Thomas's forth way

[seagal]

There is no barrier between God and the universe, including man. Of course I believe in Divine Revelation, but that ended with the death of the last Apostle.

Linus2nd

When you say there’s no barrier between God and the universe I assume you don’t mean that there’s no distinction between God and the universe. I think that’s how Bahman is reading it.

 

[Bahman]

There is no barrier between God and the universe, including man. Of course I believe in Divine Revelation, but that ended with the death of the last Apostle.

Linus2nd

By boundary I meant something which can resolve the conflict and not a barrier. We are of course mutually exclusive.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

By boundary I meant something which can resolve the conflict and not a barrier. We are of course mutually exclusive.

When you say something must intervene between the universe ( including men ) and God, you are assuming there is a barrier or wall that exists.

But, as I have shown, that is not true. There is no barrier and there is no need for some connecting " boundary " ( which is a very poor choice of metaphore). For example, the Bible is a complete history of interaction between God, the world, and man. And we have instances of the same thing taking place right up to our own time, appearances of the Blessed Mother. visions given to the saints, and of course the best example is at the consecration of the Mass when the priest makes Christ present in the Eucharist.

And aside from all that we have evidences left by God in the very nature of things. This is what I call natural " revelation, " all of nature tells us God exists, and that is a Divine communication…

If you are going to exclude God from interaction with the universe, then you are left with a universe which is unexplainable. And as St. Thomas said and the Church testifies, that is not possible, It is not possible that the universe accounts for its own existence. And Thomas Aquinas has demonstrated why such a thought is not rational. And thousands have followed him and offered their own explanations why this is irrational.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

When you say something must intervene between the universe ( including men ) and God, you are assuming there is a barrier or wall that exists.

But, as I have shown, that is not true. There is no barrier and there is no need for some connecting " boundary " ( which is a very poor choice of metaphore). For example, the Bible is a complete history of interaction between God, the world, and man. And we have instances of the same thing taking place right up to our own time, appearances of the Blessed Mother. visions given to the saints, and of course the best example is at the consecration of the Mass when the priest makes Christ present in the Eucharist.

And aside from all that we have evidences left by God in the very nature of things. This is what I call natural " revelation, " all of nature tells us God exists, and that is a Divine communication…

If you are going to exclude God from interaction with the universe, then you are left with a universe which is unexplainable. And as St. Thomas said and the Church testifies, that is not possible, It is not possible that the universe accounts for its own existence. And Thomas Aquinas has demonstrated why such a thought is not rational. And thousands have followed him and offered their own explanations why this is irrational.

Linus2nd

So you accept that there is a gap between. What I am saying that there should boundary in which it is neither can fill this gap? Am I correct?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

So you accept that there is a gap between. What I am saying that there should boundary in which it is neither can fill this gap? Am I correct?

There is no " boundary " and " gap " means only that the universe and man are time bound, contingent and limited, whereas God is eternal, uncaused, and unlimited or infinite. I have already explained that this ontological difference is not a barrier to mutual communication. And you have not proven otherwise.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

When you say there’s no barrier between God and the universe I assume you don’t mean that there’s no distinction between God and the universe. I think that’s how Bahman is reading it.

I don’t think you have read my response, there is no " boundary " and " gap " means only that the universe and man are time bound, contingent and limited, whereas God is eternal, uncaused, and unlimited or infinite. I have already explained that this ontological difference is not a barrier to mutual communication. Bahman has not proven otherwise.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

There is no " boundary " and " gap " means only that the universe and man are time bound, contingent and limited, whereas God is eternal, uncaused, and unlimited or infinite. I have already explained that this ontological difference is not a barrier to mutual communication. And you have not proven otherwise.

Linus2nd

Timeless and time bound! I am wondering why don’t you see the problem. :banghead:

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Timeless and time bound! I am wondering why don’t you see the problem. :banghead:

Just because you say there is a problem doesn’t mean there is one…

Linus2nd