This tread is for all those non-Catholic Christians who claim that, “The Bible is rather silent when is comes the Mary”.

[peary]

A couple of reasons:
1- putting your trust in a dead person that you have no way of knowing is can hear you or do anything about your requests.
2- it takes away a person’ dependence on Christ alone. We see this in the many devotions to Mary and the saints.
3- The scriptures never speak of praying to dead saints ever.
3- all proper prayers in the scriptures are always directed to God directly.

**Your reasoning is faulty:

1. People never die.
2. Devotion to Mary and the saints are Christ-centered and always have been.
3. Scripture instructs us to pray for one another, to ask for prayers, to petition, and for supplication.
4. Saints are not ‘dead’. They are alive in Heaven with God.

Therefore, to ask the saints in Heaven to pray for us in the perseverence of life is scriptural.**

 

[Gara3987]

Allow me to specify what is meant by that.

It does NOT mean that Mary is not spoken of in the Bible.
It DOES mean that the piedestal that the Roman church (and the Eastern church for that matter) puts her on does not have scriptural support.

And, allow me also to direct y’alls attention to Matt 12:46-50

*Matth. 46: 50

46* As he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him. *

47* And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee. *

48* But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?

49 And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren. *

50* For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

“Who is my mother?”… This was not spoken by way of slighting his mother, but to show that we are never to suffer ourselves to be taken from the service of God, by any inordinate affection to our earthly parents: and that which our Lord chiefly regarded in his mother, was her doing the will of his Father in heaven. It may also further allude to the reprobation of the Jews, his carnal kindred, and the election of the Gentiles.

You do understand that there are literal and mystical meanings in the bible, the literal meanings (some) are easy to understand, but others are easy to misinterpret as well.

For instance look at Proverbs 8: 22-31:

Verse 22. “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.”

1. “I was set up from eternity and of old, before the earth was made.”
2. “The depths were not as yet and I was already conceived: neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out.”
3. “The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth.”
4. “He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the earth.”
5. “When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths.”
6. “When he established the sky above and poised the fountains of waters.”
7. “When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth.”
8. “I was with Him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before Him at all times.”
9. “Playing in the world: and my delights were to be with the children of men.”

Literal Sense
It is understood first, that it treats of the ideas or decrees, which were in the Divine Mind before the Creation of the world; and that, in its literal sense, it speaks of the Person of the Incarnate Word and of his most holy Mother, while in its mystical sense it refers to the holy angels and prophets. For before decreeing or forming the ideals of the rest of the material creation, He formed and decreed their prototype, the most sacred humanity of Christ and of his purest Mother, and this is indicated by the first words.

Mystical Sense (Verse 22 - 23 at least)
“The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways.” In God there are no ways, and his Divinity does not need them: but He made use of them, in order, that by them we may know Him and that all of us creatures, who are capable of knowing Him, may tend toward Him. In this beginning, before He formed any other ideal in his mind, because He desired to create paths and open ways in his mind for the communication of the Divinity, He decreed, as a beginning, the formation of the humanity of the Word, who was to be the highway, by which the other creatures might come to the Father (Joan. 14, 6). Joined with this decree was that of his most holy Mother, through whom his Divinity was to enter into the world, becoming man and being born from Her as God and man; therefore it is said: “God possessed me” since both were possessed by his Majesty: for as to his Divinity, He was the possession, the property, and the treasure of the Father without possibility of separation, because Father and Son are One, of the same substance and Divinity with the Holy Ghost; and also as to his humanity, the Father possessed the Son; because He himself knew and decreed the plenitude of grace and glory, which He was to bestow upon it at the moment of its creation and its hypostatical union. Moreover, as this decree and possession was to be brought about by the mediation of the Mother, who was to conceive and bring forth the Word (since He did not decide to create it out of nothing, nor form his soul and body out of any other material), it followed that He possessed Her, who was to give Him the human form. Thus He possessed and claimed Her as his own in the same instant, providing with solicitude, that in the order of grace neither the human race nor any other, should have at any time a right or a part in Her. He alone retained the full right in Her as his portion, and so much his portion as the dignity of Mother required. She alone was to call Him Son, and She alone was to be called Mother, a Mother worthy of having an incarnate God for a Son. Now as all this far surpassed in dignity the whole creation, so did it also take the precedence in the mind of the supreme Creator.

