Those who persecute Jesus will have eternal life

[jcrichton]

**
**

Ps.27: 2 When evildoers assail me, uttering slanders against me, my adversaries and foes, they shall stumble and fall.

Isa.9: 18 to 20 “For wickedness burns like a fire, it consumes briers and thorns;
it kindles the thickets of the forest, and they roll upward in a column of smoke.
Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts the land is burned, and the people are like fuel for the fire; no man spares his brother. They snatch on the right, but are still hungry, and they devour on the left, but are not satisfied; each devours his neighbor’s flesh

Isa.49: Behold, I have graven you on the palms of my hands; your walls are continually before me.

Mic.3: who eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them, and break their bones in pieces, and chop them up like meat in a kettle, like flesh in a caldron.

2 Sam.23:15 to 17 And David said longingly, “O that some one would give me water to drink from the well of Bethlehem which is by the gate!” Then the three mighty men broke through the camp of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem which was by the gate, and took and brought it to David. But he would not drink of it; he poured it out to the LORD, and said, “Far be it from me, O LORD, that I should do this. Shall I drink the blood of the men who went at the risk of their ives?” Therefore he would not drink it. These things did the three mighty men

Rev.17: 6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly. 16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the harlot; they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire,

is it just ME? I’m having trouble following this logic?

Hi, PJ!

…could you expand on what you mean?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[James248]

Those who believe the Eucharist is symbolic go against St. Paul himself:

For the Apostle Paul it was:

1 Corinthians 10:14-22

14 Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols. 15 I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18 Consider the practice of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? 19 What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22 Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

 

[PJM]

Hi, PJ!

…could you expand on what you mean?

Maran atha!

Angel

After culling the passages the OP gave, I just ME HERE} just can’t see evidence of the point that was highlighted.

I don’t see evidence of persecution of Christ as evident in these passages.

READ for example John 6:47-58 and 1st Cor, 11: 23-30 which are precisely clear in there teachings.

Maybe its just ME:shrug:

GBY

Partick

 

[jcrichton]

Those who believe the Eucharist is symbolic go against St. Paul himself:

Hi, James!

…that’s the beauty of “sola” Scriptura… a person could go it alone or interpret/determine where it is to be accepted as per context or where content does not matter or when it is meant as hyperbole or when it is literal or when to follow the particular teaching of “xyz” or when to ignore the collective/particular teaching of “xyz” or…

…it does seems amusing (at least to me) how St. Paul must go it alone when he veers off their theological arguments…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

After culling the passages the OP gave, I just [ME HERE} just can’t see evidence of the point that was highlighted.

I don’t see evidence of persecution of Christ as evident in these passages.

READ for example John 6:47-58 and 1st Cor, 11: 23-30 which are precisely clear in there teachings.

Maybe its just ME:shrug:

GBY

Partick

Hi, Patrick!

…I understand!

…it is difficult to interpret a meaning of persecution from these passages… but you know, if the Mormons could inject a whole distinct branch of “faith” from ‘other sheep not of this fold…’ well… hit me on the head with a coconut and call it a time machine!

Maran atha!

Angel
[/QUOTE]

 

[PJM]

Hi, Patrick!

…I understand!

…it is difficult to interpret a meaning of persecution from these passages… but you know, if the Mormons could inject a whole distinct branch of “faith” from ‘other sheep not of this fold…’ well… hit me on the head with a coconut and call it a time machine!

Maran atha!

Angel

Good point

Thanks and God Bless

Patrick

 

[CHRISTINE77]

**
**

Ps.27: 2 When evildoers assail me, uttering slanders against me, my adversaries and foes, they shall stumble and fall.

Isa.9: 18 to 20 “For wickedness burns like a fire, it consumes briers and thorns;
it kindles the thickets of the forest, and they roll upward in a column of smoke.
Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts the land is burned, and the people are like fuel for the fire; no man spares his brother. They snatch on the right, but are still hungry, and they devour on the left, but are not satisfied; each devours his neighbor’s flesh

Isa.49: Behold, I have graven you on the palms of my hands; your walls are continually before me.

