Thomistic Argument

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If you truly understood quantum physics and the epistemological context in which it is expressed, you would not make reference to it.
Oh, so you are an expert of QM, are you?
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We are not talking about the potential nature of something. We are talking about change. If something is not changing, the you cannot get change from it since change is not in it.
That’s correct. If there is no potential to change in something then it cannot change.
Therfore, a reality without potential to change cannot change.
I see a straw-man brewing. But Yes. And so you should have no problem with understanding that something which is not changing cannot spontaneously change by itself or in virtue of itself without a sufficient cause. Thats just logic.
No, that’s just intuition and probably wrong.
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What do you think?:rolleyes:
I honestly do not have a clue as to what you mean.
Then demonstrate that i am wrong, and stop pretending that you know something we don’t know.
I have never said that change was not part of its nature. Of course chnage is part of its nature, change is part of the nature of everything that exists.
You are dodging the argument. Your straw-man version of God is relevant to whether or not your argument is rational, which it isn’t. It seems strange to me that you would attempt to refer me to your straw-man understanding of quantum physics as a defense and yet here you are discriminating against the rationality of your straw-man version of God.
Well, my strawman version of QM is the predominant view among physicists. But if youi have discovered something they haven’t, just write a paper on it, the Nobel prize is waiting for you.
You don’t know what you are talking about. You are clearly not interested in what people truly teach about Gods creative act or quantum physics.
“People” teach a whole lot of different things about God’s creative act, and as far as QM is concerned, my interpretation is most certainly possible, unless you have just made an imporatant discovery. I’ll keep an eye on the newspapers.
You just love your straw-men a bit too much, and its getting tiresome constantly refuting them.
There seems to be something wrong with your physical condition, Mind, because you are already tired and I haven’t even seen an attempt at refuting my arguments.
No doubt you are going to present another straw-man about quantum physics in the next post about how it proves that contradictions can exist. Stick to what you know or go back to school instead of wasting our time. I have heard it all before, and its all irrational.

Most of the time when people start caling names and insulting other people that’s a sign they are frustrated because thet realize they do not have a real argument. Still, if you truly haver anything substantial to offer, you may do so I won’t hold my breathn though.
Why would i bother with somebody who clearly is not mature enough to accept when their wrong; let alone acknowledge when a valid argument is presented. You just want to be rebellious because you think its cool; you are not a true intellectual. I have no more time for you.
A valid argument? I don’t even see an argument, let alone a valid one.
But really, if you don’t have anything to offer then leave this thread to people who are interested in a real discussion.
 
Science is not based on logical possibilities but facts.
Science is an example of how logical possibilities are an inadequate basis for any conclusions whatsoever.
Your claim takes you nowhere!
It may be better for you, Tony, to delay your comment until you actually understand the argument.

I can understand that your argument has no rational basis.
Ultimately it is impossible to prove
any facts whatsoever. Probability is the guide of life…
That may be so, but as it is, Trevor claims that what I say is impossible and the onus is on him to provide some evidence for that. I have already constructed an argument for why Thomistic cosmology is impossible. Not improbable but impossible. Even if my claim is improbable (which has to be shown first, BTW) it is still infinitely better than an impossible claim.
  1. You stated that there is no logical contradiction in something unmoving starting to move all by itself.
  2. You could make the same statement about any event whatsoever.
  3. Therefore your statement does precisely nothing to further the discussion.
  4. Nor can it be the basis of any positive claim on your part.
  5. You can take refuge in logical possibilities indefinitely - which makes you invulnerable but totally uncommitted and unconvincing.
 
Oh, so you are an expert of QM, are you?
I understand the epistemological context in which statements about quantum events are made and their relationship to ontology. As such, it is evident to me that you are not an expert but rather a mediocre philosopher that might have read a book on QM but evidently did not understand; as you would not bring it up in a metaphysical discussion to use as “positive evidence” for what is logically possible and what is not. Thats enough for me.
That’s correct. If there is no potential to change in something then it cannot change.

Therefore, a reality without potential to change cannot change.
Potentiality for change is not the same thing as something having the ability change itself from a state of no change without a sufficient cause (a contradiction), it is the capacity for change. Except for intelligence, there is no evidence whatsoever that there is a nature that is itself and by itself changing or is the being of potentiality. On the other-hand there is overwhelming evidence that if a thing begins to change it is because of something else. There is certainly no logical reason to conclude that something can move without a sufficient cause. Potentiality in and of itself is not an ontological being or attribute, it does not itself exist. The word merely symbolism what could exist. It is the capacity to take on that which is not already present in a things intrinsic nature, when given a sufficient cause; and until then change is not and cannot be present in its intrinsic nature. Change is not an attribute. Therefore it needs something to make it change. Otherwise you will be getting something out of nothing which is clearly what you are trying to do by suggesting that a thing can change itself from a state of no change. The only thing that can possibly change itself is an intelligent will.

The rest of your post is just one more assertion after enough, with no substantial evidence to back it up, and so i will not be responding to it.
 