“Before He made anything from the beginning, I was set up from eternity and of old.” We, in our present state, conceive this eternity of God as an interminable time. What were the things “of old,” since none had been created? It is clear that the three Persons are here spoken of, namely, that She was foreseen from the eternal ages of the Divinity, by the Beings, which alone are ancient, namely, the indivisible Trinity (since all the rest, having a beginning, are recent), that She was foreseen when only the ancient Uncreated was, and before any ideals of the future creation were formed. Between these two extremes intervened the ideal of the hypostatic union which was to be verified ad extra through the intervention of the most holy Mary. Both were ordained together, immediately next to God and before any other creature, and it was the most wonderful decree ever passed or ever to be passed. The first and most admirable image in the mind of God, next to the eternal generation, was that of Christ and next to it, that of his Mother.

from Ven. Mary of Agreda
​

 

[Huguenot]

Do you think its a sin to pray to her or the saints?

Yes …

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3470612]
Originally Posted by justasking4
A couple of reasons:
1- putting your trust in a dead person that you have no way of knowing is can hear you or do anything about your requests.

guanophore
Asking other Christians for prayer is not a sin, and is clearly biblical.

You are half right and half wrong. it is right to ask for a living Christian in this world to pray for you but not a dead Christian who has died and gone to be with Christ. You should know full well the scritpures never exhorted nor say a Christian is to pray to some Christian has died.

guanophore
Jesus is very clear in scripture that those who believe in Him NEVER DIE. It is puzzling to me how you think that the words of Jesus are false.

There not. Where does Jesus say in this passage or any passage that those who have died believing in Him can hear your prayers?

guanophore
John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

The saints in heaven can hear whatever God wants them to hear.

You have no such exhortation or teaching by an apostle for this assertion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
2- it takes away a person’ dependence on Christ alone. We see this in the many devotions to Mary and the saints.

guanophore
This is a GREAT thing! The notion of “Jesus and me alone” is contrary to all the teachings of Jesus. We are told to bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. We are to love one another, not “Jesus alone”. This is a modern innovation that is found nowhere in the Apostolic teachings.

All of these things apply to believers in this world. Read the context for these passages. Do you see anything in them about needing assistance from those who have died in this world ?

Jesus founded a Church, and gave explicit instructions on how the members of it are to relate to one another. Paul writes about how all the members of the body need one another.

Paul never exhorts any Christian to ever depend on those who have fallen asleep in Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
3- The scriptures never speak of praying to dead saints ever.

guanophore
Indeed not. Scripture shows us that God is the God of living, not the dead, an that those who are in Christ are alive.

Again ye to err not knowing the Scriptures. It is one thing to be alive in the presence of God when we die and another to be able to communicate with those who have died.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
3- all proper prayers in the scriptures are always directed to God directly.

guanophore
So, the prayers that are directed to other believers are “improper”?

It depends on what you mean. If you mean by this you are praying for someone here then that would proper.

Is it “improper” for Paul to ask for the intercession of the Saints?

No. Paul meant those who were alive in this world.

 

[justasking4]

peary;3470626]**Your reasoning is faulty:

1. People never die. **
   True in a sense. They are dead to this world though and no longer have a part in it.

2. Devotion to Mary and the saints are Christ-centered and always have been.

The scriptures never teach such a thing. There is not one verse that can be used in context to say that praying to Mary and the dead in Christ are to be prayed to. Not one.

1. Scripture instructs us to pray for one another, to ask for prayers, to petition, and for supplication.

True for those in this world only.

1. Saints are not ‘dead’. They are alive in Heaven with God.

That does not mean they can hear you though.

Therefore, to ask the saints in Heaven to pray for us in the perseverence of life is scriptural.

This sounds reasonable but unscriptural. Even the catholic church has admitted it really doesn’t know who is in heaven except Mary nor do they know if they are in purgatory and can hear you from that state or place.

 

[Della]

You are half right and half wrong. it is right to ask for a living Christian in this world to pray for you but not a dead Christian who has died and gone to be with Christ. You should know full well the scritpures never exhorted nor say a Christian is to pray to some Christian has died.

