This quote hit me hard

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“Strange, indeed, that you should not have suspected that your universe and its contents were only dreams, visions, fiction! Strange, because they are so frankly and hysterically insane—like all dreams: a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice and invented hell—mouths mercy and invented hell—mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites a poor, abused slave to worship him!”
 
“Strange, indeed, that you should not have suspected that your universe and its contents were only dreams, visions, fiction! Strange, because they are so frankly and hysterically insane—like all dreams: a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice and invented hell—mouths mercy and invented hell—mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites a poor, abused slave to worship him!”
I’ve not seen that particular quote before, who is it? Sounds like Nietzsche, few other people could write such tripe.

ETA - Mark Twain. Oh well, just as tripey coming from him as anyone.

First chapter of the Bible - God made us good, then gave us free will. We made ourselves bad

Who says none of us have ever been happy? On earth or in heaven?

Many have willingly given their lives up for various causes (which shows they do not prize them above principle)

God did not invent hell, we created it for ourselves with our rejection of Him.

What idols has God worshipped, please tell me. What adulteries has He committed, what lies has He told, what has He stolen?

Are we not responsible for our acts - do we have no free will at all? Why then do we clamour for criminals to be punished for their crimes?

We certainly are free to choose not worship Him, like we are free to chose not to eat. Yet spiritually we die without that worship as surely as physically we die without that food.

Poor abused slaves? Is a child who gives its time, energy and financial resources to caring for a parent and in consequence has less time energy and money for itself then a slave of that parent? Abused by that parent? Not by any definition of ‘slavery’ or ‘abuse’ I can think of.
 
I see why it would hit hard. The truth, especially when it is eloquently written, can really sting…
 
I see why it would hit hard. The truth, especially when it is eloquently written, can really sting…
Except this is neither truth nor eloquent - it is the immature whinings of a five year old schoolboy’s mind unfortunately expressed by a supposedly adult man.
 
“Strange, indeed, that you should not have suspected that your universe and its contents were only dreams, visions, fiction! Strange, because they are so frankly and hysterically insane—like all dreams: a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice and invented hell—mouths mercy and invented hell—mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites a poor, abused slave to worship him!”
But why couldn’t he just have made us good to begin with? If he is all powerful why did he even let evil exist in the first place? Does he not have power over all?

Why did he make life so beautiful, yet thousands of hearts are broken daily by death? A death which has no promise of an afterlife, no sign from God that there is a heaven, no visible evidence as comfort.

We definitely did not “invent hell.” What gave you that idea? I would never invent such a place. Even the worst sinner would never want to invent somewhere in which there is eternal torture and torment.

He HAS committed lies. Jesus promises God will give us what we ask in his name. When my friend’s wife gets struck by a car and he screams out to Jesus begging for his wife to live and she ends up dying the next day, God did not fulfill his promise.

He invites us to worship him despite a world of hurt, tragedy, death, despair, and confusion. A planet amongst thousands of stars and other planets with no explanation why. Cancer, heart attacks, strokes, sudden deaths, etc. Heartaches and losing loved ones. It is an imperfect world. That’s what he is saying.

If God really had that much power, and TRULY wanted us to be happy, he should’ve made it that way.
 
Except this is neither truth nor eloquent - it is the immature whinings of a five year old schoolboy’s mind unfortunately expressed by a supposedly adult man.
Think about it - all the contrasts drawn make sense in light of the supposedly ‘truthful’ stories contained in the Bible, and also a handful of apocryphal notions embraced by the Catholic Church. Plain speaking in the face of determined obfuscation always comes across as eloquence to me, I have to say…
 
But why couldn’t he just have made us good to begin with? If he is all powerful why did he even let evil exist in the first place? Does he not have power over all?

Why did he make life so beautiful, yet thousands of hearts are broken daily by death? A death which has no promise of an afterlife, no sign from God that there is a heaven, no visible evidence as comfort.

We definitely did not “invent hell.” What gave you that idea? I would never invent such a place. Even the worst sinner would never want to invent somewhere in which there is eternal torture and torment.

He HAS committed lies. Jesus promises God will give us what we ask in his name. When my friend’s wife gets struck by a car and he screams out to Jesus begging for his wife to live and she ends up dying the next day, God did not fulfill his promise.

He invites us to worship him despite a world of hurt, tragedy, death, despair, and confusion. A planet amongst thousands of stars and other planets with no explanation why. Cancer, heart attacks, strokes, sudden deaths, etc. Heartaches and losing loved ones. It is an imperfect world. That’s what he is saying.

