This raises questions over my faith so please help

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radias16

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I am a 22 Year Old Catholic and I have recently come accross 2 predicaments which questions my faith, my faith not to Christianity but my Catholic faith…

Firstly, the issue surrounding the abortion of the 9 year old girl in Brasil…

Lets say that the 9 year old was on a hospital bed dying and that it was a certain that the babies would die as they were 5 or 6 months premature, according to the Catholic church would abortion still not be allowed??

If the answer is yes then please answer me this, if both the mother and the unborn children are 100% going to die and this is a ceretainty, are you telling me that the church still sees this as the correct thing to do rather than let the mother have an abortion? Basically all parties would die… is this what the church would chose to be the right thing?

And the second thing is, why is it that preists are allowed to be removed from the Church if they are paedophiles yet bishops and cardinals cannot and retain their titles and are even allowed to live in grounds of the church alongside other members of the teaching faith?? How can a peadophile have the title of bishop?

There are many questions over why young people these days do not feel a connection with the church these days… this is why… we are not explained things. Look at the Bishop in Brazil, look at how he excommunicated all involved, whether you believe it was the rigjht thing or not, he did not see compasion and the way he said things and did not explain the reasons in a compansionate way further drives away those who are young and new to the religion…
 
The first issue (9 y/o rape victim) is a really tough one to intellectually accept as a Catholic. My only thoughts are that it is better to die in Christ than to live separated from Him. The evils done to a young child are never explainable to me, yet they could be a test of faith for those of us who struggle to find an answer as to why this could occur. This is one of those events, like a natural disaster or holocaust, that atheists love to use as an indication that there is no God. We, however, know that He is. I would suggest praying out your frustrations and finish that prayer with, “Not my will, but Thy will be done.”

Peace be with you
 
radias16 said:
I am a 22 Year Old Catholic and I have recently come accross 2 predicaments which questions my faith, my faith not to Christianity but my Catholic faith…

Firstly, the issue surrounding the abortion of the 9 year old girl in Brasil…

Lets say that the 9 year old was on a hospital bed dying and that it was a certain that the babies would die as they were 5 or 6 months premature, according to the Catholic church would abortion still not be allowed??
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Abortion is never allowed. In the case in Brazil, the girl was not now in any danger, they aborted the babies because of the heighted risk of serious complication when such a young mother is carrying twins. If a pregnant mother, no matter what her age, is dying or having other serious complications, the Church doesn’t say “sit back and let it happen”. The doctor should do what ever needs to be done to save the mother and, hopefully, the babies. But if by treating the mother, the babies die or are delivered too prematurely to live, that’s not against Church teaching. Any good doctor will do everything he/she can to save both the mother and the babies. Sometimes, it just means taking care of the mother until the pregnancy reaches a point where the babies can live. In the Brazil case, the girl was 4 month pregnant and not in danger yet. If she went to 6 or 7 month, the babies might have survived. Isn’t that ultimately more moral and compassionate than forcing a young girl to have an abortion, something that could make her ultimately unable to have future children and possible cause grave psycholgical damage to her already brutalized psyche?
And the second thing is, why is it that preists are allowed to be removed from the Church if they are paedophiles yet bishops and cardinals cannot and retain their titles and are even allowed to live in grounds of the church alongside other members of the teaching faith?? How can a peadophile have the title of bishop?
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If a person is a pedophile, he will be removed from ministry - period. It doesn’t matter if he is a priest or a bishop. BUT, in both cases, the person is still a priest or a bishop. Ordination, like Baptism, is a permanent sacrament. No sin, no matter how vile, can change that, nor can any authority in the Church. In some cases, usually with an elderly priest, the Church, out of charity, allows that person to live in a monestary or priest’s retirement home. Which, besides being the charitable thing to do, is IMHO better than turning them out into the general population unsupervised.

As far as I know, there are no Bishops who have been proven to have engaged in pedophilia so that last question seems to be rhetorical.
 
These are tough ethical questions, but I will try to answer them as I understand them. Keep in mind that I am a Catholic mother and teacher, not a theologian.

