple Gate. If you don’t know, then go read the Bible and educate yourself. But don’t ignore the Bible and derail the thread into something potentially offensive.

 

[Prieldedi]

You’re joking, of course.

Rom 3:19 – Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

At best you could say that “all the world” means “all the Jews”, since Paul is talking about “them who are under the law.” But Mary’s a Jew, so she wouldn’t naturally escape from the clause – although neither would Jesus, so certainly exceptions can exist.

According to the doctrine of Original Sin, though, all human beings conceived in the natural way carry within them the disorder of their persons – they essentially sin against God in that they are not what they ought to be. Moreover, the Original Sin of Adam and Eve is a demonstration of imputed guilt in that a perfect, sinless man and woman sinned against God in a perfect world with only one temptation, thus putting all of humanity under condemnation in that they demonstrated what you, I, or any other naturally perfect human would do in such a situation – i.e., in Adam and Eve it is demonstrated that any man or woman who is naturally perfect would rebel against God given the chance, so even those who have not yet had the chance are guilty on that account. (This, too, is one reason I do not believe in the Virgin Mary’s sinlessness – Jesus’ sinlessness I can believe because his humanity was hypostatically united to the Godhead, but Mary’s humanity, even if naturally perfect in every way, could not have withstood the assault of temptation any more than Eve’s did. And if Mary could succeed where Eve failed, why didn’t God make Mary Adam’s bride in Eden and save us the trouble of falling and needing redemption? Mary’s succeeding where Eve failed would imply that God in fact wanted Eve – and in her, all of us – to fall.)

No, I’m not joking.

“All have sinned” is not equal to “all are born with the original sin”. The first involves an act of conscience, a desire to brake the laws of God. The second is a stain every human being is born with, no desire to brake God’s law required here. A baby that dies the day he is born cannot commit sin. It is a very short life, yet that baby goes to God having committed no sin. If baptized, the original sin is removed. But never in his life he sinned.

Go back a little more in Romans 3:

10 as the Scripture says:
Nobody is good, not even one,
11 no one understands, no one looks for God.
12 All have gone astray and have become base. There is no one doing what is good, not even one.
13 Their throats are open tombs, their words deceit.
14 Their lips hide poison of vipers, from their mouth come bitter curses.
15 They run to where they can shed blood,
16 leaving behind ruin and misery.
17 They do not know the way of peace,
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Does this includes Paul himself? Isn’t he good? Doesn’t he understand? Doesn’t he look for God? Is his throat an open tomb and his words deceit? Have his lips the poison of vipers?

He says that Scripture says “no one understands, no one looks for God”, so that includes him and the Apostles. If “ALL” means every human being of all time… “NO ONE understands” means the same, that “ALL” human beings do not understand, not even him. Has Paul gone astray? Do you think Mary went astray too? All have gone astray he says, “ALL” includes Paul and Mary, right? I hope you realize where this line of reasoning can take you.

 

[ADZ]

I have nothing against Mary, she is dead and in the grave awaiting Christs return.
I do have a problem in praying to dead people, and in the Bible God condemed such acts.

 

[RickDecker]

Well, batman could contact the moderator.

Instead, batman has chosen to participate numerous times since alerting everyone that this thread was “a set up.”

I am a new poster. I had come to this forum hoping to see constructive dialogue between Catholics and non-Catholics. This thread, as well as others, has demonstrated that at least a large minority of the posters are not committed to such a dialogue.

You, sir, are one of those posters. You are simply a troll who amuses himself by antagonizing other posters. I have seen it in this and other threads. Why you do it is known only to yourself. But it does not reflect well on this forum and its purported charitableness.