There is not one passage of Scripture that tells us we cannot ask for the intercession of those we know are in heaven. Also, there are passages that talk about the saints in heaven praying for those on earth. It is not unreasonable to teach, based on that alone (although the Church does not base it’s teaching on the Bible alone) that the saints can and do pray for us.

Where does Jesus say in this passage or any passage that those who have died believing in Him can hear your prayers?

Jesus himself talked to two “dead” people during his Transfiguration. They seemed to understand him quite well and to be “up” on what was happening on earth.

You have no such exhortation or teaching by an apostle for this assertion.

The Apostles never fully outlined the nature of Christ or the Trinity or other matters, either, in the NT. That’s not a proof for or against anything.

2- it takes away a person’ dependence on Christ alone. We see this in the many devotions to Mary and the saints.

Hardly. Does prayer for one another here on earth do that? Of course not. Why should it do it if we ask for the intercession of those already in heaven?

Again ye to err not knowing the Scriptures. It is one thing to be alive in the presence of God when we die and another to be able to communicate with those who have died.

We know Scripture just as well, if not better in some cases, as you do. We simply do not subscribe to your interpretation. The Bible is the Catholic Church’s holy book, not yours to decide matters of faith and morals.

No. Paul meant those who were alive in this world.

Once again, this is your interpretation not what Paul was teaching.

Even the catholic church has admitted it really doesn’t know who is in heaven except Mary nor do they know if they are in purgatory and can hear you from that state or place.

Sorry, you are wrong about this. All those who have been listed in the Canon of Saints have been declared by the Church to be in heaven and able to hear and respond to our prayers.

This topic is about Mary. And since you agree that Mary is in heaven, why can she not hear our prayers and intercede for us? You have not given us one good reason why she and the saints cannot except your own faulty/limited interpretation of the Church’s holy book, the Bible.

You should read the Early Church Fathers on this and other such topics. They sat at the feet of the Apostles and heard the teachings of Christ from their own lips. They taught the same things the Catholic Church teaches today.

 

[justasking4]

Della;3477931]
Originally Posted by justasking4
You are half right and half wrong. it is right to ask for a living Christian in this world to pray for you but not a dead Christian who has died and gone to be with Christ. You should know full well the scritpures never exhorted nor say a Christian is to pray to some Christian has died.

Della
There is not one passage of Scripture that tells us we cannot ask for the intercession of those we know are in heaven.

The problem is that you are making a positive claim that must be supported with facts. There are no such facts in scripture that shows or teaches us to pray to the dead.

Della
Also, there are passages that talk about the saints in heaven praying for those on earth.

If you are referring to the passages in Revelations then you don’t have that kind of thing going on here either.

Della
It is not unreasonable to teach, based on that alone (although the Church does not base it’s teaching on the Bible alone) that the saints can and do pray for us.

I agree it may sound reasonable but that does not mean its true either. The fact of the matter is that the only source we have about the afterlife is found only in the written scriptures and these Scriptures do not teach such a doctrine or practice. What your church does is to speculate since there are no facts from Scripture i.e. revelation to support this.

Quote:justasking4
Where does Jesus say in this passage or any passage that those who have died believing in Him can hear your prayers?

Della
Jesus himself talked to two “dead” people during his Transfiguration. They seemed to understand him quite well and to be “up” on what was happening on earth.

The problem with this is that this was not a prayer. Jesus was not praying to these 2 prophets. Secondly, this incident is never used in the NT as a basis for prayer either.

Quote:justasking4
You have no such exhortation or teaching by an apostle for this assertion.

Della
The Apostles never fully outlined the nature of Christ or the Trinity or other matters, either, in the NT. That’s not a proof for or against anything.

If you are going to make a claim about something then you must have the support for the claim. To claim that a person can pray to dead saints is something the scriptures exhort us to do. You never see the NT church practicing this kind of thing. They didn’t need to since they understood that all their needs would be met directly by Christ Himself. He alone is our Great High Priest Who intercedes before the Father for us. Not Mary nor dead saints but Jesus alone fulfills this role in our behalf.

Quote:justasking4
2- it takes away a person’ dependence on Christ alone. We see this in the many devotions to Mary and the saints.
Della
Hardly. Does prayer for one another here on earth do that?

