This tread is for all those non-Catholic Christians who claim that, “The Bible is rather silent when is comes the Mary”.

[justasking4]

Tomster;3417041]As to “dead saints”, consider this. Although it will not bring your theories into line with your practices, to illustrate the biblical basis of ours, I refer you to Holy Scripture. Moses and Elias had long been dead when they appreared at the Transfiguration of our Lord, but as they spoke with Him, they gave every appearance of being alive (Matthew 17:2-3).

Was Jesus praying to these 2 when they appeared to Him? Do the apostles in their writings i.e. letters use this incident as an exhortation for prayer?

Christ promised the Good Thief that “this day,” he would be with Him in paradise (Luke 23:43). He preached to the dead after His death and before His Resurrection (1 Peter 4:6). St. Paul writes of the faith and suffering of the “ancients” (Hebrews 11:2-40). These dead saints constitute “a cloud of witnesses over our head” (Hebrews 12:1). Although the wicked Dives had died and was in hell, and Lazarus was in heaven, they figured in a drama related by our Lord. Along with Abraham, they had major parts which they performed in a lively manner, if our Lord is to believed (Luke 16:19-31). Why not believe Him?

I would agree that there is some kind of existence after death but we don’t know the nature of it. What you are assuming here is that the dead can hear your prayers which goes far beyond the what the Scriptures say.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

**…**Your Thoughts?

A couple of other passages:​

• Mar 3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
  Mar 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
  Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
  Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
  Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
  [Matt 12:46-50; Luke 8:19-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt 12:46-50; Luke 8:19-21&version=49)
• …Luke 8.16 "Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed; but he puts it on a lampstand, so that those who come in may see the light.
• 17 "For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
• 18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”
• 19(O) And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd.
• 20 And it was reported to Him, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You.”
• 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these (P)who hear the word of God and do it.” …
• …Luk 11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth [it] swept and garnished.
  Luk 11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh [to him] seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first.
  Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
  Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
  Luk 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
  Luk 11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation…
• Luk 14:25 …And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
  Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
  Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple…
• John 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
  Jhn 2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
  Jhn 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
  Jhn 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
  Jhn 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do [it].
  Jhn 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
  Jhn 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim…
  A fully Biblical outline of the BVM cannot afford to ignore the “hard sayings” that refer to Mary in some way. Otherwise it’s going to be severely lop-sided. The Bible contains the hard sayings; they are part of the total Biblical witness to Christ.

 

[onenow1]

Because those verses originally came from the jews and not from the catholics.

Hi,
Indeed and that is one of the reasons the Jews do not accept Jesus.

PeaceOneNow1

 

[Della]

As to “dead saints”, consider this. Although it will not bring your theories into line with your practices, to illustrate the biblical basis of ours, I refer you to Holy Scripture. Moses and Elias had long been dead when they appreared at the Transfiguration of our Lord, but as they spoke with Him, they gave every appearance of being alive (Matthew 17:2-3). Christ promised the Good Thief that “this day,” he would be with Him in paradise (Luke 23:43). He preached to the dead after His death and before His Resurrection (1 Peter 4:6). St. Paul writes of the faith and suffering of the “ancients” (Hebrews 11:2-40). These dead saints constitute “a cloud of witnesses over our head” (Hebrews 12:1). Although the wicked Dives had died and was in hell, and Lazarus was in heaven, they figured in a drama related by our Lord. Along with Abraham, they had major parts which they performed in a lively manner, if our Lord is to believed (Luke 16:19-31). Why not believe Him?

cf. Wisdom 3:1-10

I just wanted to add the synoptic Gospels verses from Jesus’ own mouth on the subject of whether or not the dead are dead or alive:

Matt.22:32 `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Mark.12:27 “He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

Luke.20:38 “Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him.”

For justasking4, these words Jesus spoke in answer to those who claimed there is no resurrection of the dead because the dead are dead. Jesus very clearly told us otherwise.

As to praying to “dead friends”, I don’t pray to dead friends, either. I pray for them–for the repose of their souls. But, I do pray to (for the intercession of) the Saints and Angels because the Church Christ founded has taught us to think of all God’s higher creatures as one with him in love. We are not “Lone Rangers” for Christ, but part of a much larger whole, founded in Christ.

