Thought process of non Christians who use the New Testament

[Servant19]

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Dear Martin,

You often ask me to clarify things calmly (I’m rarely not calm, but anyway ) and yet when I do, things often get dismissed.

Would you mind answering the following question.

For a Baha’i, your answer is very important

“The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim, Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6) in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to himself.”

Can you give me a list of what the Church revers in those “ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings” which come from other religions?

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[Reuben_J]

One could write a book on what parts of the Baha’u’llah’s Revelation is supported by the Bible (and many have)

What is the point when there are also verses that contradict the Bible? Thus they cannot be from the Holy Spirit, for God does not contradict itself.

but I don't understand what you are asking me in relation to John 16:12. Are you asking me to give you Biblical evidence for Truths now revealed which were not revealed by Jesus??

The goal post is being shifted every now and then, there is no coherence to this discussion.
To answer your question, yes, something like that. The Bahai’s contention is that the Holy Spirit was not for the disciples of Jesus but for Bahai’s. Is that right? Because that what I was told. So I asked what was it that the Holy Spirit reveal to Bahai but not to the disciple and why.

If it wasn't revealed by Jesus, it wouldn't be in the Bible. It's the stuff NOT specifically revealed by Jesus which Baha'u'llah has now revealed for mankind to examine and put into practice...otherwise there would be no point to John 16:12.

I already mentioned there was no point at all but you Bahai’s insisted, no, the Holy Spirit did not tell the disciples enough, that revelation had to be given to Bahai. Forgive me, it is all confusing to my mind.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is heresy, to a Jew. (your post is almost word for word the same as the Pharisees :)  )

Just convince me. You be surprised I would be more open than the Pharisees.

I have to go now. I will check out later if there is anything concrete from you.

 

[Servant19]

What is the point when there are also verses that contradict the Bible? Thus they cannot be from the Holy Spirit, for God does not contradict itself.

Come on dear Reuben :sad_bye:

Let us be fair in our judgement.

You know very well that these seeming contradictions are due to man’s faulty interpretations.

You also know very well that the Jewish Rabbi can give you endless teachings written in the New Testament which contradict the Old Testament, probably starting with circumcision…does that mean that the New Testament is not of the Holy Spirit? Or does it mean the Rabbi has faulty interpretations??

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[TonyBS]

There is much beauty in here. I appreciate it for all that is of God.

Yes all that Promotes Unity in God was great reading, food for the Heart.

The day will come when the Church will offer a document that offers advice on Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i’s.

That day may not be far away

God bless all

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

The goal post is being shifted every now and then, there is no coherence to this discussion.
To answer your question, yes, something like that. The Bahai’s contention is that the Holy Spirit was not for the disciples of Jesus but for Bahai’s. Is that right? Because that what I was told. So I asked what was it that the Holy Spirit reveal to Bahai but not to the disciple and why.

No Baha’i would say that the Holy Spirit was not for the disciples of Jesus, Reuben
What the Baha’i Faith claims is that the Holy Spirit teaches and is authoritatively passed on UNTIL GOD SPEAKS AGAIN through another Prophet.

Let us look at the Jews. They were given the Law, and Moses spoke the Word of God, inspired by the authority of the Holy Spirit (Num 11:25) and the authority was passed on through an Apostolic Succession of their own. Is that authority still there today?

No…

That authority was removed, because God spoke again through Jesus.

The same thing is taught in the Baha’i religion. The authority has been removed from Christianity because God has spoken again through Baha’u’llah.

I hope and pray that this promotes a clarity of understanding for you

Just convince me. You be surprised I would be more open than the Pharisees.

I have to go now. I will check out later if there is anything concrete from you.

I’m not convinced that you are being sincere. I will persist to be of service to you and answer all the questions to the best of my ability. I hope and pray that your definition of “concrete” is fair and just

God bless you.

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[MartinJordan]

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Dear Martin,

You often ask me to clarify things calmly (I’m rarely not calm, but anyway ) and yet when I do, things often get dismissed.

Would you mind answering the following question.

For a Baha’i, your answer is very important

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Did you read the link?

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Martin, where are you plucking all this from ???

Your Sai Baba friend didn’t say “Don’t eat meat and you will have everlasting life” did he???

Proverbs 25:27 It is not good to eat much honey…
(should you be shunning this verse too?)

What you mean plucking? I’m using the New Testament. I think it is not clear to my friend and to you.

You seem unable to separate the sin from the sinner, nor the good words from the speaker.

If Hitler said “in God, all things were made with love” and at the exact same time the Pope said “in God, all things were made with love” who would be the Truth speaker? (just in relation to that sentence)

It’s not about sentences. The Spirit. Would Hitler have spoken about Grace and Truth? (Which is the Spirit)

What has the New Testament got to do with it?
You asked for authority today, I gave you Baha’u’llah.