No. Asking for prayer from another Christian is biblical. Its not biblical to ask for help from a person who has died and has no more to do with this world.

Of course not. Why should it do it if we ask for the intercession of those already in heaven?

Even if they are in heaven (which you have no way of knowing) does not mean they can hear you. That’s one of the major problems with this doctrine.

Quote:justasking4
Again ye to err not knowing the Scriptures. It is one thing to be alive in the presence of God when we die and another to be able to communicate with those who have died.

Della
We know Scripture just as well, if not better in some cases, as you do. We simply do not subscribe to your interpretation. The Bible is the Catholic Church’s holy book, not yours to decide matters of faith and morals.

Quote:justasking4
No. Paul meant those who were alive in this world.
Della
Once again, this is your interpretation not what Paul was teaching.

Then please show me from any of his writings and in context that he is referring to those who have died that we are to pray to?

Quote:justasking4
Even the catholic church has admitted it really doesn’t know who is in heaven except Mary nor do they know if they are in purgatory and can hear you from that state or place.

Della
Sorry, you are wrong about this. All those who have been listed in the Canon of Saints have been declared by the Church to be in heaven and able to hear and respond to our prayers.

How could they know with any certainty about this? How do they know they are not being decieved?

Della
This topic is about Mary. And since you agree that Mary is in heaven, why can she not hear our prayers and intercede for us?

2 reasons at least.
1- Scripture never ever mentions Mary as being some kind of mediator in heaven for Christians.

2- Jesus alone is the One we are exhorted to pray to. We are to pray in His name.

You have not given us one good reason why she and the saints cannot except your own faulty/limited interpretation of the Church’s holy book, the Bible.

I have given you many excellent biblical reasons from the Scriptures themselves and that are in line with context.

You should read the Early Church Fathers on this and other such topics. They sat at the feet of the Apostles and heard the teachings of Christ from their own lips. They taught the same things the Catholic Church teaches today.

Before you go to the fathers go first to the scriptures for understanding and encouragement. The fathers can be helpful at times and others not. Most of the fathers did not know the apostles.

 

[Della]

The problem is that you are making a positive claim that must be supported with facts. There are no such facts in scripture that shows or teaches us to pray to the dead.

 

[justasking4]

Della;3479817

justasking4
The problem is that you are making a positive claim that must be supported with facts. There are no such facts in scripture that shows or teaches us to pray to the dead.

Della
No. No “facts” are needed, just confidence in the teachings of the Apostles handed down to us by the bishops they instituted to take their place.

Without facts you have no way to check if things are handed down correctly you leave yourself open to error. You can claim you have confidence but you cannot claim to know if its true.

Della
It is Jesus himself who promised that the Holy Spirit would lead his Church into all truth.

If you look at the passage for this in John 16:13 you find that Jesus is speaking to His disciples and not the church. The church was not in existence at this time.

Della
Prayers to the saints is one of those truths that is not explicitly found in the Bible, just as other teachings are not explicitly taught, either.

Good point. This demonstrates that these doctrines and practices were not of the Christ or the apostles either.

The Bible is not an organized book of theology. It is the writings of the Apostles, plus Luke and Mark. It was never meant to be used as a “proof text” for anything.

If i understand you correctly then it would also follow that you cannot claim that the catholic church is the church Jesus established since catholic try to use the Bible as a proof text for this.

Quote:justasking4
If you are referring to the passages in Revelations then you don’t have that kind of thing going on here either.
Della
What is going on in Revelation is saints in heaven praying for those still on earth. I think that qualifies.

Can you give me the chapter and verse for this?

Quote:justasking4
I agree it may sound reasonable but that does not mean its true either. The fact of the matter is that the only source we have about the afterlife is found only in the written scriptures and these Scriptures do not teach such a doctrine or practice. What your church does is to speculate since there are no facts from Scripture i.e. revelation to support this.

Della
Sorry, but this is not the case. The Bible is not and never was intended to be the sole rule of faith. That idea was entirely foreign to the Church before the 16th century when the “reformers” needed to say it was in order to break with the teachings of the Church Christ founded.

Have you studiied the church fathers thoroughly? There are a number of them that would disagree with you.

