Thomas More

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Sir Thomas More is well known for his principled objection to Henry VIII’s assumption of royal control of the English Church (Ecclesia Anglica). More was executed by Henry’s courts for treason based on this objection. Roman Catholics and even most Anglicans consider him to be a martyr, and he is a saint in the Catholic church.

When Sir Thomas was chancellor of England, he vigorously pursued Protestants, and under his governance, six protestants were burned at the stake. I know times were different and I am not placing particular blame on Sir Thomas for the taking of the lives of people who took a principled stand (in similar character to the stand that Sir Thomas was later to take) for their religious beliefs.

My question is, given that much of what the Protestants argued for (the Bible in English for example) is now accepted and embraced in the Catholic church, shouldn’t these Protestants also be honored as martyrs by all Christians?
 
Sir Thomas More is well known for his principled objection to Henry VIII’s assumption of royal control of the English Church (Ecclesia Anglica). More was executed by Henry’s courts for treason based on this objection. Roman Catholics and even most Anglicans consider him to be a martyr, and he is a saint in the Catholic church.

When Sir Thomas was chancellor of England, he vigorously pursued Protestants, and under his governance, six protestants were burned at the stake. I know times were different and I am not placing particular blame on Sir Thomas for the taking of the lives of people who took a principled stand (in similar character to the stand that Sir Thomas was later to take) for their religious beliefs.

My question is, given that much of what the Protestants argued for (the Bible in English for example) is now accepted and embraced in the Catholic church, shouldn’t these Protestants also be honored as martyrs by all Christians?
That’s an excellent question and deserves a rational response.

First, martyrs and saints are not the same. Not all martyrs are saints and not all saints are martyrs.

Second, the Church recognizes as saint a person who has lived a heroic life of Christian virtue in full communion with the Catholic Church. She has no authority over those who are not in communion with Catholicism. Therefore, she cannot proclaim a non-Catholic a saint.

Third, a person who gives his life for his convictions is certainly a martyr. There are many kinds of martyrs. There are martyrs among many people, Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. If we stop and think about the many people that the Nazis and the Communists killed for their faith, Catholics and other, these folks are martyrs. They committed not crime other than being, whatever.

As to the fate of these folks, we commend them to the merciful God who rewards any honest man or woman who tries to do what he or she believes is pleasing to God. God certainly does not overlook the content of the heart and conscience.

I want to comment on St. Thomas More’s execution of the six heretics. There are three important points and you made one of them.
  1. Thomas was a man of his time. In those days, heresy was a capital offense. This remained the same when the monarchy took control of the English church. It was a mindset of the time, not a doctrine of the Catholic Church. If you were a heretic, you were a criminal. There are many explanations for this thinking and they all contradict each other. I don’t find them to be very edifying. That’s why I stick with ascetical and mystical theology. It’s practical. 🤷
  2. There was blur between true reformers and rebels. Some reformers became rebels. They threw out the baby and the water. This destabilized an already precarious monarchy. As Lord Chancellor, one of Thomas’ temporal duties was to serve the kingdom. Regardless of why heretics were condemned as criminals, let’s accept for a moment that this was the law of the land. In Thomas’ mind, it was his moral duty to protect the monarchy. He was the Chancellor. Failure to do so would be weakness in his Christian duty.
  1. Finally, More was not canonized for killing heretics. He was canonized for laying down his life for the faith. Many people do not know that More was a Franciscan. In the Rule to the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, the order to which he belonged, Francis quoted the scripture, “A man can do no greater thing than to lay down his life for his friends.” More was a very wise man. He was well aware of the corruption and sin in the Church. He had no use for Cardinal Wolsey. He hoped and prayed that the sins inside the Church would be overcome. He was also aware of the obsession that Henry had with a male heir.
However, More loved the Church and the King. He saw the good and the necessity of both. Unfortunately for Henry, he pushed More against the wall. He demanded that More take sides. The Rule of St. Francis says that the brothers and sisters shall obey the ecclesial authority, without question, even when they believe authority to be mistaken or when they believe that they have a better idea (I’m paraphrasing from the original Latin). The ecclesial authority could only be disobeyed when it commanded sin. More certainly did so when Cardinal Wolsey was Chancellor. But when Wolsey commanded something that was imprudent, but not sinful, More obeyed. He applied the same principle to Henry. When Henry asks him to take the Oath, he’s asking him to sin. More does as the scripture says. He lays down his life for his King and for his Church. He understood that he would do the king a greater service from heaven, than he would by betraying the faith. He actually said this to his daughter.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Sir Thomas More is well known for his principled objection to Henry VIII’s assumption of royal control of the English Church (Ecclesia Anglica). More was executed by Henry’s courts for treason based on this objection. Roman Catholics and even most Anglicans consider him to be a martyr, and he is a saint in the Catholic church.

When Sir Thomas was chancellor of England, he vigorously pursued Protestants, and under his governance, six protestants were burned at the stake. I know times were different and I am not placing particular blame on Sir Thomas for the taking of the lives of people who took a principled stand (in similar character to the stand that Sir Thomas was later to take) for their religious beliefs.

My question is, given that much of what the Protestants argued for (the Bible in English for example) is now accepted and embraced in the Catholic church, shouldn’t these Protestants also be honored as martyrs by all Christians?
The fact is, you cannot take a principled stand against that which is revealed by God through His Church. For this reason, the renegade Catholics who became disciples of Luther cannot be honored as martyrs. These issues, incidentally, are addressed very cogently and lucidly by More himself in his Dialogue Concerning Heresy.

