Thou Shall Not Kill - Murder?

[Tony_B]

I recently attended a seminar by Ret’d LCol Grossman. Don’t let the title fool you; he is a psychology professor who did an excellent presentation on media and violence. (www.killology.com)

Anyway, at the end of the presentation he said that in the bible, (Exodus) the correct interpretation is "thou shall not murder,” not “thou shall not kill.”

He further explained that many soldiers and vets of previous wars find a great deal of comfort with this statement. It helps them believe their actions in wars were justified. (In context of all events)

I am seeking some guidance on this topic. Is this the correct interpretation? ThanksI

 

[DaveBj]

The Ten Commandments (including "Thou shalt not kill/commit murder) are in the 20th chapter of Exodus. Get your Bible out, blow the dust off it, start with chapter 21, and count how many times the Israelites were commanded to kill people under certain circumstances. Next, read on through the rest of the Torah, especially the book of Deuteronomy, and count how many times the Israelites were commanded to destroy whole peoples in war. This will require some actual effort on your part, but you will have discovered the answer to your question all on your own.

DaveBj

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Tony B,

God commands man to kill murderers. We know that God would never command man to sin. Some kills are murder and some are not. Some times God considers it a sin not to kill to protect the innocent.

Please visit Throwing Stones which studies Jesus and the Father’s will on when to kill.

**NAB GEN 9:6 **

"If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made."

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Tony_B]

Anyone,

My question or the guidance I was seeking in my original question wasn’t very specific. Would the correct translation from Hebrew to Greek or Hebrew to Latin or…. etc, be “Thou shall not commit murder.” Or is it “Thou shall not kill.”

Thanks for any guidance.

DaveBj

Well, thank you. With a response like yours I can see why so many people appreciate this website. Since you have assumed that I don’t read my bible, and that I have no idea the Israelites were commanded to kill people, I guess it’s safe for ME to assume I had no idea what I was asking.

Some of us look forward to read what others have to write b/c of their thoughts, opinions, beliefs, or of course their education. (or b/c they are a senior member here) We don’t look forward to harsh criticism. I guess I should have expected negativity here as well as out there. Perhaps of course it’s my mistake.

thanks.

 

[Mike_Olson]

Tony B.:

DaveBj

Well, thank you. With a response like yours I can see why so many people appreciate this website. Since you have assumed that I don’t read my bible, and that I have no idea the Israelites were commanded to kill people, I guess it’s safe for ME to assume I had no idea what I was asking.

Some of us look forward to read what others have to write b/c of their thoughts, opinions, beliefs, or of course their education. (or b/c they are a senior member here) We don’t look forward to harsh criticism. I guess I should have expected negativity here as well as out there. Perhaps of course it’s my mistake.

thanks.

Please don’t assume all people on this forum are harsh. I help when I can and I don’t try to be mean. I hope this forum doesn’t get a bad name because of a few people who think they are being witty or such. Peace be with you!

 

[adnauseum]

Deuteronomy 5:17 “Thou shall not kill”

I understand that the Hebrew source used ratsach which means murder.

The Latin Vulgate reads:

*non occides

*OCCIDES is the second person future tense of OCCIDO.

occido, occidere means:

1. to strike down, strike to the ground; to beat, smash, crush.
2. to strike, cut down, kill, slay.

I would agree with the speaker you heard.

 

[Pug]

Yes, Dt 5:17 uses the word ratsach, but it can mean to slay/kill and not just to murder (deliberately). It can mean indeliberate killing like manslaughter by accident. That is clear with its usage in the whole cities of refuge (read all about it in numbers 35, especially around verse 25).

However, murder is a good translation in the 10 commandments, and some bibles actually translate it that way, as murder there.

Proverbs 22:13 is an interesting occurence of the word. It is the lion outside who will seemingly ratsach or kill the man.

Harag is a more likely Hebrew word for kill or slay. However, harag is the word for what Cain did to his brother Abel. Harag is also used in Lev 20:16 where a woman and an animal are to be killed.

Just some brief thoughts.

 

[DaveBj]

Tony B.:

Anyone,

DaveBj

Well, thank you. With a response like yours I can see why so many people appreciate this website. Since you have assumed that I don’t read my bible, and that I have no idea the Israelites were commanded to kill people, I guess it’s safe for ME to assume I had no idea what I was asking.