 

[guanophore]

The problem is that you are making a positive claim that must be supported with facts.

Actually, this is not entirely true. Jesus said “I and the Father are One”. This is a positive claim, but it comes from Divine Revelation, not so much “facts”.

There are no such facts in scripture that shows or teaches us to pray to the dead.

You are right. Scripture shows that those who in Christ have eternal life, and will never die! Jesus said to those who asserted (as you do) that they are dead “you are quite wrong”. “He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching. " Matt 22:32-33

Accept that those in Christ are alive forevermore, ja4, and be astonished!

If you are referring to the passage in Revelations then you don’t have that kind of thing going on here either.

Really? Who do you think is making the “prayers of the saints” or do you think they are not really “prayers of the saints”?

The fact of the matter is that the only source we have about the afterlife is found only in the written scriptures and these Scriptures do not teach such a doctrine or practice. What your church does is to speculate since there are no facts from Scripture i.e. revelation to support this.

Fortunately, none of this is true.

The problem with this is that this was not a prayer. Jesus was not praying to these 2 prophets. Secondly, this incident is never used in the NT as a basis for prayer either.

Ok, but if they are “dead” as you continually assert, how is it they were having a conversation?

To claim that a person can pray to dead saints is something the scriptures exhort us to do. You never see the NT church practicing this kind of thing. They didn’t need to since they understood that all their needs would be met directly by Christ Himself. He alone is our Great High Priest Who intercedes before the Father for us. Not Mary nor dead saints but Jesus alone fulfills this role in our behalf.

We do see the Church practicing this, ja4, from the very beginning until the present day. You can’t see this because it is part of Sacred Tradition, and is not accessible to you. Jesus never taught this modern innovation of “Jesus alone” theology. He showed the Apostles how He intended to graft them into the fullness of His ministry, including that of mediation and intercession.

No. Asking for prayer from another Christian is biblical. Its not biblical to ask for help from a person who has died and has no more to do with this world.

Where in scripture does it say that a person who has passed on “has no more to do with this world”? How do you explain that Samuel knew what was going on here, and talked to Saul about it?

Even if they are in heaven (which you have no way of knowing) does not mean they can hear you. That’s one of the major problems with this doctrine.

It is not a problem for us, since we know that the saints can hear whatever God wants them to hear.

Then please show me from any of his writings and in context that he is referring to those who have died that we are to pray to?

All intercessions are only asked of persons who are alive in Christ.

Without facts you have no way to check if things are handed down correctly you leave yourself open to error. You can claim you have confidence but you cannot claim to know if its true.

You are making the assumption that, because you don’t have “facts” that Catholics don’t either. This is not the case, since we have Sacred Tradition. We know that we are not in error because we Trust God to do as He promised.

If you look at the passage for this in John 16:13 you find that Jesus is speaking to His disciples and not the church. The church was not in existence at this time.

Since the Church is built on them as the foundation, how is this relevant? Do you think that what He said became invalid later?

Good point. This demonstrates that these doctrines and practices were not of the Christ or the apostles either.

It does not. Scripture clearly shows Jesus conversing with Elijah and Moses. Are you going to accuse HIm of “speaking to the dead”?

If i understand you correctly then it would also follow that you cannot claim that the catholic church is the church Jesus established since catholic try to use the Bible as a proof text for this.

No, Catholics don’t need to use the Bible as “proof text”. Catholics know that the NT is the product of Sacred Tradition, and that nothing in it contradicts the Teachings of Jesus that were given to the Apostles.

Can you give me the chapter and verse for this?

" And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." Rev 8:2-4

Have you studiied the church fathers thoroughly? There are a number of them that would disagree with you.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3484483]
Originally Posted by justasking4
The problem is that you are making a positive claim that must be supported with facts.

guanophore
Actually, this is not entirely true. Jesus said “I and the Father are One”. This is a positive claim, but it comes from Divine Revelation, not so much “facts”.

This would be a fact of Scripture which does have its source in Divine Revelation. No problem here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
There are no such facts in scripture that shows or teaches us to pray to the dead.

guanophore
You are right. Scripture shows that those who in Christ have eternal life, and will never die! Jesus said to those who asserted (as you do) that they are dead “you are quite wrong”. “He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching. " Matt 22:32-33

Accept that those in Christ are alive forevermore, ja4, and be astonished!