First of all, when we are in moral indecision, we always must first turn to God. What would Jesus advise us? The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and always looks to His example and teachings. Every rule and ritual of the Church has its basis in His own teachings and example. We remain faithful to what He has taught, and therefore do not have the authority to change what He has taught by His word and example.

On the question of abortion: I’m sure you would agree that He gives every human being a soul that is precious beyond compare. An infant’s soul and a child’s soul and an adult’s soul: these are all equally precious and all have the right to live because as Creator, only God has the right to choose who will live or die.

In the case of the 9-year-old: It is my understanding that if a mother will die giving birth and there is a decision to make regarding the unborn child (ie. the Mother will die if the child lives) the church feels that saving the mother’s life is justified. St. Gianna Berretta Molla had that choice, and though she could have had her own life saved, she heroically insisted that her unborn daughter be saved in her stead.

I don’t understand your other question: if both were going to die, would it be okay to perform an abortion? I think it would be the same as the previous situation. It would be permissible to continue to try to save the mother’s life.

The question regarding the bishop: As I understand it, when a bishop, or a priest makes their vows and receives the sacrament of ordination, their souls are changed, permanently. It is a spiritual change, a gift of God that cannot be undone, even if they are excommunicated, even if they say another mass, even if, in the next life, they go to hell. (which unfortunately can and does happen. Think about Judas, who was one of the original twelve called to the priesthood.) Maybe that is what is meant by “retaining their title”, I’m not sure.

I hope this helps even a little. I will pray for you on your spiritual journey. I know the voices of the world and the self are loud. We need to focus on our love for Jesus and his Mother, who will always lead us to understanding and truth. God bless, and remember God loves you.

Terrysa
 
Abortion is never allowed - period. If the child dies, the child dies to save the babies, and he/she will go to Heaven for dying so that another may live (“No greater love than this, that one die for his friends”).

As for pedophilia in the priesthood, let’s not be judges of the Catholic clergy. If you have an issue with the clergy, pray for them. That’s the best way we can help the deacons, priests, and bishops of the Church. We must be merciful, for God is merciful to us. The world hates mercy, but we are not worldly; we live in the world but we are not of the world. We are of Heaven, and as such, we must merciful just as our Heavenly Father is merciful. (“Be holy, just as your Father in Heaven is holy”).
 
radias16 said:
And the second thing is, why is it that preists are allowed to be removed from the Church if they are pedophiles yet bishops and cardinals cannot and retain their titles and are even allowed to live in grounds of the church alongside other members of the teaching faith?? How can a pedophile have the title of bishop?
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Can you cite the name of a single Bishop or Cardinal who has been convicted of pedophilia?:confused:
 
I’m sorry I didn’t see this before I posted another thread about it.

From my understanding of the abortion case in Brazil, the 9 year old girl was considered in danger if she was to deliver the babies naturally. So the Church suggested the girl have a C-section.

I have been arguing this topic for a few days now. People are so upset at the Catholic Church they are forgetting the stepfather is the actual perpetrator here.

The mother of the 9 year old girl is being exhonorated by some people I know as well.

My question is this. From what we’re taught in our Protecting God’s Children Workshops…pedophiles of this age (the man was in his 50’s I believe) usually have a history of this type of crime.

I would like to know if this man has had other victims of sexual abuse. And if he does, where is the responsibility of the little girl’s mother to find this sort of history out.

I understand some people can keep their pasts very well hidden. But if there is ANY chance this woman knew of this man’s nature, she is just as wrong for her daughter’s raping and becoming pregnant. If this does happen to have any truth, then she also is responsible for making her 9 year old daughter have the abortions.

The people I’m arguing with on this topic say that a 9 year old girl shouldn’t be having babies. I agree with this certainly.

But my point is this: The 9 year old girl is now a mother no matter what we say. It was her eggs that were fertilized and those were her two babies that were aborted. She is going to have emotional trauma (as all women do) from the abortions.

Yes it is an absolute shame this has happened to such an undeserving person. But who defends the lives of the undeserving, innocent babies that were aborted due to the “comfort” of the 9 year old’s mom?

I can’t help but think the abortions were to comfort other people and not necessarily to help the 9 year old girl. Please correct me if you disagree with this line of thought.