Some of us look forward to read what others have to write b/c of their thoughts, opinions, beliefs, or of course their education. (or b/c they are a senior member here) We don’t look forward to harsh criticism. I guess I should have expected negativity here as well as out there. Perhaps of course it’s my mistake.

thanks.

Tony:

I regret the apparent harshness of my response. There has been much discussion about the death penalty on these forums, and I assumed, mistakenly, that this was the direction you were going in. However, I stand by my response referring you to the entirety of the Scriptures. It should be obvious, even without getting into the specific Hebrew terminology, that the intent of the commandment is to proscribe the taking of innocent life, and that the commandment does not apply in time of war or legal execution.

DaveBj

 

[Kevin_Walker]

This is a good thread.

I was taught all my life as a Catholic that the 6th commandment was: Thou shalt not Kill.

When I spoke to some of my Jewish buddies about this, they quickly corrected me in mid-question saying; “murder”.

Since more than one practitioner of the Jewish faith has immediately replied ‘murder’ rather than ‘kill’, this placed me in a bit of a quandary.

In my independent research, the Hebrew word “ratsach” has been translated as “kill” in the Christian Bibles. Yet as an absolute law it is impossible to put into practice since animals are slaughtered on a daily basis and you cannot win a war without killing.

I then discovered that “ratsach” has also been translated as “murder”. I hate to be as inconsistant as the Islam’s Shari’a Law that is subjectively applied, so the 6th commandment needs to have a definitive interpretation by the Vatican to avoid any ambiguity in application.

 

[Pug]

Kevin Walker:

In my independent research, the Hebrew word “ratsach” has been translated as “kill” in the Christian Bibles.

This inspired me go look it up at the specific instance in the 10 commandments. The NIV, NASB, NRSV, all of which are Christian, do translate it “murder” there. It would take more work to figure out if they use the translation of murder or kill in the other places that ratsach happens…at least with the NRSV they don’t use murder for it in 1Kings21:19, but in lots of places the word murder is used for it in the three I mentioned. I’m NOT arguing with you, I just thought I’d look for examples. I’m sure the KJV, does say Kill there, so there can be no argument to this. (Well, that is so long as a stray lurker doesn’t bring up the misprinted bible that said thou shalt kill.):nope:

We do have lots of tradition about how to interpret that commandment, as I think Kevin is alluding to. So many catechisms are literally partly organized by the 10 commandments, so one might want to look under that heading in them. Start at CCC 2258 under the heading, “the fifth commandment”. Or for fun, try the catechism from the Council of Trent, here.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello All,

Moses came down Mt. Sini with God’s commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill inscribed on stone tablets. Because the people were wickedly out of control, God through Moses commands the Levites to kill in order to bring the flock under control. Because the Levites obeyed God on this day, they became special ministers to the Lord.

God through Mosses gave us the commands to love God, love neighbor, take no revenge and Thou Shalt Not Kill and Moses kills to protect God’s flock.

Do we agree that Moses knew God’s commandment he carried down Mt Sini was against murder and not against all kills?

**NAB EXO 32:7 **

With that, the LORD said to Moses, “Go down at once to your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt, for they have become depraved. They have soon turned aside from the way I pointed out to them, making for themselves a molten calf and worshiping it, sacrificing to it and crying out, ‘This is your God, O Israel, who brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ I see how stiffnecked this people is,” continued the LORD to Moses. “Let me alone, then, that my wrath may blaze up against them to consume them. Then I will make of you a great nation.”

But Moses implored the LORD, his God, saying, “Why, O LORD, should your wrath blaze up against your own people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with such great power and with so strong a hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent he brought them out, that he might kill them in the mountains and exterminate them from the face of the earth’? Let your blazing wrath die down; relent in punishing your people. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, and how you swore to them by your own self, saying, ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky; and all this land that I promised, I will give your descendants as their perpetual heritage.’” So the LORD relented in the punishment he had threatened to inflict on his people. Moses then turned and came down the mountain with the two tablets that were written on both sides, front and back; tablets that were made by God, having inscriptions on them that were engraved by God himself.