Go back and read this passage again and see where Jesus is saying you can also pray to these souls. If you see please show me the verse…

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3484483]
Originally Posted by justasking4
The problem with this is that this was not a prayer. Jesus was not praying to these 2 prophets. Secondly, this incident is never used in the NT as a basis for prayer either.

guanophore
Ok, but if they are “dead” as you continually assert, how is it they were having a conversation?

They had died in the past. Correct?
Now we see them conversing with Jesus (we don’t know what they are talking about).
As i said previously this incident is never used as a “prayer model” in the Scriptures. Its never mentioned in that context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
To claim that a person can pray to dead saints is something the scriptures exhort us to do. You never see the NT church practicing this kind of thing. They didn’t need to since they understood that all their needs would be met directly by Christ Himself. He alone is our Great High Priest Who intercedes before the Father for us. Not Mary nor dead saints but Jesus alone fulfills this role in our behalf.

guanophore
We do see the Church practicing this, ja4, from the very beginning until the present day.

Since the beginning of the church is found in the NT where do we see any exhortation to pray to dead saints? Where do we see any exhortation to pray to Stephen or James since they are killed early on?

guanophore
You can’t see this because it is part of Sacred Tradition, and is not accessible to you.

Its not accessible to you either. You have failed miserably to demonstrate that its real to begin with.

Jesus never taught this modern innovation of “Jesus alone” theology.

Do we need more than Jesus to be saved? To be forgiven?

He showed the Apostles how He intended to graft them into the fullness of His ministry, including that of mediation and intercession.

Not with praying to the dead saints. He never taught that.

 

[peary]

They had died in the past. Correct?
Now we see them conversing with Jesus (we don’t know what they are talking about).
As i said previously this incident is never used as a “prayer model” in the Scriptures. Its never mentioned in that context.

Since the beginning of the church is found in the NT where do we see any exhortation to pray to dead saints? Where do we see any exhortation to pray to Stephen or James since they are killed early on?

Its not accessible to you either. You have failed miserably to demonstrate that its real to begin with.

Do we need more than Jesus to be saved? To be forgiven?

Not with praying to the dead saints. He never taught that.

It’s becoming obvious that justasking4(it) has rather a smart-aleck attitude lately.

 

[guanophore]

Go back and read this passage again and see where Jesus is saying you can also pray to these souls. If you see please show me the verse…

Jesus did not restrict who we could ask for prayers. He made it clear that all who are in Him have eternal life, and he demonstrated that it is possible to have conversation with the saints by doing it Himself. He also never corrected the early church for this practice, which continues today.

They had died in the past. Correct?
Now we see them conversing with Jesus (we don’t know what they are talking about).

Well, I am not so sure about Elijah. The scriptures say that he was taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot. Sounds more like Assumption to me!

We most certainly DO know what they are talking about:

Luke 9:29-31
30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli’jah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem."

How is it these saints knew about events on earth?

As i said previously this incident is never used as a “prayer model” in the Scriptures. Its never mentioned in that context.

The prayer model is not accessible to you, ja4, because that has come to us through Sacred Tradition. However, what is clear in this passage is that 1) the saints of God are alive 2) it is possible for those in the body to interact with those not in the body 3) the saints are aware of what is going on here.

Since the beginning of the church is found in the NT where do we see any exhortation to pray to dead saints? Where do we see any exhortation to pray to Stephen or James since they are killed early on?

Actually, there is very little of the beginning of the church in the NT. We find some references to practices, but we find very little in terms of liturgies, prayers, hymns, creeds and practices (rites).

We do see that the saints are encouraged to pray for one another, and we see that death cannot separate the believers from the love of God.

Its not accessible to you either. You have failed miserably to demonstrate that its real to begin with.

Fortunately that was not a goal of mine, so failing in that is not troublesome.

To those who have, more will be given, and to those who have not…

Do we need more than Jesus to be saved? To be forgiven?

I don’t think He did anything that was not necessary, and since He chose to build a Church, and create a Body, then I would say “yes”. We need to learn all of HIs commandments, and cannot do that without a Church.

