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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
On this point I think we can agree.
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gelsbern
Guest
There HAS been female deacons (deaconesses) and it can be proven with scripture, however their role which was to minister to women in certain sacraments (baptism was once done in the nude, annointing of the sick was done over the entire body) they were not actually ordained. They were there to protect the priests from potential scandal. Their role today would be equivalent to what is now a nun. Deaconesses, never disappeared, just just changed what they were called.
There was a good discussion of this on the Catholic Answers radio show a couple weeks ago. I wish I could remember what day.
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dennisknapp
Guest
I understand where you are coming from, but how do you respond to the CCC when it states, (and I know you are not Roman Catholic, but this is an inhouse issue)
1548 In the ecclesial service of the ordained minister, it is Christ himself who is present to his Church as Head of his Body, Shepherd of his flock, high priest of the redemptive sacrifice, Teacher of Truth. This is what the Church means by saying that the priest, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, acts in persona Christi Capitis:23
It is the same priest, Christ Jesus, whose sacred person his minister truly represents. Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is truly made like to the high priest and possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself (virtute ac persona ipsius Christi).24
Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ.25
1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. **The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.**68
1578 No one has a *right *to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. Indeed no one claims this office for himself; he is called to it by God.69 Anyone who thinks he recognizes the signs of God’s call to the ordained ministry must humbly submit his desire to the authority of the Church, who has the responsibility and right to call someone to receive orders. Like every grace this sacrament can be *received *only as an unmerited gift.
This issue of the sacramental character of the priest during the Mass in an important one. It in no way takes away from the dignity of women.
Peace
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Exporter
Guest
Steve wrote: "
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exporter
If women are put in a leadership position the men will naturally disrespect them and pull away.
Oh come on.
Where are you getting this stuff? Old “I love Lucy” re-runs?
There are women in positions of leadership all over the place. Even conservative Muslim societies like Indonesia and Pakistan have had women Prime Ministers.
Your statement is an insult to both sexes
Byzentine wrote: “Exporter has it right here. If the Church ever changed and allowed priestesses then it would cease to be the Church. It would be a Church”
No Steve, I didn’t get “this stuff” from Old I Love Lucy reruns. I got it from years of living , experience and from the Holy Mother Church.
There is quite a difference between a Muslim Prime Minister and a the Priesthood of Jesus Christ. Have you noticed how few boys elect to be Altar Boys since so many Churches allowed girls to be “Altar Boys”. It is human nature. You dont see many boys joining the Girl Scouts do you? As far your red herring, you threw that in because you didnt have anything of substance to say.
I was polite to you when I first posted on this thread. I told the truth and you don’t like it. I have a feeling that you and I are quite different. I will accept what The Pope and the Church has to say on this matter. I have a strong feeling that if a woman started to say Mass in our Church more than half would walk out in the first 2 minutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exporter
If women are put in a leadership position the men will naturally disrespect them and pull away.
Oh come on.
Where are you getting this stuff? Old “I love Lucy” re-runs?
There are women in positions of leadership all over the place. Even conservative Muslim societies like Indonesia and Pakistan have had women Prime Ministers.
Your statement is an insult to both sexes
Byzentine wrote: “Exporter has it right here. If the Church ever changed and allowed priestesses then it would cease to be the Church. It would be a Church”
No Steve, I didn’t get “this stuff” from Old I Love Lucy reruns. I got it from years of living , experience and from the Holy Mother Church.
There is quite a difference between a Muslim Prime Minister and a the Priesthood of Jesus Christ. Have you noticed how few boys elect to be Altar Boys since so many Churches allowed girls to be “Altar Boys”. It is human nature. You dont see many boys joining the Girl Scouts do you? As far your red herring, you threw that in because you didnt have anything of substance to say.
I was polite to you when I first posted on this thread. I told the truth and you don’t like it. I have a feeling that you and I are quite different. I will accept what The Pope and the Church has to say on this matter. I have a strong feeling that if a woman started to say Mass in our Church more than half would walk out in the first 2 minutes.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Yes and that discussion said exactly what I said.
There have never been female deacons.
There have been deaconesses.
A deaconess was not a female deacon.
While today we have a feminie word and a masculin word that express the same thing, like actor and actress, this is not the same as deaconess and deacon.
A deaconess was used in the ministry with women. As baptism was done by full immersion with a full body annointing of oil, the woman would assist the priest to help the woman being baptized to keep her modesty as it was done in the nude.
