Those who always kneel for Holy Communion

[Mysty101]

Brendan:

NB,

What exactly is your ‘Poppycock’ refering to? Was it “No Bishop has the authority to override the Vatican?”

Is that your premise? That a Bishop does, in fact, have the authority to override the Vatican?

The Bishop is not overriding the Vatican. And it is not A Bishop—It is the Conference of Bishops, which was given their authority by the Vatican, and the Vatican approved their norms.

But I do wish to repeat–very few have objections to kneeling, if there are provisions, and the communicant has not been instructed to stand, such as at a TLM, or in a kneeling Parish. My objection is to kneeling when everyone else is standing. Regardless of the intention—it does call attention to oneself, and go against the call for a unified posture.

 

[fix]

Mysty101:

The Bishop is not overriding the Vatican. And it is not A Bishop—It is the Conference of Bishops, which was given their authority by the Vatican, and the Vatican approved their norms.

But I do wish to repeat–very few have objections to kneeling, if there are provisions, and the communicant has not been instructed to stand, such as at a TLM, or in a kneeling Parish. My objection is to kneeling when everyone else is standing. Regardless of the intention—it does call attention to oneself, and go against the call for a unified posture.

I was referring to priests who denied comunion and bishops who supported those priests.

 

[TNT]

If you were in the dioceses of these bishops would you just keep following and following and following…

Two weeks ago the Swiss Bishops Conference issued a paper recognising this situation (no one wants to be a NO presbyter) and officially permitting lay theologians to preach during Mass, in apparent contradiction of a Vatican edict of last year that only priests can deliver sermons.
Agnell Rickenmann, the general-secretary of the Bishops Conference, says the announcement is partly based on the reality of a lack of priests in the country. But he says it also reflects the independent thinking of the Church in Switzerland.

Wait, it gets better:
On the near horizon:

As the bishops began their five-day trip, Swiss Cardinal Georges Cottier told the Italian media that condoms could be permitted in certain cases.

The comments by the Pope’s theological adviser marked a shift away from the Vatican’s traditional hard line on contraception.

The issue is likely to be raised during the bishops’ visit to Rome, along with same-sex partnerships and the role of lay theologians in Swiss churches.

In comments reported on Monday, Cardinal Cottier said condoms could be a means of preventing the spread of Aids.

“In particular situations, for example the drug scene or where promiscuity is widespread, as in some areas of Africa or Asia, the use of condoms can be considered legitimate,” he told the Italian internet agency Apcom.

Cottier’s remarks, which echoed those of Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan two weeks ago, are being seen as a softening of the Vatican’s rigid position outlawing contraception.

Just keep following the bishops. They KNOW where the HS is going. No question.
And good luck to you.
Keep all that obedience and humility coming. You’re gonna need all you can muster in the coming months.

 

[D.O.M]

TNT:

If you were in the dioceses of these bishops would you just keep following and following and following…
Wait, it gets better:
On the near horizon:
Just keep following the bishops. They KNOW where the HS is going. No question.
And good luck to you. You’ll need it.

Amen TNT:clapping:
This illustrates perfectly why we are not obliged to be obedient to disobedience!

 

[TNT]

Nota Bene:

Poppycock.

You are illustrating a prime reason why "traditionalists" are often laughed at...

We understand why liberals laugh at Trads:
"The best liberal defense is a Personal Offense"

**And don’t stop laughing. The more the better… If they stop, we’ll get concerned that we may no longer have the Faith of our Fathers, and theirs!
**

People whine about liturgical irregularities and abuses (often rightly so), but they then promote other abuses because they know “better” than the Church…

I assume you changed the subject from Trads. Trads don’t promote ANYTHING new. That’s why they’re called Trads.

 

[pnewton]

D.O.M.:

This illustrates perfectly why we are not obliged to be obedient to disobedience!

Only if you are a Catholic, then we do. Jesus taught not to follow the *example *of the Pharisees, but to submit to their authority, since they sat in the chair of Moses.

 

[TNT]

pnewton:

Only if you are a Catholic, then we do. Jesus taught not to follow the *example *of the Pharisees, but to submit to their authority, since they sat in the chair of Moses.