Not with praying to the dead saints. He never taught that.

We see it differently! Catholics know that the saints are alive. He taught that nothing can separate us from His love.

 

[Jimmy_B]

******Mary ********the Mother of God - in the Bible **(1 of 4)

**A look at the Mary of the Bible with *references to Mary highlighted in **Red.

Genesis 3:15
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

Revelation 12
1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child… …(4) Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. 6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.
10 Anyone destined for captivity goes into captivity. Anyone destined to be slain by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Such is the faithful endurance of the holy ones.
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Revelation
(NAB) 12)

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. (Isaiah (NAB) 7)

Matthew 1
18 Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit. 19 Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly. 20 Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. 21 She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means “God is with us.” 24 When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home.25 He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus. (Matthew 1:18-25 (NAB) 1)

Continued on next post –

 

[Jimmy_B]

**Mary **the Mother of God - in the Bible (2 of 4)

Luke 1
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary.28 And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”29 But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.32 He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”34 But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” 35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power you have found favor with God. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.36 And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren; 37 for nothing will be impossible for God.”38 Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her. (Luke 1:27 (NAB) 1)

Luke 1
**39 During those days **Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah,40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth.41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,42 cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.43 And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.45 Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.” (Luke 1:30-45 (NAB) 1)

Luke 1** (Song of **Mary)
**46 And **Mary said: “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47 my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
**48 For he has looked upon his **handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
**49 The Mighty One has done great things for **me, and holy is his name.
50 His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.
51 He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.
52 He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly.
53 The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty.
54 He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy,
55 according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”
**56 **Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home. (Luke 1:46-56 (NAB) 1)

Continued on next post –

 

[Jimmy_B]

**Mary **the Mother of God - in the Bible (3 of 4)

Luke 2
**5 to be enrolled with **Mary, his betrothed, who was with child.6 While they were there, the time came for her to have her child,7 and she gave birth to her firstborn son. She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
(Luke 2:5-7 (NAB) 2)

Luke 2
**16 So they went in haste and found **Mary and Joseph, and the infant lying in the manger.17 When they saw this, they made known the message that had been told them about this child.18 All who heard it were amazed by what had been told them by the shepherds.19 And Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart.20 Then the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, just as it had been told to them. (Luke 2:16-20 (NAB) 2)

Luke 2
**34 and Simeon blessed them and said to **Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted35 (and you yourself a sword will pierce) so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” (Luke 2:34,35(NAB) 2)

Luke 2
**48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his **mother said to him, “Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety.”49 And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” 50 But they did not understand what he said to them.
51 He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.

John 2
**1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the **mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding.3 When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”4 (And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”
**11 Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him. 12 After this, he and his **mother, (his) brothers, and his disciples went down to Capernaum and stayed there only a few days.

Mark 6
**3 Is he not the carpenter, the son of **Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his native place and among his own kin and in his own house.” 5 So he was not able to perform any mighty deed there, apart from curing a few sick people by laying his hands on them. (Mark 6:3-5 (NAB) 6)

 

[Jimmy_B]

**Mary **the Mother of God - in the Bible (4of 4)

Matthew 13

55 Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?56 Are not his sisters all with us? Where did this man get all this?”57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his native place and in his own house.”58 And he did not work many mighty deeds there because of their lack of faith. (Matthew 13:55-58 (NAB) 13)

Matthew 1
**16 Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of **Mary. Of her was born Jesus who is called the Messiah.

17 Thus the total number of generations from Abraham to David is fourteen generations; from David to the Babylonian exile, fourteen generations; from the Babylonian exile to the Messiah, fourteen generations. (Matthew (NAB) 1)

Matthew 2
**11 and on entering the house they saw the child with **Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage. Then they opened their treasures and offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. 12 And having been warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed for their country by another way. (Matthew 2:11,12 (NAB) 2)

John 19
25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. 26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

Acts 112 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day’s journey away; 13 and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. 14 All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
**13 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. **

 

[Jimmy_B]

:knight1: What Do You Think?:knight1: %between%

 

[mathematician]

What Do You Think?:

I think there is some reason to suppose that Jesus might have had a mother called Mary, but I can’t say that I learned an awful lot about her from any of the above.