When Moses realized that, to the scornful joy of their foes, Aaron had let the people run wild, he stood at the gate of the camp and cried,** “Whoever is for the Lord, let him come to me!” All the Levites then rallied to him, and he told them, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Put your sword on your hip everyone of you! Now go up and down the camp, from gate to gate, and slay your own kinsmen, your friends and neighbors!” The Levites carried out the command of Moses, and theat day there fell about three thousand of the people. **Then Moses said, "Today you have been dedicated to the LORD, for you were against your own sons and kinsmen, to bring a blessing upon yourselves this day."
**NAB DEU 6:4 The great commandment. **

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is out God, the LORD alone! Therefore you shall love the LORD, you God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength.**NAB LEV 19:18 **

“Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow country men. You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” **NAB EXO 20:13 **

“You shall not kill.” Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Pug, your analysis of the etymology of the Hebrew words retzakh and harogue is pretty food. We (orthodox Jews) have always understood the use retzakh in the 10 Commandments in both Exodus & Deuteronomy to mean felony murder. Retzakh is a narrower, more focused term than harogue, the latter being (more or less) the generic Hebrew word for “kill.”

Tony B., look at the dying King David’s exhortation to Solomon in I Kings 2:5.

Moreover you know also what Joab the son of Zeruiah did to me, [and] what he did to the two captains of the hosts of Israel, unto Abner the son of Ner, and unto Amasa the son of Jether, whom he slew, and shed the blood of war in peace, and put the blood of war upon his girdle that [was] about his loins, and in his shoes that [were] on his feet.

King David is reminding his son that Joab’s killing of Abner & Amasa was cold-blooded murder (i.e. he “shed the blood of war in peace”); had he killed either on the battlefield, he would not be culpable. (Abner’s killing of Joab’s younger brother Ashael was legitimate self-defense for which Joab could not hold Abner culpable.)

Be well!

ssv

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Pug:

This inspired me go look it up at the specific instance in the 10 commandments. The NIV, NASB, NRSV, all of which are Christian, do translate it “murder” there. It would take more work to figure out if they use the translation of murder or kill in the other places that ratsach happens…at least with the NRSV they don’t use murder for it in 1Kings21:19, but in lots of places the word murder is used for it in the three I mentioned. I’m NOT arguing with you, I just thought I’d look for examples. I’m sure the KJV, does say Kill there, so there can be no argument to this. (Well, that is so long as a stray lurker doesn’t bring up the misprinted bible that said thou shalt kill.):nope:

We do have lots of tradition about how to interpret that commandment, as I think Kevin is alluding to. So many catechisms are literally partly organized by the 10 commandments, so one might want to look under that heading in them. Start at CCC 2258 under the heading, “the fifth commandment”. Or for fun, try the catechism from the Council of Trent, here.

Thanks for mentioning the ‘Fifth’ Commandment, because that is what I remember it being, so to be on the safe side I looked it up on several places on the internet and its all coming up - The VI Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Honor Thy Father and Mother is now numbered 5. So not to digress or start a different thread, when did this change take place?

But I am still finding “Thou Shalt Not Kill” in all the bible references (Ex 20:13) on all the search engines I am reviewing.

 

[Pug]

Kevin Walker:

Thanks for mentioning the ‘Fifth’ Commandment, because that is what I remember it being, so to be on the safe side I looked it up on several places on the internet and its all coming up - The VI Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Honor Thy Father and Mother is now numbered 5. So not to digress or start a different thread, when did this change take place?

But I am still finding “Thou Shalt Not Kill” in all the bible references (Ex 20:13) on all the search engines I am reviewing.

Hmmm. I think the Greek Fathers used one numbering for the 10 commandments (actually the 10 words or Decalogue) and the Latin after Augustine used the one we know. Also Jewish groups use parents as number 5 like the Greek Fathers did. So some Protestant goups number then one way, and some the other. A check of the internet should bring up at least two answers depending on what denomination you hit. Probably most of them go with the numbering that does not match the one we know. However, I think Lutherans match us, not sure.

To my knowledge, you can’t get the NIV (new international version, hugely popular version) or the NRSV (new revised standard version) online as they are still under copyright. You can get the JPS TNK (Jewish Publication Society OT version) here. You can also get the NASB (new american standard bible) a Protestant translation here. Also the NET bible here. These three are online and do use murder. The DR uses kill. Oh, I was using Dt 5:17 for my checks, but I doubt it matters.

BTW, the numbering of the Decalogue is one of those arguments you can get into with a non-Catholic and they might charge that Catholics have been hiding a commandment (that would be the idolatry one) with their numbering.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Thou Shalt not have strange Gods before me - is the idolotry commandment I learned as a (Roman) Catholic.