Also a deaconess filled the role that is today filled by uncloistered nuns. Uncloistered nuns did not appear until St Anthony Mary Zaccaria founded the Angelic Sisters of St. Paul in 1535. Up until that point all nuns were cloistered.
And lastly, a deaconess had no liturgical functions.
So it is not only wrong to say a deaconess is the same as a female deacon it is very misleading.
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RonWI
Guest
1 Corinthians 14:
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
How can a woman serve as a priest if she cannot speak?
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
How can a woman serve as a priest if she cannot speak?
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Steve_Andersen
Guest
Well I went to 12 years of Catholic school and no one told me women are “more emotional” for certain jobs.
And I’ve been through a few years of living myself and I’ve had the pleasure to know many capable women
You’re the one who brought up “a leadership position”
So there is no need to change the subject or throw up a strawman
Obviously since you made a blanket statement about men “naturally disrespecting” women in a leadership position in a discussion about the ordination of women you must think that the priesthood is a leadership position
That’s why I brought up those examples
No my church has plenty of servers…of both sexes
As well as plenty of lectors, Eucharistic Ministers
Single sex clubs and organizations have their place but to paraphrase you; there is quite a difference between the Girl Scouts and the Priesthood of Jesus Christ
So you admit to throwing it eh
Thank you, I realize that and I try to be polite back (I’m just talking here…you realise this is nothing personal. Please don’t confuse my stridency with rudeness)
it is not a matter of whether I like or dislike what you say, I just don’t find it convincing
You had some opinions about the behaviors of men and women
They may have been truisms or folk wisdom in there but truth?
The premise of this thread was, pretending the magisterial ban did not exist, why women should be ordained.
You offered up something about “that time of the month” and men naturally disrespecting women… Hardly convincing stuff. You didn’t even give examples
I offered real world examples of women in leadership rolls which you dismissed
Catholic2003 offered the Canon Law Society of America’s opinion on the possiblity of women historically being Decons
The Church herself has offered us countless examples of female saints
So apparently some women do have leadership skills and great spiritual and moral strength. Maybe not all…but then not all men have those attributes either
To me those strengths are key to being a priest
If a woman is ever saying Mass then that means that the Pope has allowed her to be ordained. I don’t know you but I would like to think that your allegiance to the Church is a little deeper than 2 minutes.
PS besides, think about the half who would stay…
kinda goes right along with what the Pope said about perhaps the Church becoming smaller.
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Philip_P
Guest
Well my two cents here…
I wouldn’t make as strong an argument as to say that I’m FOR women’s ordination. My position could be more accurately stated as I don’t find the arguments AGAINST it very convincing.
All the apostles were men, true, but all the apostles were also Jews and spoke Aramaic, and there were only 12 of them. Obviously not all precedents are equal. The argument that the apostles were men could be a supporting argument, but there needs to be further support for why their sex is important but the other precedents (language, appearance, ethnicity, etc) can be disregarded.
I find the argument that men are somehow more able to act “in persona Christi” than women less than convincing, too. After all, the Church is often imagined as the “Bride” of Christ, yet this does not exclude men from being part of the Church. Furthermore, we are all called to imitate Christ - women as well as men. What exactly is it that makes it only men who can act in persona Christi? I heard someone try to argue on biological lines once (“giver” and “receiver”), but that struck me as pretty poor science, especially in light of our knowledge of genetics (both parents must “give” DNA, as opposed to the medieval belief that the woman was just an incubator for the man’s seed).
Having said all this, I’m skeptical of those who claim a “right” to the priesthood. No one has a right to ordination, not even men. It is a calling. If a woman hears the call, though, why can’t she answer it?
Again, I don’t have any strong commitment to seeing women ordained, this doesn’t keep me up at night. If the Church insists on keeping women out of the clergy, though, I think it would help to develop far better arguments than those currently advanced.
I wouldn’t make as strong an argument as to say that I’m FOR women’s ordination. My position could be more accurately stated as I don’t find the arguments AGAINST it very convincing.
All the apostles were men, true, but all the apostles were also Jews and spoke Aramaic, and there were only 12 of them. Obviously not all precedents are equal. The argument that the apostles were men could be a supporting argument, but there needs to be further support for why their sex is important but the other precedents (language, appearance, ethnicity, etc) can be disregarded.