AND, of course, the Pharisees insisted NO JEW join that “Jesus Sect”.
Saul was one of them. Clearly illustrates the JEWS were in disobedience.
According to that idea carried to it’s unequivical conclusion, There’d be NO Catholic Church.
**So, let’s all hear it for the modern Pharisees!
:clapping::tiphat:
**

 

[TNT]

pnewton:

Only if you are a Catholic, then we do. Jesus taught not to follow the *example *of the Pharisees, but to submit to their authority, since they sat in the chair of Moses.

AND, of course, the Pharisees insisted NO JEW join that “Jesus Sect”.
Saul was one of them. Clearly illustrates the JEWS were in disobedience in a very important matter, JEW APOSTASY.
According to that idea carried to it’s unequivical conclusion, There’d be NO Catholic Church.
**So, let’s all hear it for the modern Pharisees!
:clapping::tiphat:
**

 

[Brendan]

Mysty101:

The Bishop is not overriding the Vatican. And it is not A Bishop—It is the Conference of Bishops, which was given their authority by the Vatican, and the Vatican approved their norms.

The approved them with, and only with, the caveat that kneeling to recieve also be permitted.

So if a Bishop, or a group of Bishops attempting to forbid such a practice, then they do so in violation Rome’s instructions.

 

[pnewton]

TNT:

AND, of course, the Pharisees insisted NO JEW join that “Jesus Sect”.
Saul was one of them. Clearly illustrates the JEWS were in disobedience in a very important matter, JEW APOSTASY.
According to that idea carried to it’s unequivical conclusion, There’d be NO Catholic Church.

Sooooo, Jesus was wrong? Then Paul to was wrong, too. In Acts he apologized for insulting Caiphas, not realizing he was the high priest and desrving of respect.

For the Jews, prior to the New Covenant and establishment of the church, they were to follow the authority of the high priest, according to Jesus.

Also, such an important and central doctrine, such as salvation, does not compare to posture (or any discipline)

(or do you mean by NO catholic church the mistakenly named Novus Ordo catholic church )

 

[Marie]

TNT:

Keep all that obedience and humility coming. You’re gonna need all you can muster in the coming months

No problem. No danger I will kick over the traces of the Catholic Faith after all these years. We have been doing it for hundreds of years in my family, it has served us well…what’s a few more months.

Never have bought into the Protestant thought process of being my own Pope…not about to start now.

 

[Melissa]

I’m one who always kneels (unless I’m not at home), because in my parish we still have our altar rail (it’s made of Italian marble, and I don’t think it’s going anywhere short of divine intervention), and everyone who is physically able kneels to receive. (They also only teach the First Communion children how to receive on the tongue–after the first time, it’s up to the family if they want to teach their children to receive in the hand.)

I will admit that I vastly prefer kneeling, especially if I get a spot at the rail that the priest has just passed (so that I have to wait a minute or so), because it gives me a chance to get my thoughts re-collected after walking up. In parishes I visit where they stand, I just feel so rushed.

 

[BulldogCath]

Lets take this conversation one step further- what ever happened to genuflecting when passing the tabernacle (if you are lucky enough after Vatican II to even have one near the vacinity of the altar)? Did we all forget the blessed sacrement is there? The priests have totally stopped , even my Bishop , genuflecting, he bows or something.

And the church wonders why people have lost the faith, why they doubt the real presence of our Lord in the Eucharist-Look at this thread-people are actually AGAINST kneeling to take our Lord-but if they were told to sit on the floor at a Japanese restauarant-that is Ok, but to kneel-as it is not per the GIRM-NO WAY

Maybe we should change the GIRM, maybe us here who want to kneel, should take up our pens and demand that kneeling be the norm-but they cant allow that because in many churches the altar rails were ripped out so there can be no distinction between the laity and the Priest-and if you kneel-where would you kneel now???

I even just read that there is a movement to have the Priest sit in the first row, have the Mass said entirely by the Laity, and then call the Priest up just to do the consecration-and then he would go and sit down. This would make the Priest “as one” with the laity.

This is already happening in some churches and possibly at a church near you-keep pushing the envelope and see where it gets you.

 

[Marie]

Been pushing that envelope for years and years and years…It’s called pray, believe, sacrifice, be obedience and TRUST God to handle the change. Works for me. Been through the desert of garbage for years.

FINALLY have a reverent mass, a good and holy priest and a church membership who LOVES the Lord mightily.

Mouthing off and whining never was my style nor will it ever be. It smacks of the same old Protest style that lead many from Holy Mother church in days gone by. Obedience and humility are not for the faint hearted…I agree. In this modern age, everyone thinks HE/SHE has to be a rebel rouser to get things changed. Never mind they spend so much time gripping and complaining, they drive off more souls than they draw near to Our Lord.

