Thou shall not kill or murder?

[itullian]

Why does the church and Bible say kill when murder makes much more sense?

murder is much more specific.
ie self defense, war,
animals, etc.

can’t understand that
shouldn’t it be changed to murder?

 

[AlexPetrosPio]

It actually is “Thou shall not murder.”

 

[bzkoss236]

well, murder is defined as the killing of one human by another. So it’s man on man killing. Since animals are not human, they would not technically fall under murder.

 

[jilly4ski]

well, murder is defined as the killing of one human by another. So it’s man on man killing. Since animals are not human, they would not technically fall under murder.

Actually murder is traditionally defined as the unlawful killing of a human being (at least in common law, though that often adds, with malice aforethought) and that indeed makes the most sense, even in the Church’s view.

 

[itullian]

It actually is “Thou shall not murder.”

where?

 

[bzkoss236]

It actually is “Thou shall not murder.”

where?

Some bible translations have it as such. I can’t think of which ones off the top of my head, but I know I’ve seen it before. Note that it was probably a Protestant translation. Look at the 10 Commandments passages on biblegateway.com and try the different translations. One of them might have it.

Actually murder is traditionally defined as the unlawful killing of a human being (at least in common law, though that often adds, with malice aforethought) and that indeed makes the most sense, even in the Church’s view.

More to the point of what I meant, thank you for the clarification.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Why does the church and Bible say kill when murder makes much more sense?

murder is much more specific.
ie self defense, war,
animals, etc.

can’t understand that
shouldn’t it be changed to murder?

While maybe you could argue that it makes more sense, “murder” would be an erroneous translation of the underlying Hebrew verb.

The Hebrew verb used here: רצח means to kill, as in one human killing another. Murder is the unlawful killing of one human by another under particular circumstances defined by law. If one were to translate the verb רצח as “murder,” such a translation would render other verses such as Numbers 35:27 nonsensical, because then execution at the hands of the lawful executioner would also have to be viewed as “murder,” which by definition cannot stand since the executioner is performing a lawful act.

 

[itullian]

While maybe you could argue that it makes more sense, “murder” would be an erroneous translation of the underlying Hebrew verb.

The Hebrew verb used here: רצח means to kill, as in one human killing another. Murder is the unlawful killing of one human by another under particular circumstances defined by law. If one were to translate the verb רצח as “murder,” such a translation would render other verses such as Numbers 35:27 nonsensical, because then execution at the hands of the lawful executioner would also have to be viewed as “murder,” which by definition cannot stand since the executioner is performing a lawful act.

but"thou shalt not kill" makes no sense either.

war, self defense, animals, etc…

 

[thistle]

but"thou shalt not kill" makes no sense either.

war, self defense, animals, etc…

Hebraic Insight…

The Jewish sages note that the word “ratsakh” applies only to illegal killing (e.g., premeditated murder or manslaughter) — and is never used in the administration of justice or for killing in war.

Since man is made in the image of God, his life is infinitely precious — only God Himself has the right to give and take life. In the Mishnah it is written, “Why was only one man (i.e., Adam) created by God? — to teach that whoever takes a single life destroys thereby a whole world.”

But murder can be figurative as well as literal. The Talmud notes that shaming another publicly is like murder, since the shame causes the blood to leave the face. Moreover, gossip or slander are considered murderous to the dignity of man. The Pirkei Avot (Ethics of the Fathers) states, “The evil tongue slays three persons: the utterer of the evil, the listener, and the one spoken about…” The Lord Jesus also linked the ideas of our words and attitudes with murder (see Matt. 15:19).

 

[Ron_Conte]

Murder is defined by the Magisterium, I would say infallibly, in Evangelium Vitae n. 57:

"Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that** the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human bein**g is always gravely immoral. This doctrine, based upon that unwritten law which man, in the light of reason, finds in his own heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is reaffirmed by Sacred Scripture, transmitted by the Tradition of the Church and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

“The deliberate decision to deprive an innocent human being of his life is always morally evil and can never be licit either as an end in itself or as a means to a good end. It is in fact a grave act of disobedience to the moral law, and indeed to God himself, the author and guarantor of that law; it contradicts the fundamental virtues of justice and charity.”

The Commandment is You shall not murder. But the ideal is You shall not kill. We should strive for a society that does not kill any human person: a society without war or grave crimes.