Mic.3: who eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them, and break their bones in pieces, and chop them up like meat in a kettle, like flesh in a caldron.

2 Sam.23:15 to 17 And David said longingly, “O that some one would give me water to drink from the well of Bethlehem which is by the gate!” Then the three mighty men broke through the camp of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem which was by the gate, and took and brought it to David. But he would not drink of it; he poured it out to the LORD, and said, “Far be it from me, O LORD, that I should do this. Shall I drink the blood of the men who went at the risk of their ives?” Therefore he would not drink it. These things did the three mighty men

Rev.17: 6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly. 16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the harlot; they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire,

is it just ME? I’m having trouble following this logic?

I’m having trouble following this entire thread! What are we talking about?

 

[GLam8833]

My understanding of Scriptures tells me
that when Jesus INVITES those who came
and Attacked and Crucified Him to eat His
flesh and drink His blood to do so w/o cond-
eming them, He meant that the Gospel or
Good News of a New Covenant is being inst-
ituted here, a New Sacrifice, ONCE FOR ALL
is being referred to here.
Also, Paul when he heard Jesus say" “Saul,
Saul, why do you persecute Me?” He KNEW
that he was the worst of sinners!! I Tim. 1:13-15
That is why Jesus was the Perfect Victim, but
He will not leave those who persecute Him
by attacking the Church, as is made plain by
the Judgments of our persecutors in wrath in
the Revelation of St. John in the Last Days.

 

[jcrichton]

I’m having trouble following this entire thread! What are we talking about?

Hi, Christine!

The OP was countering Protestant understanding of Jesus’ Command that we (Believers) must eat His Body (flesh) and drink His Blood… the argument proposed that there is Biblical usage allegory which use the terms “eat”/“devour” and “drink” as imagery for persecution and attack (causing physical damage/assault)… and since, for the most part, non-Catholic understanding of Jesus’ Command is that it is allegory or figurative language, but not an actual invitation to the Breaking of the Bread (the Holy Eucharist), the query was placed to seek out clarity–was Jesus ignorant of Scriptures (and the use of that particular line of allegory) or did He actually intended to state that those who would persecute and assault Jesus would have eternal life?

…hope this helps!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Tuxedo_Mark]

I never heard “eating and drinking” as a metaphor for “persecute” before. That’s a new one.

But, yeah, I’ve always understood Jesus to be speaking metaphorically, like “eat my flesh” and “drink my blood” mean “believe in me” and “follow my teachings”.

Same with the Last Supper. “This is my body” (said after he broke it) was a prophecy of how his body would soon be broken. “This is my blood, poured out for many, etc.” was a prophecy of how his blood was literally going to be poured out soon.

 

[PJM]

I’m having trouble following this entire thread! What are we talking about?

I UNDERSTAND completely

The OP author has proposed a statement that IMO is unsupportable… relative to the Eucharist being some sort of persecution of Jesus. I just don’t get it:shrug:

GBY

Patrick.

 

[Assyrian412]

I UNDERSTAND completely

The OP author has proposed a statement that IMO is unsupportable… relative to the Eucharist being some sort of persecution of Jesus. I just don’t get it:shrug:

GBY

Patrick.

"I was rereading one of my books and came across this bit of information which prompted me to write this. Let me know what you think about it, especially our Protestant brothers and sisters.

In the Bible when someone talks symbolically about eating the flesh of someone or drinking the blood of someone what is meant is to persecute and assault them. For scripture references see Ps 27:2; Isaiah 9:18-20; Isaiah 49:46; Micah 3:3; 2 Sam 23:15-17 and Rev 17:6, 16.

So,** if the Protestants are correct** then Jesus actually said “whoever persecutes and assaults me will have eternal life”?

OR

Do they believe Jesus didn’t know the scriptures and what they meant?"

I bolded certain aspects of the OP’s post to try and help;

He is not claiming that the eucharist is some sort of persecution against Jesus but is pointing to other areas of the Bible where symbolically eating flesh or drinking blood refers to persecution. This is an argument he is bringing forth against the common Protestant interpretation of the text. He is saying, because this is what it means to speak of symbolically eating flesh or blood, that Jesus must be speaking literally as Jesus was clearly not inviting us to persecute him through the eucharist.