If God really had that much power, and TRULY wanted us to be happy, he should’ve made it that way.
You’ve just described every parent who has ever existed. What a bunch of monsters our parents have all been - letting their toddlers walk around knowing for mortal certainty that those children are going to fall and hurt themselves from time to time. Taking them to the doctors for all those horrible vaccinations when they know there’s only a slim chance those children will catch the diseases they’re being vaccinated against.

Giving them bicycles when they know those kids will fall off and skin their knees. Sending them to school to learn when they know that at least sometimes they’re going to fail - or at least be upset by a less-than-perfect grade. Not giving them mountains of sugar and guns and knives to play with for the asking.

Parents don’t do these things because they are cruel. They do them because they need to. Because they know that we, stubborn human beings that we are, usually learn best through walking (or getting on that bike or doing that tough maths quiz) and falling and getting up again and trying again. Over and over again until we get it right.

They know that endless supplies of sugary treats, and free access to dangerous weapons, is bad for us, no matter how prettily we may plead for them, and that gettingvaccinations, getting to sleep early, doing our homework and eating our vegetables are good for us, no matter that we don’t at the time see the sense in doing these things.

Jesus also said ‘who, if his child asks for a fish, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for bread will give him a snake’? He knew full well that sometimes the child will ask for the stone or the snake, not knowing that such things are no good, or at least no use, to them. You need to do some research into what ‘in My name’ actually means. It doesn’t simply mean that tacking the words ‘in Jesus’ name’ onto the end of a prayer guarantees that you will receive what you pray for as you are guaranteed to receive a can of Coke for putting the correct change into a vending machine.

Lots of evil things have surely been prayed for ‘in Jesus’ name’, after all, do you think God ought have granted all of them? What if you found out your friend’s wife had died because some malevolent person prayed as fervently for her to die as your friend did for her to live? Would you then be happy that He had granted that prayer?

As an afterthought - she IS living - just not on Earth. And probably as much good from her family from where she is now as she could while she was alive - the Saints certainly work powerful miracles through their intercession. Perhaps God took her to Him for that reason? Of course your friend is hurting and grieving and will think all this sounds callous and simplistic but that sort of hope - nay, promise - is anything but. Is it really better to extinguish that hope and not trust in that promise? To believe that she died through dumb luck and there is nothing left - no hope, no promise, nothing to uplift and help with the grief?

ETA - ‘invent’ is the wrong word. Certainly those who go to Hell choose to go there in the same sense that criminals choose their fines and jail sentences in choosing to commit their crimes. More so in that criminals can be punished merely for doing the wrong necessarily being aware of any details of the punishment the law attaches to it, whereas we are told plainly in scripture how terrible Hell is and so are not unwarned.
 
Think about it - all the contrasts drawn make sense in light of the supposedly ‘truthful’ stories contained in the Bible, and also a handful of apocryphal notions embraced by the Catholic Church. Plain speaking in the face of determined obfuscation always comes across as eloquence to me, I have to say…
Plain speaking of easily-refuted falsehoods, based on a ridiculous underlying premise that God needs to conform Himself to human ideas of what they would do in His place, comes across to me as anything but eloquence.
 
Now He has come down to be rejected, ridiculed, shamed and brutally executed. Is this some God who seems indifferent to suffering or one who comes down to suffer with us and alongside us and promises to glorify us after all our sorrows? He does not seem to just look down upon us, but He made Himself even lower than us and experienced our pain. He shed tears with us, suffered poverty, suffered hunger, suffered betrayal, suffered shame, suffered agony and suffered death.

Think about that. God expressed His sorrow for us through Jesus. And like Jesus bore His crosses innocently, God will do the same for us if we trust in Him. We shall be His children and He our Father. The weak and innocent shall prosper.
 
I’ve not seen that particular quote before, who is it? Sounds like Nietzsche, few other people could write such tripe.
Really? I think every atheist drop-out working in fast food can write it. Especially if they have read Mark Twain. It reeks of theological ignorance and the thread, on Christmas Eve, is more than a little trollish. Twain always fancied himself an intellectual, when he was mostly an overated blowhard.
 
Really? I think every atheist drop-out working in fast food can write it. I reeks of theological ignorance and the thread, on Christmas Eve, is more than a little trollish.
Well, from what I’ve read of Nietzche he had a bit of a peculiar gift for it, if you can call it that> Theological ignorance indeed, as well as human hubris.
 