 

[mathematician]

This tread is for all those non-Catholic Christians who claim that, “The Bible is rather silent when is comes the Mary”.

****Mary ******the Mother of God - in the Bible **(1 of 4)

---

---

A look at the Mary of the Bible with *references to Mary highlighted in Red.

Genesis 3:15
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

Revelation 12
1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child… …(4) Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. 6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.
10 Anyone destined for captivity goes into captivity. Anyone destined to be slain by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Such is the faithful endurance of the holy ones.
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Revelation
(NAB) 12)

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. (Isaiah (NAB) 7)

Matthew 1
18 Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit. 19 Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly. 20 Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. 21 She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means “God is with us.” 24 When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home.25 He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus. (Matthew 1:18-25 (NAB) 1)

Continued on next post –

It is rather silent when it comes to Mary. Everything the Bible relates about her could be fitted onto one side of a sheet of A4 with plenty of room to spare.

That’s hardly surprising given that its primary focus of interest is on Jesus, and almost everything we know about him comes from four short books, with Matthew practically being a second edition of Mark.

 

[Lee44]

Jimmy B sez he is a Roman Catholic, well Jimmy I got a song for ya turn up your speakers now

youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8

 

[Della]

It is rather silent when it comes to Mary. Everything the Bible relates about her could be fitted onto one side of a sheet of A4 with plenty of room to spare.

That’s hardly surprising given that its primary focus of interest is on Jesus, and almost everything we know about him comes from four short books, with Matthew practically being a second edition of Mark.

Of course Catholics do not claim that Mary is the center of attention of the faith. It is her detractors that make that claim. All Catholics are saying is that the Bible isn’t “silent” about Mary, but has many references, both implicit and explicit (using the same typology Protestants employ) that show otherwise. That’s it, plain and simple.

 

[Tomster]

Was Jesus praying to these 2 when they appeared to Him? Do the apostles in their writings i.e. letters use this incident as an exhortation for prayer?

I would agree that there is some kind of existence after death but we don’t know the nature of it. What you are assuming here is that the dead can hear your prayers which goes far beyond the what the Scriptures say.

Please review post #19 carefully.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Was Jesus praying to these 2 when they appeared to Him? Do the apostles in their writings i.e. letters use this incident as an exhortation for prayer?

I would agree that there is some kind of existence after death but we don’t know the nature of it. What you are assuming here is that the dead can hear your prayers which goes far beyond the what the Scriptures say.

Please review post #19 carefully.

I did and it does not answer my questions.

 

[Tomster]

I did and it does not answer my questions.

It is really strange that you should set aside the great body of tesimony, both in Scripture and Tradition, for Purgatory and prayers for the dead. But doctrine is so interwoven with doctrine in the consistent Gospel of Jesus Christ, that the denial of one central dogma logically means the denial of many others. Luther’s false theory of justification by faith alone led him to deny the distinction between mortal and venial sin, the fact of temporal punishment, the necessity of good works, the efficacy of indulgences, and the usefulness of prayers for the dead. If sin is not remitted, but only covered; if the “new man” of the Gospel is Christ imputing His own justice to the still sinful man, it would indeed be useless to pray for the dead that they be loosed from their sins. Luther’s denial of Purgatory implied either the cruel doctrine that the greater number of even devout Christians were lost, which accounts in some measure for the modern denial of eternal punishment, or the unwarrented assumption that God by some sudden, magical change purifies the soul at the instant of death.

It would be in your best interest to review the following:

Numbers 20:12-2
2 Kings 12:13-14
Wisdom 7:25
Isaiah 25:8
Habakuk 1:13
Revelation 21:7
Matthew 12:31
1 Corinthians 3:11-15

From Tradition all the Fathers of East and West mention the Apostolic custom of praying for the dead:

Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. John Chysostom and St. Jerome to name a few.

---

1 Thess. 5:21

 

[guanophore]

For the interpretation of these verses, PLEASE ASK YOUR NEAREST JEW.

I don’t have any Jews handy right now. Does anyone know of one who is near?

The original Lutheranism was very Catholic. Luther retained his belief in the 7 sacraments, and prayed his Rosary every day.

 

[Jimmy_B]

thats just about the same as saying that lutherans are very much a catholic religion. simply because it was founded by catholics.