He is defending transubstantiation.

Hopefully I’ve explained it somewhat clearly

 

[jcrichton]

I never heard “eating and drinking” as a metaphor for “persecute” before. That’s a new one.

But, yeah, I’ve always understood Jesus to be speaking metaphorically, like “eat my flesh” and “drink my blood” mean “believe in me” and “follow my teachings”.

Same with the Last Supper. “This is my body” (said after he broke it) was a prophecy of how his body would soon be broken. “This is my blood, poured out for many, etc.” was a prophecy of how his blood was literally going to be poured out soon.

Hi!

…if we read the passages cited by the OP it is clear:

1 Yahweh is my light and my salvation, whom need I fear? Yahweh is the fortress of my life, of whom should I be afraid? 2 When evil men advance against me to devour my flesh, they, my opponents, my enemies, are the ones who stumble and fall.

(Psalm 27:1-2)

18 The land is set aflame by the wrath of Yahweh Sabaoth and the people are food for the fire. Not one spares his brother, 19b each devours the flesh of his neighbour. On the right side they carve and still are hungry, on the left they devour and are not satisfied. 19a Manasseh devours Ephraim, Ephraim Manasseh, and both hurl themselves on Judah. Yet his anger is not spent, still his hand is raised to strike. (Isaiah 9:18-19)

3 When they have devoured the flesh of my people and torn off their skin and crushed their bones; when they have shredded them like flesh in a pot and like meat in a cauldron, 4 then they will cry out to Yahweh. But he will not answer them. He will hide his face at that time because of all the crimes they have committed. (Micah 3:3-4)
Though I respect your opinion, as well as that of all non-Catholics, it is not based on Apostolic Teaching nor on Jesus’ Commands:

16 The blessing-cup that we bless is a communion with the blood of Christ, and the bread that we break is a communion with the body of Christ.

(1 Corinthians 10:16)

23 For this is what I received from the Lord, and in turn passed on to you: that on the same night that he was betrayed, the Lord Jesus took some bread, 24 and thanked God for it and broke it, and he said, ‘This is my body, which is for you; do this as a memorial of me’. 25 In the same way he took the cup after supper, and said, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Whenever you drink it, do this as a memorial of me.’ 26 Until the Lord comes, therefore, every time you eat this bread and drink this cup, you are proclaiming his death, 27 and so anyone who eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be behaving unworthily towards the body and blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:23-27)
It is quite difficult for “metaphor” to be elevated to such importance, do you not concur?

How bad of a Teacher must Jesus have been to lose most of His followers in on single Teaching (St. John 6) and then further the error by Teaching Saul such demanding Doctrine, which he, as Jesus’ Apostle would then Teach all Believers?

It is also important to note that the early Church was viewed with contempt and distrust because the rumors were that they were all some fanatical cannibalistic cult–something quite difficult to understand if the Church Taught: ‘metaphor, people, Jesus was not being literal… relax and enjoy the symbolic supper!’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PJM]

I never heard “eating and drinking” as a metaphor for “persecute” before. That’s a new one.

But, yeah, I’ve always understood Jesus to be speaking metaphorically, like “eat my flesh” and “drink my blood” mean “believe in me” and “follow my teachings”.

Same with the Last Supper. “This is my body” (said after he broke it) was a prophecy of how his body would soon be broken. “This is my blood, poured out for many, etc.” was a prophecy of how his blood was literally going to be poured out soon.

Your heading proclaims that you ARE a Catholic, yet you deny the very foundation of our Catholic Faith…HOW CAN THAT BE:shrug:

FROM OUR CATECHISM

1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.” [sacrifice]

1327 In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith: “Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking.”

My friend, if you’d care to learn WHY and HOW you can believe in the Real Presence please send me a private message and I will gladly share with you the JOY and the reason to be an Informed Practicing [believing] Roman Catholic

God Bless you

Patrick [PJM] here on CAF