This verse disproves purgatory

[Zooey]

That quote talks about the last day and the resurrection of the body.

 

[PrayForMeStJude]

I agree ! The term, ‘purgatory’ itself is never found in scripture, nor any reference is given in scripture. If you miss heaven, you won’t be going to purgatory or any other place, you will be going to hell !

Boy, where do we even start with this…

First of all, whether the word “Purgatory” is in the Bible or not doesn’t matter at all. The word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible. But just as the concept of the Trinity is clearly referenced in the Bible, so too is Purgatory.

Jesus speaks of sinners being forgiven “in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), which suggests the purgation of souls. Paul writes that a righteous man who is found wanting upon judgement “will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). This suggests the purgation of souls.

And of course we must look to the source of Christianity: Judaism. Jews then and now offer prayers for the dead, and such prayers are lauded in the bibile, indicating that they must be efficacious. This means there must be a place of purgation, in which souls can benefit from prayer.

It was and is Jewish practice to say mourning prayers for a length of time after the death of a loved one, which also points to purgation after death. This is illustrated in the book of Maccabbes, which Luther and other protestants purposefully removed from the Bible in order to remove references to Purgatory, states:

“In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45).

The Bible was compiled after hundreds of years of Christianity. To find the real truth look to what the early Christians believed, not to what the protestant down the street thinks the Bible says. St. Augustine of Hippo, who lived in the age before the final form of the Bible had been solidly settled upon, clearly believed in Purgatory. He wrote in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13).

St. John Crysostom wrote “Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them” (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

St. Gregory of Nyssa wrote that if a man "has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire” (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).

 

[Godfollower]

InDefense;8714881:

I agree ! The term, ‘purgatory’ itself is never found in scripture, nor any reference is given in scripture. If you miss heaven, you won’t be going to purgatory or any other place, you will be going to hell !

Boy, where do we even start with this…

First of all, whether the word “Purgatory” is in the Bible or not doesn’t matter at all. The word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible. But just as the concept of the Trinity is clearly referenced in the Bible, so too is Purgatory.

Jesus speaks of sinners being forgiven “in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), which suggests the purgation of souls. Paul writes that a righteous man who is found wanting upon judgement “will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). This suggests the purgation of souls.

And of course we must look to the source of Christianity: Judaism. Jews then and now offer prayers for the dead, and such prayers are lauded in the bibile, indicating that they must be efficacious. This means there must be a place of purgation, in which souls can benefit from prayer.

It was and is Jewish practice to say mourning prayers for a length of time after the death of a loved one, which also points to purgation after death. This is illustrated in the book of Maccabbes, which Luther and other protestants purposefully removed from the Bible in order to remove references to Purgatory, states:

“In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45).

The Bible was compiled after hundreds of years of Christianity. To find the real truth look to what the early Christians believed, not to what the protestant down the street thinks the Bible says. St. Augustine of Hippo, who lived in the age before the final form of the Bible had been solidly settled upon, clearly believed in Purgatory. He wrote in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13).

St. John Crysostom wrote “Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them” (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

St. Gregory of Nyssa wrote that if a man "has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire” (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).

Although, to be fair, InDefense is actually getting close to the Catholic theology relating to Purgatory. It has always been Catholic teaching that “If you miss heaven, . . . you will be going to hell!” There are only two ultimate destinations: Heaven and Hell. It’s just that – as Scripture teaches us – “There shall not enter into it [Heaven] any thing defiled” (meaning that we have to be cleansed – purged, if you will – before entering Heaven (if that is our ultimate destination)).

Catholics call that cleansing Purgatory. Non-Catholics have other terms: “But the Bible is wrong” is probably the most accurate description of their beliefs.

But at least InDefense is almost right: there are, in fact, only the two ultimate destinations. Now s/he just needs to understand how an impure person gets cleansed before entering Heaven.