In the end, you do not correct an evil act with another evil act. The ends never justify the means. The Catholic Church is not the villian here. They are defending the laws and statutes God has set before us. ALL human life is to be valued, no matter what stage of development or progression it is in.

Such a sad story.
 
khruuton said:
I’m sorry I didn’t see this before I posted another thread about it.

From my understanding of the abortion case in Brazil, the 9 year old girl was considered in danger if she was to deliver the babies naturally. So the Church suggested the girl have a C-section.

I have been arguing this topic for a few days now. People are so upset at the Catholic Church they are forgetting the stepfather is the actual perpetrator here.

The mother of the 9 year old girl is being exhonorated by some people I know as well.

My question is this. From what we’re taught in our Protecting God’s Children Workshops…pedophiles of this age (the man was in his 50’s I believe) usually have a history of this type of crime.

I would like to know if this man has had other victims of sexual abuse. And if he does, where is the responsibility of the little girl’s mother to find this sort of history out.

I understand some people can keep their pasts very well hidden. But if there is ANY chance this woman knew of this man’s nature, she is just as wrong for her daughter’s raping and becoming pregnant. If this does happen to have any truth, then she also is responsible for making her 9 year old daughter have the abortions.

The people I’m arguing with on this topic say that a 9 year old girl shouldn’t be having babies. I agree with this certainly.

But my point is this: The 9 year old girl is now a mother no matter what we say. It was her eggs that were fertilized and those were her two babies that were aborted. She is going to have emotional trauma (as all women do) from the abortions.

Yes it is an absolute shame this has happened to such an undeserving person. But who defends the lives of the undeserving, innocent babies that were aborted due to the “comfort” of the 9 year old’s mom?

I can’t help but think the abortions were to comfort other people and not necessarily to help the 9 year old girl. Please correct me if you disagree with this line of thought.

In the end, you do not correct an evil act with another evil act. The ends never justify the means. The Catholic Church is not the villian here. They are defending the laws and statutes God has set before us. ALL human life is to be valued, no matter what stage of development or progression it is in.

Such a sad story.
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Maybe If we built a society that would help young girls take care of their babies and still allowed her the opportunity to become a productive and supporting citizen herself (OMG I’m talking about social welfare for people :eek:) then maybe other people wouldn’t think that the abortions were necessarily to help the 9 year old girl. :rolleyes:
 
Does anyone have an explanation to why the brazilian health minister wasn’t excommunicated for speaking out in favour of the abortion and against the Church?

/Z
 
Zendt said:
Does anyone have an explanation to why the brazilian health minister wasn’t excommunicated for speaking out in favour of the abortion and against the Church?

/Z
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Maybe he’s not Catholic? :confused:
 
Here is a question: If we are excommunicating the mother and doctors for performing this abortion, is it too much to ask that maybe the step father should also be excommunicated for raping a 9 year old girl or is this not a sin against God?
 
“Maybe he’s not Catholic?”

According to his statement, he is.
 
CatholicLeft said:
Maybe If we built a society that would help young girls take care of their babies and still allowed her the opportunity to become a productive and supporting citizen herself (OMG I’m talking about social welfare for people :eek:) then maybe other people wouldn’t think that the abortions were necessarily to help the 9 year old girl. :rolleyes:
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The case in Brazil had nothing to do with the economic situation of the girl or her ability to provide for the babies. This was based on her age, wanting to erase the visible consequeses of her abuse and the potential health risk of carrying twins.
 
Once again, the media has beaten this whole thing up without giving the full story.

I hadn’t heard the bit about the C-section before but I remember thinking, when I first heard about this story on another forum (who were giving the Church hell), that that’s what I would recommend to my daughter. I have a 10 yo and should such a thing have happened to her that’s what I would have thought was the only possible positive outcome. Now the poor child has to grieve over her dead babies along with everything else.

I wonder how many other (unreported) cases there are like this, though, where doctors are “sure” that the mother’s health would be in danger unless an abortion is performed and the mother (and grandmother in this case) feel forced into this decision by medical science.