The Greek and Latin text of Matthew 19:18 actually says 'You shall not murder", rather than “kill”.

 

[Tyuiop411]

While maybe you could argue that it makes more sense, “murder” would be an erroneous translation of the underlying Hebrew verb.

The Hebrew verb used here: רצח means to kill, as in one human killing another. Murder is the unlawful killing of one human by another under particular circumstances defined by law. If one were to translate the verb רצח as “murder,” such a translation would render other verses such as Numbers 35:27 nonsensical, because then execution at the hands of the lawful executioner would also have to be viewed as “murder,” which by definition cannot stand since the executioner is performing a lawful act.

I believe the reason that it is translated as murder in most modern translations is to make the commandment unambiguous to modern readers. We both know that the executioner in Numbers is not violating the commandment, and neither is a soldier as they are both killing lawfully.

 

[R_C]

Murder is defined by the Magisterium, I would say infallibly, in Evangelium Vitae n. 57

The essentials that we need to learn in order to fulfill the Fifth Commandment is taught in the Catechism, here.

The focus is not so much on kill vs. murder, but on the fact that human life is sacred from the very moment of conception.

The “in brief” section clarifies that the commandment is not irrationally and blindly forbidding the use of deadly force; rather, it is orienting it towards the preservation of human life and the protection of innocents.

2320 The murder of a human being is gravely contrary to the dignity of the person and the holiness of the Creator.

2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.

 

[shaky]

The essentials that we need to learn in order to fulfill the Fifth Commandment is taught in the Catechism, here.

The focus is not so much on kill vs. murder, but on the fact that human life is sacred from the very moment of conception.

The “in brief” section clarifies that the commandment is not irrationally and blindly forbidding the use of deadly force; rather, it is orienting it towards the preservation of human life and the protection of innocents.

So RC Catechism 2321 states its OK to lawfully kill under certain circumstances.
Eastern Orthodoxy seems to teach you can’t kill under any circumstances. That even if you have been deemed to have Rightly lawfully killed the Aggressor and protecting the Innocent. You still have to go to confession over this. You are banned from taking holy communion for years. And Also you can never become a Bishop.

 

[R_C]

When you say Eastern Orthodoxy, are you referring to the Eastern sui iuris rites of the Catholic Church, or to the Orthodox Church that is not in full communion with the Catholic Church?

If you are talking of the former, could you kindly specify where is this taught? I am only familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church - which I believe applies to the Eastern rites as well.

If we are talking of the latter, then I see no point in further expanding the argument, for all communities that separated themselves from the Catholic Church have developed their own doctrines and teachings outside of Sacred Tradition. I only focus on what our teacher, the Magisterium, says on these matters.

The Church teaches that if you are in danger of death, or an innocent is, then your life and the life of the innocent(s) are to be preserved even at the cost of the life of the attacker. I would personally still confess this, simply because I cannot be fully sure that in a way or another I have not offended God, but I would not consider myself guilty of mortal sin.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Hebraic Insight…

The Jewish sages note that the word “ratsakh” applies only to illegal killing (e.g., premeditated murder or manslaughter) — and is never used in the administration of justice or for killing in war.

See Numbers 35:27, were this verb רצח/ratsach refers to the act of a legally authorized execution.

 

[shaky]

When you say Eastern Orthodoxy, are you referring to the Eastern sui iuris rites of the Catholic Church, or to the Orthodox Church that is not in full communion with the Catholic Church?

If you are talking of the former, could you kindly specify where is this taught? I am only familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church - which I believe applies to the Eastern rites as well.

If we are talking of the latter, then I see no point in further expanding the argument, for all communities that separated themselves from the Catholic Church have developed their own doctrines and teachings outside of Sacred Tradition. I only focus on what our teacher, the Magisterium, says on these matters.

The Church teaches that if you are in danger of death, or an innocent is, then your life and the life of the innocent(s) are to be preserved even at the cost of the life of the attacker. I would personally still confess this, simply because I cannot be fully sure that in a way or another I have not offended God, but I would not consider myself guilty of mortal sin.

I would not consider myself if it was mortal sin or venial sin. But i do read in numbers that Moses Commanded that the soldiers after a battle that have killed others had to spend 7 days outside the camp for cleansing.