Plain speaking of easily-refuted falsehoods, based on a ridiculous underlying premise that God needs to conform Himself to human ideas of what they would do in His place, comes across to me as anything but eloquence.
What falsehoods, exactly? Does God make separate demands of angels and humans, or does he not? Does he flout the commandments by which he expects humans to live, or not? As for the claim that God should not be expected to conform to human expectations, this argument falls flat every time it’s advanced - God is supposed to be perfect and good - even perfectly good - in such a way that we humans could discern his perfection and goodness. When we happen to notice that, well, he is claimed to have done quite a lot of stuff that looks, quite frankly, very bad from our perspective, we are sanctimoniously informed that we can’t judge God by mere human standards. Yes, indeed, plain speaking is the enemy of ‘sophisticated’ theology.
 
Really? I think every atheist drop-out working in fast food can write it. Especially if they have read Mark Twain. It reeks of theological ignorance and the thread, on Christmas Eve, is more than a little trollish. Twain always fancied himself an intellectual, when he was mostly an overated blowhard.
When I read his works of fiction I thought he was great (I still do), but when I read his personal works, non-fiction that is, I always thought he was trying to exaggerate his intellectual prowess, that he was the “hipster” of his day and age. He just came across as a pretentious idiot.

As for the quote: it doesn’t sting me. It makes me roll my eyes. In fact, it made me chuckle.
 
What falsehoods, exactly? Does God make separate demands of angels and humans, or does he not? Does he flout the commandments by which he expects humans to live, or not? As for the claim that God should not be expected to conform to human expectations, this argument falls flat every time it’s advanced - God is supposed to be perfect and good - even perfectly good - in such a way that we humans could discern his perfection and goodness. When we happen to notice that, well, he is claimed to have done quite a lot of stuff that looks, quite frankly, very bad from our perspective, we are sanctimoniously informed that we can’t judge God by mere human standards. Yes, indeed, plain speaking is the enemy of ‘sophisticated’ theology.
It is funny how in literature we see things more clearly than we do in reality. When a fool conquers emperors through weakness and foolishness we find it profound in literature, but in real life we are looking forward to power being met with power. Poetic justice and God go hand in hand. We don’t find God profound but silly because we are not looking carefully.
 
It is funny how in literature we see things more clearly than we do in reality. When a fool conquers emperors through weakness and foolishness we find it profound in literature, but in real life we are looking forward to power being met with power. Poetic justice and God go hand in hand. We don’t find God profound but silly because we are not looking carefully.
I have never denied that there are good stories in the Bible - plenty of human drama, with a bit of magic thrown in. But the thing is, works of fiction don’t generally carry any claim of literal truth, and usually only give a cursory nod to historical truth. Even amongst literary creations, there are those that ring truer than others.

There are undoubtedly emotional truths to be explored through fiction - but I doubt anyone who claims genuine belief in God would consider him a mere literary device for exploring human questions and yearnings. Humans are hardwired to tell stories, it seems - what makes the stories told about gods and mythological figures any different to the stories told about anyone else? Only the people who take them as literal truth.
 
Okay, okay, do you see how God has toppled empires not through a show of might but through hanging limp on a stick? How he alienates the wise and scholarly and attracts the broken and despondent because the wise cannot see power in the cross and the sorrowful can see the face of a loving God in Jesus? Poetic justice declares a reversal of fortunes, and that is indeed what the Bible teaches. Those who have much see Jesus as some foolish dead Jewish preacher and those who have nothing in this world see Him as their only hope. His actions both attract and repel, separating humanity into two categories, confounds and emboldens. Anyone who sees this from a literary point of view sees God as wise–not by men’s eyes but infinitively wiser than men.

If such tales move us so fundamentally that we tell them over and over again–what does it say about God being good and righteous? It is truer than true. Now what would we do if this is in fact reality? There is good archaeological evidence for the bible, there are also miracles reported throughout history, some scientists have even studied stigmata and Eucharistic miracles. Anyone who dies and sees will have to declare that God is just–because we know fundamentally that it has to be just. We would not consider such stories worthy if their was nothing righteous about them.
 