The only thing I’m trying to show is that “if something moves, then it is moved.” The previous example illustrated this in the following way:

Bob ‘moves’ in so far as he accelerates from A to B. But, since that motion will not obtain unless something already in motion actualizes that acceleration’s potency, Bob must be moved in order to move. Therefore, if Bob moves, then he’s moved.
Perplexity:

This is a bit of a side-step from St. Thomas’ definition of “motion,” which happens to be the only definition of motion that does not use an example of motion to define itself. Because of this it is the only true definition of it. Besides, you are referring to an exigency that has “self-motion.” Nevertheless, even that which has self-motion must be moved by something else. Bob is thus moved by his muscles and bones, which are moved by electro-chemical processes in them, which are moved by signals from his brain, which are moved by other electro-chemical processes, which are moved by what we call needs, wants and desires, and so on. IOW, Bob is moved by his parts and more.

What we are talking about when we speak of “motion” as St. Thomas defines it, is motion of the whole being. No undivided, part-less whole can move itself unless it is moved by something else. Even at the quantum level, electrons do not move themselves. Every mobile being that mankind can sense (and many that he cannot sense) is moved by another, that is, in turn, moved by another ad infinitum - unachievable, unending, without parts or divisions, without time, with out sequence. (Or wait, perhaps there is that First Mover that is unmoved after all!)

But, all along here, we’ve been pretty much talking about local motion. St. Thomas was able to detect - so, so many years ago - that things were not only moved accidentally (as opposed to substantially) by other things, but that there were things that were, for example, brought into existence (moved substantially) by what we know to be a rather large huge string of efficient movers. Life is one of those things. Since we can build a replication of what must exist in order for life to ensue, yet are unable to make it so, we get an idea of the number of presuppositions that must be in place. And, like the boy who moves his feet, that moves his body, that moves his shoulder, that moves his arm, that moves his hand, that moves a stick, that moves a ball, it is a dependent series of motions that all take place simultaneously.

This is not in any way saying that something (else) is “actualizing a potency.” St. Thomas’ definition states that motion is the act of the potential precisely as potential, which avoids your confusion, yet maintains the definition qua definition - without circularity. What you are saying is that motion is the “act of the potential precisely as the act of the potential.” You are confusing the nothingness of potential that is the privation of Form with an actual something, of some sort. Nothing is nothing and nothing more; it is not something that merely appears to be nothing, according to some equivocality.

God bless,
jd
 
Most of the time when people start caling names and insulting other people that’s a sign they are frustrated because thet realize they do not have a real argument.
I couldn’t help my self but come back and make more fun of you:). Like you pointed out, “most” of the time its a sign of denial. This time…its because you are being irrational, and an insult is only one if it isn’t true:p. If its true, then the truth itself has insulted you; i just do the commentary.:cool:
Still, if you truly haver anything substantial to offer, you may do so I won’t hold my breathn though.
Thats only because i have already refuted you. So why would you need to hold your breath? Go to bed and put that big imagination of yours to work because its only in yours dreams that you will ever win a philosophical debate against me:D.
A valid argument? I don’t even see an argument
Well…opening your eyes when reading your opponents rebuttal might help with that:rolleyes:.
 
I feel my argument covered this. Now, since you think I’m a sophist I don’t feel inclined to go further (i.e., do the work for you), but since you’re not philosophizing here I don’t feel too bad about it.
Oh Gee! Look at how smart I am!!!
So take your toys and go home like the little college kid you probably are.
 
Oh Gee! Look at how smart I am!!!
So take your toys and go home like the little college kid you probably are.
What’s the point in saying stuff like this? I’m not your counselor, go vent to someone else lol. I haven’t been in college for years.
 
Finally; we are getting to the root of the problem.:rolleyes:

I doubt you went to school either.😃
So that wasn’t your last post to me? I’m flattered that you can’t seem to walk away. My initial reaction was to list the embarrassing things you’ve said to dish you up a nice slice of humble pie, but I’d rather ignore you, your arrogance doesn’t deserve attention.
 
So that wasn’t your last post to me? I’m flattered that you can’t seem to walk away. My initial reaction was to list the embarrassing things you’ve said to dish you up a nice slice of humble pie, but I’d rather ignore you, your arrogance doesn’t deserve attention.
😛
 
Why would God being eternally in motion mean He doesn’t exist?
Fair question. It would mean an unmoved mover doesn’t exist. Perhaps God isn’t an unmoved mover though. There are tons of theistic proposals, this only aims at one.
How does God being in motion mean that He was in turn moved by another?

All that it points to so far is that God is in motion but it does not mean that His motion was caused by another.

As the Thomist point tries to explain you cannot go into infinite regress.
 
I concede that my understanding differs from Aquinas, but I see it as more of a development. My argument is Thomistic in so far as it was inspired by Aquinas, it need not follow Aquinas to the letter.
Since your deviation affects definitions, then it ceases to be valid,

That would be like:

St Thomas ; A cat is a four legged animal that meows.

Perplexity: Let’s suppose that a cat is a four legged animal that neighs.
 
How does God being in motion mean that He was in turn moved by another?

All that it points to so far is that God is in motion but it does not mean that His motion was caused by another.

As the Thomist point tries to explain you cannot go into infinite regress.
I’m always fascinated to know why some one believes in the possibility of an infinite regress. Perhaps movement by itself is conceivably eternal but taken in conjunction with purpose it would amount to an unorthodox belief in God! (Ignoring the fact that physical movement is far less significant than purposeful activity… ;))
 
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