Hello AgnosTheist,

I do believe that some non-Catholic and “Protestant” denominations are more “catholic” in their beliefs than others, and that the Lutheran religion is more “catholic” than some other “protestant” denominations. However, this is not, as the result of denominations being “started” by former Catholic priests, although, many were former Catholics. I believe this occurred because the original breaks were from the Roman Catholic Church, where now, there exist many sub-divisions of “Protestantism”, or breaks from other “Protestant” denominations.

Although, the Lutheran Church was not “started” or founded by Martin Luther himself, who was a Catholic priest, King Henry VIII, in England, started the first Protestant Church (the Church of England). King Henry VIII was attracted to and heavily influenced by Luther’s (false) anti-Catholic rhetoric. King Henry VIII, who was also very anti-Catholic himself, adopted anti-Catholic beliefs and he started an anti-Catholic Church. King Henry VIII also started an anti-Catholic war, where he persecuted and murdered many Catholics.

Luther lived during King Henry VIII’s time and his ideas influence the English King but Luther’s “movement” was started, in Germany. Even though, King Henry VIII used Martin Luther’s ideas, I am not aware of many Catholic priests who “started” or actually founded a “Protestant” denomination. Do have some examples of this?

Martin Luther started an anti-Catholic “movement” against the Roman Catholic Church, during the beginning of an anti-religion, anti-God, “intellectual” era. Luther did not “start” or found any particular religion.

Some “Protestants”, obviously share more “catholic” beliefs than others, take for example this thread and others on Mary; some “Protestant” Christians don’t have a “problem” with Mary and others do. Some "Protestant” denominations believe in transubstantiation where others do not and so on.

All non-Catholic Christian denominations share “catholic” beliefs because Catholicism was the first Christian religion and they all follow or occurred after Catholicism.

One cannot connect the “Christian dots” and leave out the “Catholic dots” or the “King Henry VIII dots”.

Your Thoughts?

Take Care

 

[peary]

**When Jesus saw his mother 11 and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. (John 19:26-27).

The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, 11 and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Luke 1:31-33)

In both these verses is summed up the Church’s understanding of Mary. First, in Luke it says that she has found and has been favored by God to be the mother of the Savior. Then:

• He will be great
• He will be called “Son of the Most High” God
• God will give him the *throne of David *(as King)
• He will rule over the house of Israel forever (for eternity)
• His Kingdom will never end (it is eternal)

You have to look at the Davidic Kingdom to see the relationship between Jesus and his mother Mary. It is only hinted at in these verses, but in the Davidic Kingdom of the Old Testament, it was the mother who is queen, not the king’s wife. And what is the role of the queen mother in the Davidic Kingdom? To be an advocate for the people to the king.

Those who accepted Christ as the Messiah and the Eternal King of Israel knew this. That is why devotion to the mother of the Messiah as advocate of the people has always been an integral part of the Church since its earliest days. Another synonym for ‘advocate’ of course, is ‘intercessor.’

In John now, the beloved disciple of Jesus has always been looked upon as us - me, you, each and every Christian disciple of the Lord. When Jesus tells John “Behold your mother” he is telling us to take her into our own hearts and homes as our own. It was Christ’s last ‘request’ (if you will) from the Cross because immediately afterwards He says “It is finished.” Everything now is accomplished. His death is the final expiation of our sins.

You have to make connections. You have to read between the lines. **

 

[Huguenot]

This tread is for all those non-Catholic Christians who claim that, “The Bible is rather silent when is comes the Mary”.

****Mary ******the Mother of God - in the Bible **(1 of 4)

---

---

A look at the Mary of the Bible with *references to Mary highlighted in Red.

Genesis 3:15
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

Revelation 12
1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child… …(4) Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. 6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.
10 Anyone destined for captivity goes into captivity. Anyone destined to be slain by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Such is the faithful endurance of the holy ones.
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Revelation
(NAB) 12)

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. (Isaiah (NAB) 7)

Matthew 1
18 Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit. 19 Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly. 20 Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. 21 She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means “God is with us.” 24 When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home.25 He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus. (Matthew 1:18-25 (NAB) 1)

Continued on next post –

It is neither as silent as some Protestants make it, neither as “talkative” as some Catholics make it …( immaculate conception ? assumption ??? )
in my church we’ve already had several preachings about her …

 

[peary]

I don’t have any Jews handy right now. Does anyone know of one who is near?