 

[Mysty101]

Brendan:

The approved them with, and only with, the caveat that kneeling to recieve also be permitted.

So if a Bishop, or a group of Bishops attempting to forbid such a practice, then they do so in violation Rome’s instructions.

Not true—the GIRM was approved without the stipulations.

 

[Mysty101]

D.O.M.:

Amen TNT:clapping:
This illustrates perfectly why we are not obliged to be obedient to disobedience!

See how rediculous you are??? How do you expect to be taken seriously when you compare some outrageous abuse to an approved norm?

 

[Mysty101]

BulldogCath:

Maybe we should change the GIRM, maybe us here who want to kneel, should take up our pens and demand that kneeling be the norm-but they cant allow that because in many churches the altar rails were ripped out so there can be no distinction between the laity and the Priest-and if you kneel-where would you kneel now???

Yes, --that’s it—change the GIRM on your own authority. Yes, Jesus certainly prefers this arrogance to standing.

 

[jlw]

Mysty101:

Yes, --that’s it—change the GIRM on your own authority. Yes, Jesus certainly prefers this arrogance to standing.

All this is getting out of hand.

Jesus is probably more concerned with “the flow” of the line going up to recieve him than anything else! Hey, isn’t there something about “more efficiency” and “bad knees” in his Sermon on the Mount??

Seriously, folks, let’s put this to bed. I love you all. My parish priest allows kneeling. Your church prefers you stand. Either-either, neither-neither, let’s call the whole thing off.

Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ, forever and ever.

AMEN.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

BulldogCath:

Lets take this conversation one step further- what ever happened to genuflecting when passing the tabernacle (if you are lucky enough after Vatican II to even have one near the vacinity of the altar)? Did we all forget the blessed sacrement is there? The priests have totally stopped , even my Bishop , genuflecting, he bows or something.

Genuflecting before the tabernacle is getting rarer and rarer in most parishes I visit.

I suppose some might accuse genuflecters of being “holier-than-thou” or “trying to call attention to themselves” or “disrupting the flow” or some such. Unity of posture is the Main Thing and the Main Thing is the Main Thing and if the Main Thing is a perfunctory bow, then all must do likewise. Let all who genuflect be anathema. (And you medieval communion kneelers too. Shame. :tsktsk: )

Why even bother with a bow? After all, in most modern churches you’ll bow to the kiddie pool, ambo, organ/piano and cry room long before you’ll locate the tabernacle anyway. Who needs that stress?

 

[TNT]

pnewton:

Sooooo, Jesus was wrong? Then Paul to was wrong, too. In Acts he apologized for insulting Caiphas, not realizing he was the high priest and desrving of respect.

Of Course…RESPECT <> Obedience, which he did not offer.
He also apologized for persecuting what he saw as Jew apostates to the Jesus sect.
Many priests, ICEL member included, have likewise apologized for their misguided teaching of the Faithful. I pray more are added each day.

For the Jews, prior to the New Covenant and establishment of the church, they were to follow the authority of the high priest, according to Jesus.

**And then…Peter, a non-pharisee, told them to convert to the sect of Jesus, for which the pharisees tormented him for not “doing as they say” ie obeying them.
Note: Peter, a Jew, had no authority as a Jew pharisee, yet he was disobedient to his superiors. Many simply believed Peter, simple Jews, disobeying the seat of Moses. Maybe even the ones that heard Jesus command that you mentioned?

---

Peter had no Jewish authority to command in the eyes of the seat of Moses.
Peter’s only justification was “We ought to obey God rather than men.”
**A biblical principle that is as true today as then.
**The equivalent in these times might be: “Obey Faith and Charity rather than their suppression.”
**

Also, such an important and central doctrine, such as salvation, does not compare to posture (or any discipline)

**All the more serious was Peter’s disobedience, for it was not of discipline, but APOSTASY itself in the eyes of lawful authority of the pharisees on Mose’s seat. The simple Jew looking at that would be scandalized, especiallly if he heard Jesus’ command to obey all that the pharisees say.

**Further, ones does not kill in stealth by a pure dose of poison. But by pinches over time comingled with good nourisment. Start with diluting the more obscure, like disciplines, then the simple piety of the faithful, then the pillars of the faith. Death is just as certain.