What falsehoods, exactly? Does God make separate demands of angels and humans, or does he not? Does he flout the commandments by which he expects humans to live, or not? As for the claim that God should not be expected to conform to human expectations, this argument falls flat every time it’s advanced - God is supposed to be perfect and good - even perfectly good - in such a way that we humans could discern his perfection and goodness. When we happen to notice that, well, he is claimed to have done quite a lot of stuff that looks, quite frankly, very bad from our perspective, we are sanctimoniously informed that we can’t judge God by mere human standards. Yes, indeed, plain speaking is the enemy of ‘sophisticated’ theology.
Of course Gid should make the same demands of humans as He does of angels - which would be like a parent setting the exact same curfew and number and type of household chores for a five year old as for a sixteen year old. To do so would be nonsensical.

Angels, having different capacities and natures to humans, and therefore different strengths and weaknesses, are not subject to the same demands or expectations, nor should they be.

In what way does God flout His commands? Does anyone accuse a parent of “flouting” the rules merely because they, for example, send their youngsters to bed at 7pm and themselves stay up tip midnight? Or forbid their 12 year old from drinking when they themselves partake in alcohol? There is no flouting or hypocrisy or anything untoward in the fact that God, being divine and our creator, has powers and privileges that we do not.

And you certainly lost me with any suggestion that God has to make His perfection understandable to us. We are certainly not by any stretch paragons of wisdom or rationality or discernment, and I would say we are probably not even capable of fully understanding what perfect love and goodness are - at least in our current limited state of being - let alone recognising it if we saw it. I would almost go so far as to assert that something which is completely comprehensible to us is highly unlikely to be perfect.

To go back yet again to the well worn but useful parenting analogy - a mother takes her baby to the doctor for a vaccination. There is no hope, with that baby’s understanding being so limited by comparison to the mother’s, that it will possibly comprehend the necessity, let alone the loving care, that lies behind that mother’s decision to inflict the needle. All the baby understands is the pain. Is the mother then supposed to just not vaccinate it?
 
Okay, okay, do you see how God has toppled empires not through a show of might but through hanging limp on a stick? How he alienates the wise and scholarly and attracts the broken and despondent because the wise cannot see power in the cross and the sorrowful can see the face of a loving God in Jesus? Poetic justice declares a reversal of fortunes, and that is indeed what the Bible teaches. Those who have much see Jesus as some foolish dead Jewish preacher and those who have nothing in this world see Him as their only hope. His actions both attract and repel, separating humanity into two categories, confounds and emboldens. Anyone who sees this from a literary point of view sees God as wise–not by men’s eyes but infinitively wiser than men.

If such tales move us so fundamentally that we tell them over and over again–what does it say about God being good and righteous? It is truer than true. Now what would we do if this is in fact reality? There is good archaeological evidence for the bible, there are also miracles reported throughout history, some scientists have even studied stigmata and Eucharistic miracles. Anyone who dies and sees will have to declare that God is just–because we know fundamentally that it has to be just. We would not consider such stories worthy if their was nothing righteous about them.
Like all literary works, what the stories in the Bible express are human desires, human beliefs, and what we humans believe to be right at any given time. Sometimes certain human societies found it favourable to slaughter their neighbours down to the last infant, and also found it favourable to claim sanction from their god to justify their actions; at other times, when they felt powerless to overthrow the ruling authorities, it was much more believable to pin their hopes upon a more subtle subversion of power, upon the idea that a ‘meek and mild’ individual could stand in the face of oppression and overcome it, at least by dying and thus escaping. Cue the expansion of this ideal into the notion that we are all destined for an afterlife of peace and justice…so that we don’t need to worry too much about what happens here and now.

Yes, of course there is value in the ideas expressed through these stories - but that value is not in any literal truth, but rather in challenging our ways of thinking. The idea of a martyr messiah challenged the notion of a warrior messiah, but that doesn’t change the fact that determination and - at times - aggression is just as necessary as passivity if one seeks to effect change in the world.

There was a time when Christianity provided a challenge to the ruling set of beliefs, but there’s little doubt that force and coercion played a role in the conversion of many peoples, just as much - if not more - than any intellectual persuasion or emotional appeal. Nowadays, nonbelief is finally providing a vocal challenge to the norm of religious faith (Christian and otherwise).

The response of the various faiths has been to clamp down and to protest, on the one hand, against ‘unjust persecution’ (as if they did not mete out enough of that in the heyday of religious power) at the hands of ‘rampant secularism’; and on the other, to assume the intellectual and moral high ground - neither of which they have any right to claim, if the facts of history and science, and the core ideas of religions, are brought to light in plain speech.
 
Of course Gid should make the same demands of humans as He does of angels - which would be like a parent setting the exact same curfew and number and type of household chores for a five year old as for a sixteen year old. To do so would be nonsensical.