The original Lutheranism was very Catholic. Luther retained his belief in the 7 sacraments, and prayed his Rosary every day.

**That’s not true. There are only two officially sanctioned sacraments in Lutheranism: Baptism and Confirmation, and there is another set of two which may or may not be followed by variant Lutheran groups: Communion and Orders.

Martin Luther rejected devotions to saints and to the Blessed Mother, although he still honored her as the Mother of God. But he rejected the Rosary and never recited it. **

 

[Huguenot]

**That’s not true. There are only two officially sanctioned sacraments in Lutheranism: Baptism and Confirmation, and there is another set of two which may or may not be followed by variant Lutheran groups: Communion and Orders.

Martin Luther rejected devotions to saints and to the Blessed Mother, although he still honored her as the Mother of God. But he rejected the Rosary and never recited it. **

It’s amazing how many times, on this forum, I’ve read that Luther prayed the Rosary, somebody even said that on his death bed his last prayer was addressed to Mary …
Maybe he still prayed Mary ( and perhaps other “saints” ) at the “beginning”, he discovered some biblical truths little by little ; I think I’ve read a text where he protested against the fact that people abused ( used too much ) the rosary, but not against the fact, in itself, of using it, but that later he totally abandoned the intercession of saints ( Mary included ) …in fact, like other Protestants ; but Lutherans don’t have problems with calling her “mother of God”, whereas other Protestants do …
As for the fact that Lutherans respect her, well it is true for other Protestants too : I don’t know one that “despises” her ; what we don’t agree with is the fact of praying to her …

 

[justasking4]

It’s amazing how many times, on this forum, I’ve read that Luther prayed the Rosary, somebody even said that on his death bed his last prayer was addressed to Mary …
Maybe he still prayed Mary ( and perhaps other “saints” ) at the “beginning”, he discovered some biblical truths little by little ; I think I’ve read a text where he protested against the fact that people abused ( used too much ) the rosary, but not against the fact, in itself, of using it, but that later he totally abandoned the intercession of saints ( Mary included ) …in fact, like other Protestants ; but Lutherans don’t have problems with calling her “mother of God”, whereas other Protestants do …
As for the fact that Lutherans respect her, well it is true for other Protestants too : I don’t know one that “despises” her ; what we don’t agree with is the fact of praying to her …

Do you think its a sin to pray to her or the saints?

 

[peary]

Do you think its a sin to pray to her or the saints?

Why should it be?

 

[justasking4]

**
Originally Posted by justasking4
Do you think its a sin to pray to her or the saints?

peary

Why should it be?**

A couple of reasons:
1- putting your trust in a dead person that you have no way of knowing is can hear you or do anything about your requests.
2- it takes away a person’ dependence on Christ alone. We see this in the many devotions to Mary and the saints.
3- The scriptures never speak of praying to dead saints ever.
3- all proper prayers in the scriptures are always directed to God directly.

 

[guanophore]

A couple of reasons:
1- putting your trust in a dead person that you have no way of knowing is can hear you or do anything about your requests.

Asking other Christians for prayer is not a sin, and is clearly biblical. Jesus is very clear in scripture that those who believe in Him NEVER DIE. It is puzzling to me how you think that the words of Jesus are false.

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

The saints in heaven can hear whatever God wants them to hear.

2- it takes away a person’ dependence on Christ alone. We see this in the many devotions to Mary and the saints.

This is a GREAT thing! The notion of “Jesus and me alone” is contrary to all the teachings of Jesus. We are told to bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. We are to love one another, not “Jesus alone”. This is a modern innovation that is found nowhere in the Apostolic teachings. Jesus founded a Church, and gave explicit instructions on how the members of it are to relate to one another. Paul writes about how all the members of the body need one another.

3- The scriptures never speak of praying to dead saints ever.

Indeed not. Scripture shows us that God is the God of living, not the dead, an that those who are in Christ are alive.

3- all proper prayers in the scriptures are always directed to God directly.

So, the prayers that are directed to other believers are “improper”?

Is it “improper” for Paul to ask for the intercession of the Saints?