 

[zz912]

To the OP, the verse quoted is talking about the Second Coming of Christ. Before His Second Coming, there will be a terrible tribulation on earth. So many people who will eventually be in Heaven will be working their purgation out on earth in the tribulations.

 

[Ranp]

I completely believe in purgatory b/c the Church teaches it. Just wondering what a response to this passage might be.

“…the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”
1 Timothy 3:15 -

Since the Catholic Church is the church of the living God and is the pillar and foundation of the truth and the church teaches that we all go throw Purgatory before entering Heaven then I have not choice but to believe in Purgatory. To disbelieve in Purgatory is to disbelieve in the fullness of God’s Truth.

 

[vz71]

1 Corinthians 15:51-52:

“Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”

In a moment we will change from corrupted sinners to perfect saints in heaven. No time for a stop in purgatory it seems…

Easy to prove otherwise.
Just go to the funeral home. There are plenty of bodies, not a one has risen. Plenty of time for the master of time itself to do whatever he wants.

 

[SwissGuard25]

1 Corinthians 15:51-52:

“Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”

In a moment we will change from corrupted sinners to perfect saints in heaven. No time for a stop in purgatory it seems…

This talks about raising mortal bodies

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

I don’t understand why people are afraid of purgatory.

I understand why. It’s painful there. I hate how the liberal catholics make it like some sort of waiting room for heaven. The level of torment is like HELL, but you get out when you’re time’s up and you have hope of your time of release, not eternal despair. Some levels of purgatory even have demons torturing people.

 

[vz71]

Some levels of purgatory even have demons torturing people.

I would love to read more on this.
Can yuo send me the links or reference information?

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

I would love to read more on this.
Can yuo send me the links or reference information?

Certainly. A great way to learn all about the “place”(or rather state) of purgatory is this book:

Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints
It’s published through TAN. It’s a book compiling the saints’ experiences in their visions that concerned purgatory. It also explains the Church’s teaching on purgatory. The book compiling the visions was written by a French Jesuit in the 1800s. It’s translated from french.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M68SJ71JL.SS500.jpg

 

[Godfollower]

DihydrogenOxide;8716896:

kmuestwin;8705274:

I don’t understand why people are afraid of purgatory.

I understand why. It’s painful there. I hate how the liberal catholics make it like some sort of waiting room for heaven. The level of torment is like HELL, but you get out when you’re time’s up and you have hope of your time of release, not eternal despair. Some levels of purgatory even have demons torturing people.

I would love to read more on this.
Can yuo send me the links or reference information?

There aren’t any (at least, not in public revelation; private revelation may or may not be useful here, because private revelation is usually not intended for public theology). We actually don’t know much about Purgatory. It might even be instantaneous. All we know about it is that nothing impure can enter Heaven; the unforgiveable sin cannot be forgiven “either in this age or in the age to come;” some of the saved headed for Heaven (those still bound by concupiscence) will be saved “though as through fire;” and eventually Purgatory will be empty, because it is not a final destination but merely a stop on the way to Heaven.

It’s a fertile ground for speculative theology (the actual discipline, that is). And it’s fun to try to imagine what it might be like. We don’t actually know that Purgatory will be painful, though we believe that it probably will be (though it isn’t the “Here’s your punishment” type of pain; it’s more analogous to a doctor saying “This is going to hurt”). It might even be emotional pain more than physical: imagine sitting down with Jesus while He discussed every sin you ever committed and how it hurt Him to see you committing it. It might last for a long time; it might be instantaneous; it might actually be outside both time and space. None of that has been revealed to us.

I agree with Kmuestwin that Purgatory is a blessing and not something to be feared. Thank you, God, for saving us in the first place; but also for helping us become cleansed so we can enter Your Presence in the afterlife.

 

[vz71]

Certainly. A great way to learn all about the “place”(or rather state) of purgatory is this book:

Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints
It’s published through TAN. It’s a book compiling the saints’ experiences in their visions that concerned purgatory. It also explains the Church’s teaching on purgatory. The book compiling the visions was written by a French Jesuit in the 1800s. It’s translated from french.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M68SJ71JL.SS500.jpg

Thanks.
It will be my ChristMass present to me.