I find the argument that men are somehow more able to act “in persona Christi” than women less than convincing, too. After all, the Church is often imagined as the “Bride” of Christ, yet this does not exclude men from being part of the Church. Furthermore, we are all called to imitate Christ - women as well as men. What exactly is it that makes it only men who can act in persona Christi? I heard someone try to argue on biological lines once (“giver” and “receiver”), but that struck me as pretty poor science, especially in light of our knowledge of genetics (both parents must “give” DNA, as opposed to the medieval belief that the woman was just an incubator for the man’s seed).
Having said all this, I’m skeptical of those who claim a “right” to the priesthood. No one has a right to ordination, not even men. It is a calling. If a woman hears the call, though, why can’t she answer it?
Again, I don’t have any strong commitment to seeing women ordained, this doesn’t keep me up at night. If the Church insists on keeping women out of the clergy, though, I think it would help to develop far better arguments than those currently advanced.
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Exporter
Guest
ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS****Pope John Paul II Apostolic Letter On Reserving Priestly Ordination To Men Alone 1. Priestly Ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying, and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.
When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: "She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God’s plan for his Church."1]
When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: "She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God’s plan for his Church."1]
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Steve_Andersen
Guest
so basically you’re saying “we do it because that’s the way we’ve always done it”
they said they same thing about usury.
they said they same thing about usury.
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dennisknapp
Guest
Steve Andersen:
It will be smaller because of those who leave because the Church cannot change in regards to these issues.
Peace
I think what the Pope was refering to was a smaller Church because of the Church’s position on womens ordination, homosexuality, married priests, gay marriage, relativism, etc.
It will be smaller because of those who leave because the Church cannot change in regards to these issues.
Peace
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dennisknapp
Guest
Philip P:
The Church is not a democracy, it does not seek a vote, it does not call for the opinion of lay people.
The Church decides its positions based on three things: whether it is found in Scripture, found in the Tradition, and is not philosophically contradictory.
Women’s ordination cannot be found in either the Scriptures or Tradition, and it is not a contradictory of the two.
Therefore, the Church cannot change it–its hands are tied.
Peace
What people do not understand is how the Church comes to its understanding.
The Church is not a democracy, it does not seek a vote, it does not call for the opinion of lay people.
The Church decides its positions based on three things: whether it is found in Scripture, found in the Tradition, and is not philosophically contradictory.
Women’s ordination cannot be found in either the Scriptures or Tradition, and it is not a contradictory of the two.
Therefore, the Church cannot change it–its hands are tied.
Peace
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dennisknapp
Guest
Steve Andersen:
Refer to previous post.
Peace
Usury is not a proper example, it is comparing apples to oranges.so basically you’re saying “we do it because that’s the way we’ve always done it”
they said they same thing about usury.
Refer to previous post.
Peace
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pnewton
Guest
Steve Andersen:
Maybe this makes more sense: because God has always done it this way. In the Old Testament and the New, He called men for the priesthood. For the last 2000 years, He has called men for the priesthood. Being God, He can do as He pleases.
As far as leadership positions, I have no problem with women in key positions of leadership, even in the church. I am willing to follow. Heck, as far as I care, God can allow a woman to be Queen of Heaven.
Not a very convincing arguement, is it. When I think of all the stupidity perpetuated because of inertia.
Maybe this makes more sense: because God has always done it this way. In the Old Testament and the New, He called men for the priesthood. For the last 2000 years, He has called men for the priesthood. Being God, He can do as He pleases.
As far as leadership positions, I have no problem with women in key positions of leadership, even in the church. I am willing to follow. Heck, as far as I care, God can allow a woman to be Queen of Heaven.
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Steve_Andersen
Guest
sounds crazy enough to work
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John_Higgins
Guest
I have an observation. Until recently (13 or 1400s) one did not have to be a priest to be a cardinal. How 'bout female cardinals? Bet the Church has the authority to do that.
John
John
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dennisknapp
Guest
Please refer to post # 32.
Peace
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dennisknapp
Guest
John Higgins:
Peace
But a cardinal is a priest of a local parish in Rome and women cannot be priests.
Peace
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littleitaly
Guest
Steve Andersen:
If God wanted women to be ordained into the priesthood, He would have had them as apostles, and He would have told Moses to have Aran bring his daughters instead of his sons to work as priests. Women who think this way refuse to accept the Holy Spirits decisions made many years ago, this includes the time before Christ was born. This action will be destructive to the Church, mainly because we would be telling God that He is wrong for doing things the way he did in the past. Be it far from me to be one of those who questions God’s authority.
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dennisknapp
Guest
Or that Jesus “caved” into cultural norms in this one instance, but no others.
Peace
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