Pug:

Hmmm. I think the Greek Fathers used one numbering for the 10 commandments (actually the 10 words or Decalogue) and the Latin after Augustine used the one we know. Also Jewish groups use parents as number 5 like the Greek Fathers did. So some Protestant goups number then one way, and some the other. A check of the internet should bring up at least two answers depending on what denomination you hit. Probably most of them go with the numbering that does not match the one we know. However, I think Lutherans match us, not sure.

To my knowledge, you can’t get the NIV (new international version, hugely popular version) or the NRSV (new revised standard version) online as they are still under copyright. You can get the JPS TNK (Jewish Publication Society OT version) here. You can also get the NASB (new american standard bible) a Protestant translation here. Also the NET bible here. These three are online and do use murder. The DR uses kill. Oh, I was using Dt 5:17 for my checks, but I doubt it matters.

BTW, the numbering of the Decalogue is one of those arguments you can get into with a non-Catholic and they might charge that Catholics have been hiding a commandment (that would be the idolatry one) with their numbering.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Tony B.:

I recently attended a seminar by Ret’d LCol Grossman. Don’t let the title fool you; he is a psychology professor who did an excellent presentation on media and violence. (www.killology.com)

Anyway, at the end of the presentation he said that in the bible, (Exodus) the correct interpretation is "thou shall not murder,” not “thou shall not kill.”

He further explained that many soldiers and vets of previous wars find a great deal of comfort with this statement. It helps them believe their actions in wars were justified. (In context of all events)

I am seeking some guidance on this topic. Is this the correct interpretation? ThanksI

Try this for starters:​

• Lev 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
• Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them.
• Lev 24:23 And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.
• Num 14:10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.
• Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
• 1Sa 15:7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah [until] thou comest to Shur, that [is] over against Egypt.
• 1Sa 15:8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
• 1Sa 15:32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.
• 1Sa 15:33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and many other books show that the commandment did not prohibit the infliction of death by stoning or burning, massacre, and other means. And that the death penalty was explicitly required, for many different offences.

If only people who quote Exodus 20 against the DP would bother to read Exodus 32 - did Moses let off the worshippers of the Golden Calf ? No - he killed 3,000 of them. Then he went up Sinai again and got the Law renewed. ##

 

[Pug]

Kevin Walker:

Thou Shalt not have strange Gods before me - is the idolotry commandment I learned as a (Roman) Catholic.

I learned that one too. The Protestant versions often list number 1 as the strange gods and number 2 as no graven images. See, they list two commandments, the second of which is the type of idolatry that Catholics are often (falsely) accused of. (Latin) Catholics list them together under the first commandment, making number 2 be the Lord’s name in vain. This annoys some people out there (not me). We all get back in sync at the end with covet. We have both 9 and 10 be covet: wife and stuff. Protestant has one covet, number 10.

I don’t know how non-Latin Catholics typically list them.

 

[hungry]

I don’t think anyone hit on the true reason why God in His Wisdom would tell the Israelites to kill those whose land they were to possess.

It is pretty basic and anyone even a child can understand. God is to be worshipped and Him alone. There is no god beside Him. The pagans worshipped everything but Him and so He commanded they be destroyed. If you read the Old Testament they were instructed to anihilate them all or else the Israelites would fall into idolatry. What happened? They didn’t obey and look what disobedience got them!

Praise the Lord the remnant will be saved. God has always had His faithful remnant of Jew and Gentile believers, and some of us are joined in this age of GRACE.

The New Testament teaches the same thing but now, God has given His Holy Spirit; we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers, not through marriage or any other relationship. We are not to be spotted with the world and the lusts thereof. The Scriptures are full of the warnings both Old (given for our learning) and New Testaments.

 

[Neo_Canaan]

not just the lust, but also the greed and violence as well. And cowardice too.

 

[trogiah]

Consider the following from Chapter 5 of Matthew first from the NIV

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother**(“http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresou...ok_id=47&version1=31&tp=28&c=5#fen-NIV-23257b”)]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,c]’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

And the same verses from the New American Bible

"You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’
22 17 But I say to you, whoever is angry 18 with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.

As we can see, the different translations have our Lord quoted with two different words but as the commandment is being clarified (as Jesus does for several commandments in the Sermon on the Mount) he points to the motivation behind the killing (murdering) as being the problem. Anger and contempt for another person are the problem. Killing - however you call it - for those reasons are serious transgressions.

Killing out of fear, self-defense, the protection of the innocent do not seem to be the focus of this commandment.

Jim