Angels, having different capacities and natures to humans, and therefore different strengths and weaknesses, are not subject to the same demands or expectations, nor should they be.
Then the question remains, why create two such classes of beings, if dependence, worship and love were the desired outcome?
In what way does God flout His commands?
By ordering genocide, by demanding child slaughter, by exercising mercy only in return for ultimate sacrifice…by putting humans to the test, unjustly (cf the Book of Job) whilst demanding that no-one do the same to him…I could go on.
Does anyone accuse a parent of “flouting” the rules merely because they, for example, send their youngsters to bed at 7pm and themselves stay up tip midnight? Or forbid their 12 year old from drinking when they themselves partake in alcohol?
Poor comparison - if a parent demanded that their child shoot someone, that might be a more fitting analogy.
There is no flouting or hypocrisy or anything untoward in the fact that God, being divine and our creator, has powers and privileges that we do not.
Then God is neither benevolent nor just. Simple as that.
And you certainly lost me with any suggestion that God has to make His perfection understandable to us.
So we are expected to merely assume it without evidence? So much for the rationality we were supposedly gifted with.
We are certainly not by any stretch paragons of wisdom or rationality or discernment, and I would say we are probably not even capable of fully understanding what perfect love and goodness are - at least in our current limited state of being - let alone recognising it if we saw it.
And in the absence of any ability to control these attributes ourselves, our shortcomings must be laid at the feet of God - assuming he has anything like feet in the first place.
I would almost go so far as to assert that something which is completely comprehensible to us is highly unlikely to be perfect.
What a wonderful get-out-of-jail-free clause for God!
To go back yet again to the well worn but useful parenting analogy - a mother takes her baby to the doctor for a vaccination. There is no hope, with that baby’s understanding being so limited by comparison to the mother’s, that it will possibly comprehend the necessity, let alone the loving care, that lies behind that mother’s decision to inflict the needle. All the baby understands is the pain. Is the mother then supposed to just not vaccinate it?
A moment’s slight pain is nothing compared to the suffering that might result from any of the infectious diseases against which infants are vaccinated - at least by those parents not stupid enough to reject vaccination as a vast conspiracy against the health of their offspring. And I know what you’re thinking - a mere lifetime of mortal pain is nothing compared to eternal suffering. But who decreed that eternal suffering would be our lot, if not God?

You could fix your analogy by making it such that all parents who inflicted the momentary pain of vaccination on their children were also wholly responsible for the whooping cough, measles, mumps, and sundry other horrible and potentially deadly illnesses that would otherwise afflict their offspring. But they’re not, are they? The vaccination is preventative medicine - if God was genuinely good, he would spare innocent children, at least, from horrible suffering - perhaps without even the need for minor suffering to prevent it.

Oh, but wait, you might say - it’s the free will of the parents whether they vaccinate or not! Great. Who decided that the ability of parents to make bad decisions was more valuable than the health of their children, anyway?
 
TRUSTFUL SURRENDER TO DIVINE PROVIDENCE
by St. Claude de la Colombiere

When God sends us trials

If you would be convinced that in all He allows and in all that happens to you God has no otherend in view but your real advantage and your eternal happiness, reflect a moment on all He hasdone for you; you are now suffering, but remember that the author of this suffering is He whochose to spend His life suffering to save you from everlasting suffering, whose angel is always atyour side guarding your body and soul by His order, who sacrifices Himself daily on the altar to expiate your sins and appease His Father’s anger, who comes lovingly to you in the Holy Eucharist and whose greatest pleasure is to be united to you. We must be very ungrateful to mistrust Him after He has shown such proofs of His love and to imagine that He can intend us harm. But, you will say, this blow is a cruel one, He strikes too hard. What have you to fear from a hand that was pierced and nailed to the cross for you? – The path I have to tread is full of thorns. If there is no other to reach heaven by, do you prefer to perish forever rather than to suffer for a time? Is it not the same path He trod before you out of love for you? Is there a thorn in it that He has not reddened with His own blood? – The chalice He offers you is a bitter one. But remember that it is your Redeemer who offers it. Loving you as He does, could He bring Himself
to treat you so severely if the need were not urgent, the gain not worthwhile? Can we dare to refuse the chalice He has prepared for us Himself?
Reflect well on this. It should be enough to make us accept and love whatever trials He intends we should suffer. Moreover it is the certain means of securing our happiness in this life quite apart from the next.

Peace
 
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