There have been a lot of Catholics on a variety of forums who have said that while they are generally anti-abortion, in this case there was no choice. I just wonder how true that really was.
 
bradwill911 said:
The evils done to a young child are never explainable to me, yet they could be a test of faith for those of us who struggle to find an answer as to why this could occur.
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A bit of a selfish comment, that the suffering and abuse of children may be to strengthen the faith of observers?

If that is true, then God is a monster and I would want absolutely nothing to do with him or her.
 
phantasm said:
A bit of a selfish comment, that the suffering and abuse of children may be to strengthen the faith of observers?

If that is true, then God is a monster and I would want absolutely nothing to do with him or her.
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I am not going to engage in an argument here, but your comment proves my point without a shadow of a doubt, especially when you describe yourself as an atheist. When God allows suffering (“allows” not “causes”) you can turn towards him or away from him. It is clear that you have chosen a direction. It is my prayer that you will someday reconsider.

Thank you for your comments.

Peace
 
In the first question, the thought that *some *abortions can *sometimes *be justified came up. However, abortion is *never *a justified action, under any circumstances. The Catechism, in paragraph 2271 says: “Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law.” It goes on to cite the Didache - a work from the 2nd century - saying: “‘You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish’”. Remember that there are three things to consider when determining the morality of a choice: the object, the intention, and the circumstances. However, while some objects can be subjective (like when you’re choosing between two new jobs), others, like abortion, are intrinsically evil. ** When the object is evil, the relative intentions and circumstances never justify the action!
Code: 
 Now, that does not mean that the child in the womb should be treated with greater respect than the mother, but that they are both equals.  Consequently, the Priciple of Double Effect can be applied to some situations.  If, for example, the mother's uterus becomes cancerous, it would be morally allowable (though not emotionally so) to remove it, even though the child would die in the process.  In this situation, direct abortion was not sought as either an "...end or a means" and so was unfortunant, but not morally disordered.  The first effect (and the object) was the removal of the uterus in order to preserve a life; the death of the child is the unsought double effect.

 In regards to the second question, I agree with the others that Holy Orders can never be taken away once it is administered.  It's kind of like citizenship really.  In the United States, at least, you may do *terrible* things, but you (usually) don't get your citizenship taken away.  

 That's the best I can do, hope it helps!
 
radias16 said:
I am a 22 Year Old Catholic and I have recently come accross 2 predicaments which questions my faith, my faith not to Christianity but my Catholic faith…

Firstly, the issue surrounding the abortion of the 9 year old girl in Brasil…

Lets say that the 9 year old was on a hospital bed dying and that it was a certain that the babies would die as they were 5 or 6 months premature, according to the Catholic church would abortion still not be allowed??

If the answer is yes then please answer me this, if both the mother and the unborn children are 100% going to die and this is a ceretainty, are you telling me that the church still sees this as the correct thing to do rather than let the mother have an abortion? Basically all parties would die… is this what the church would chose to be the right thing?

And the second thing is, why is it that preists are allowed to be removed from the Church if they are paedophiles yet bishops and cardinals cannot and retain their titles and are even allowed to live in grounds of the church alongside other members of the teaching faith?? How can a peadophile have the title of bishop?

There are many questions over why young people these days do not feel a connection with the church these days… this is why… we are not explained things. Look at the Bishop in Brazil, look at how he excommunicated all involved, whether you believe it was the rigjht thing or not, he did not see compasion and the way he said things and did not explain the reasons in a compansionate way further drives away those who are young and new to the religion…
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Th situation in Brazil, that you have extended into a hypothetical one, is being covered at great length on CA in the News section, Catholic News. Here’s the link to that thread that opened on MAR 5 and is still open, 300+ posts, 21 pages.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=317550
 
thank you all for your explanations and i can see why bishops cannot lose their title… but think of how that is seen by other religions and atheists who are thinking of converting… but the main problemn is it that they retain their title but the fact that they live on the churches grounds… it sends the rwrong message…

and the abortion issue i can still not agree with it. At the end of the day if the situation was to arise that the mother would die unless she was to have an abortion and there was no other way to save the mother, then by Catholic teachings that would not be allowed… i cannot accept that im afraid and maybe i am wrong but hopefully God knows that iam just being honest and maybe its my ignorance that clouds my judgement
 
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