And at the risk of getting this thread on a tangent, I must point out that we are not indebted to Protestantism for Bibles in English. There were vernacular translations in many languages centuries before Protestants came along. Translations into English were around as early as the 8th century.
 
My question is, given that much of what the Protestants argued for (the Bible in English for example) is now accepted and embraced in the Catholic church, shouldn’t these Protestants also be honored as martyrs by all Christians?
I’m not sure I agree that the Church has “embraced” the Anglican translations of the Bible inter alia. Personally I have some major issues with Cranmer’s translations of the Roman liturgy, some of which the ICEL unfortunately has managed to pick up. However, I wouldn’t call all of the Anglican translations heretical, however.

But whether or not the items in question are heretical or not (after all, heresy is still heresy), that doesn’t mean Cranmer et al would be considered heretics in today’s climate. Whether they should be considered martyrs and saints by the Catholic Church is a decision we’ll just have to leave up to the Vatican. As far as I know, though we are all “brothers,” TAC is still separate from Rome.

JR, that was a good writeup of St. Thomas More, one of my favorite saints and probably a favorite of many Catholics in the U.K.
 
I’m not sure I agree that the Church has “embraced” the Anglican translations of the Bible inter alia. Personally I have some major issues with Cranmer’s translations of the Roman liturgy, some of which the ICEL unfortunately has managed to pick up. However, I wouldn’t call all of the Anglican translations heretical, however.

But whether or not the items in question are heretical or not (after all, heresy is still heresy), that doesn’t mean Cranmer et al would be considered heretics in today’s climate. Whether they should be considered martyrs and saints by the Catholic Church is a decision we’ll just have to leave up to the Vatican. As far as I know, though we are all “brothers,” TAC is still separate from Rome.

JR, that was a good writeup of St. Thomas More, one of my favorite saints and probably a favorite of many Catholics in the U.K.
Thanks for the compliment. I love More.

That being said, the answer to the OP is twofold, as I said above. We can identify martyrs from any faith and many kinds.

Canonization is a whole other story. The Catholic Church does not have the authority to canonize anyone outside the Church, even if they did give up their lives for the Lord. Canonization is a juridical process. You can’t exercise it over people who are not under your jurisdiction. However, that does not mean that there have not been non-Catholics who gave their lives for the Lord. To say that there have not been is foolish.

As I pointed above, all we have to do is to look at the many people that were killed by Nazis and Communists for their religious convictions. These folks did nothing wrong, other than to be Jewish, Muslim or Christian. When they fell out of grace with despots, they were executed. Stop and think how arrogant it would be on our part to say that God ignores the heart of such a person.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Usbek, the singular fact is that Cranmer and all the other Protestant heretics actively taught that the Papacy, as was, existed outside the true Church. All the Reformed men believed that the Pope was indeed the bishop of Rome, but that he had “gone too far” and had cajoled other bishops of the world into subservience. They preferred to go back to a pre-Gregorian model of the Papacy (as they saw it), and denied the legitimacy of the previous 1400 years of changes.

Just because some Catholic liturgists and architects exhibited signs of iconoclasm in teh 1960’s and 1970’s doesn’t mean we’ve accepted the no-corpus, no-pope, no-Latin, no-saintly-intercession line of the Protestants. There are still huge differences between the true Magisterial Church and the dissenters. 🙂
 
Usbek, the singular fact is that Cranmer and all the other Protestant heretics actively taught that the Papacy, as was, existed outside the true Church. All the Reformed men believed that the Pope was indeed the bishop of Rome, but that he had “gone too far” and had cajoled other bishops of the world into subservience. They preferred to go back to a pre-Gregorian model of the Papacy (as they saw it), and denied the legitimacy of the previous 1400 years of changes.

Just because some Catholic liturgists and architects exhibited signs of iconoclasm in teh 1960’s and 1970’s doesn’t mean we’ve accepted the no-corpus, no-pope,** no-Latin**, no-saintly-intercession line of the Protestants. There are still huge differences between the true Magisterial Church and the dissenters. 🙂
Those are not exactly Protestant. In fact they are very Catholic and have been with us for over 1,000 years. It’s just that most American Catholics have never known this side of the Curch. The no saints is a Protestant belief. The no pope is a rather tricky concept. We’ve always had a pope, obviously. I believe that to many Protestants the confusion about the papacy is attached to the confusion about Holy Orders and Apostolic Succession. The issue is deeper than the person or the office of the pope.

During the life of Thomas More, which is who this thread is about, the issue was not Apostolic Succession. Henry VIII and the Anglicans were not too concerned with this question. The OP wants to know about More and the non-Catholic martyrs. It seems that we’re taking up time and space discussing the merits and demerits of the Reformation. There are entire theses on that subject. The question is can we consider a non-Catholic who dies for his faith a martyr? The answer is, yes. However, not all martyrs are saints and not all saints are martyrs. They meet the criteria for martyr. Do they meet the criteria for canonization? No . . . because the Church cannot canonize someone who is not in communion with the Church. The fact that we don’t canonize someone who is not in communion with the Catholic Church does not mean that the Catholic Church believes they are not in heaven. They are two separate questions.

Is the non-Catholic in Heaven?

We pray that is the case.

Can we canonize?

No.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Second, the Church recognizes as saint a person who has lived a heroic life of Christian virtue in full communion with the Catholic Church. She has no authority over those who are not in communion with Catholicism. Therefore, she cannot proclaim a non-Catholic a saint.
The Chalcedonian churches recognise the Nestorian St. Isaac (“the Syrian”) of Nineveh as a saint…
 
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