 

[PrayForMeStJude]

There aren’t any (at least, not in public revelation; private revelation may or may not be useful here, because private revelation is usually not intended for public theology). We actually don’t know much about Purgatory. It might even be instantaneous. All we know about it is that nothing impure can enter Heaven; the unforgiveable sin cannot be forgiven “either in this age or in the age to come;” some of the saved headed for Heaven (those still bound by concupiscence) will be saved “though as through fire;” and eventually Purgatory will be empty, because it is not a final **destination **but merely a **stop **on the way to Heaven.

All correct. But I think the reason Protestants get such an odd impression of Catholic beliefs on Purgatory is because we speak of it as a place, rather than a process.

I prefer to use the term “undergo purgation” rather than “go to purgatory.”

 

[PJM]

=Link0126;8705130]1 Corinthians 15:51-52:

“Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”

In a moment we will change from corrupted sinners to perfect saints in heaven. No time for a stop in purgatory it seems…

Not when it is correctly understood my friend;

There is ONE Infallible Rule to correct understanding the Bible. NEVER, EVER can one part of the bible contradict another. SHOULD THIS APPEAR TO HAPPEN WE CAN BE CERTAIN THAT IT IS HUMAN ERROR AND LACK OF UNDERSTANDING:thumbsup:

Purgatory passages:

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

**Matt.5: 48 **“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Your passage must be broken down to understand it.

1. Those who have not yet died and are in the state of Grace will attain heaven; BUT it does NOT calim without a necessary purification be paid for first. “We will be changed refers to our New Immortla pefected BODIES; not our Souls.”
2. The Dead too will be given NEW perfected Immportal Bodies; but again this does not elimiante the need to first have our SOLS perfected; worthy to be in the Divine presence.

From the DR Bible
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption: and this mortal must put on immortality.

Explanation by Haydock
Ver. 52. In a moment, &c. By the power of the Almighty all shall rise again in their bodies, either to a happy or a miserable resurrection.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Zooey]

I agree with Kmuestwin that Purgatory is a blessing and not something to be feared. Thank you, God, for saving us in the first place; but also for helping us become cleansed so we can enter Your Presence in the afterlife.

Amen.
Whatever it may be, it is NOT hell,it is not forever, & it is our last stop before the Presence of Our Lord.
People, purgatory is a gift!!

 

[InDefense]

No such place or process called ‘purgatory’. It doesn’t exist !

 

[bmullins]

No such place or process called ‘purgatory’. It doesn’t exist !

It amazes me how there can be several pages of scriptural and traditional evidence to the contrary, that purgatory does indeed exist, but that many of us (and I was one of those for many years) just refuse to investigate for ourselves. We allow what concepts we have personally made our own traditions to cloud our ability to even consider the evidence.

 

[Ignatius]

1 Corinthians 15:51-52:

“Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”

In a moment we will change from corrupted sinners to perfect saints in heaven. No time for a stop in purgatory it seems…

I don’t think you understand purgatory. You should read the Catechism. The section on purgatory says nothing about time.

 

[Ignatius]

Time as we know it doesn’t exist in the afterlife.

Given that then, at one moment we are corrupted sinners, the next, perfect saints. Even Between these two events, a change had to take place. This can be accurately called Purgatory. Time, in the, um, temporal sense of the world, is no factor here; the perceived duration is up to God.

Exactly!

 

[Jack_Dean]

Thanks for the great responses. I admit I am one who has struggled with the whole concept of purgatory. This has helped me better understand the concept. I was always under the impression that since Jesus told the thief on the cross “this day you will be with me in paradise” that there was no purgatory. The idea that purgatory could be instantaneous might make that possible. Anyway, thanks for all the great responses.