If you asked me the question 2000 years ago, I would say “Jesus Christ” without having to ask “Jesus gave the Torah which people still read today?”

Doesn’t make sense…

Then it’s clear you missed the point about the New Testament. Authority and Tradition through the Holy Spirit gave the New Testament. So I ask again who’s the Authority that gave the New Testament for you to read?

And on top of that yet still I’ve not got any answer to which Bible Tony or you read?

MJ

There is much beauty in here. I appreciate it for all that is of God.

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So you attest to the Catholic Church hierarchy. I’m glad.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Did you read the link?

MJ

I was hoping to get the list from a Catholic so I can feel assured that Catholics actually understand their own Churches statements.



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[MartinJordan]

I was hoping to get the list from a Catholic so I can feel assured that Catholics actually understand their own Churches statements.



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That’s why I spoke about the Ark. I am in the Ark so I am in the bosom of my Church, where it is safe and ordered, steering me to Everlasting life.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

That’s why I spoke about the Ark. I am in the Ark so I am in the bosom of my Church, where it is safe and ordered, steering me to Everlasting life.

MJ

Thank you Martin

But the question was this:
Can you give me a list what the Church revers in those “ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings” which come from other religions?

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[Reuben_J]

Come on dear Reuben :sad_bye:

Let us be fair in our judgement.

You know very well that these seeming contradictions are due to man’s faulty interpretations.

I will level with you. If there is faulty interpretation, I want you to show me. Where and what it is?

So far there is no interpretation here. I am given John 16:12-13, and I just work on that, which is basic comprehension.

So where does it say or even imply that the Holy Spirit will speak to Baha’ullah?

You also know very well that the Jewish Rabbi can give you endless teachings written in the New Testament which contradict the Old Testament, probably starting with circumcision…does that mean that the New Testament is not of the Holy Spirit? Or does it mean the Rabbi has faulty interpretations??

Now you come out with another verses.

The Jews do not believe the New Testament. What are you trying to say?

But both are using the same scriptures, so we disagree on what were written. Christians do not share Bahai’s scripture. You are claiming the basis for Bahaism is to be found in the Bible. So tell me which and what in the Bible? I already told you, your reference to Jn 1612-13, is utterly out. Any neutral would be able to see that.

This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. **It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. **It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight.Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.

This is the passage you gave.

I already told you (in the other post) the first part, which I can see obviously, is untruth, heresy and do not following the teaching of the Bible, which I explained in that post.

Well, fair enough, you direct my attention to the underlined verses.

Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.

This is a claim. So what has that got to do with the Bible verses. Say, if I go along with that, it is still wrong, because its content is not in line with the message of the Bible, as I pointed out.

 

[Reuben_J]

No Baha’i would say that the Holy Spirit was not for the disciples of Jesus, Reuben
What the Baha’i Faith claims is that the Holy Spirit teaches and is authoritatively passed on UNTIL GOD SPEAKS AGAIN through another Prophet.

No such thing in the Bible. Show me where it is? Not Jn 16:12-13

The Bible did not say that (speak through another prophet). Bahai, yes, is saying that. But it is Bahai’s claim, well, belief.

Now, look here Servant. I have no problem with Bahaism as a religion. There are many religions that have their own belief and doctrine. But you people come here and claim to have your foundation in the Bible, and all I see is utter nonsense. I have not seen any concrete evidence or example of the Biblical verses that can support that claim. That is the reason why I take time to discuss with you, to find out, how viable your claim is.

Let us look at the Jews. They were given the Law, and Moses spoke the Word of God, inspired by the authority of the Holy Spirit (Num 11:25) and the authority was passed on through an Apostolic Succession of their own. Is that authority still there today?

No…

That authority was removed, because God spoke again through Jesus.

The same thing is taught in the Baha’i religion. The authority has been removed from Christianity because God has spoken again through Baha’u’llah.

Double baloney!!! Christianity is alive. Otherwise Jesus’ word a lie, that the Gate of Hell shall not prevail on His Church. So what are you talking about?

I hope and pray that this promotes a clarity of understanding for you

I can only say it is false understanding and false teaching as far as the Bible is concerned.

You can say it is Bahai teaching, of which I am fine with that, but do not tell me, a Christian, that your belief can be derived from the Bible. I would be untrue to myself if I should agree with you, God forbid.

I’m not convinced that you are being sincere. I will persist to be of service to you and answer all the questions to the best of my ability. I hope and pray that your definition of “concrete” is fair and just

God bless you.

I cannot force you to trust me. After all this is just a discussion, bottom line, we would just argue on what is on the table. And seeing how elusive you are, my opinion on you could develop into a mutual one. Look like you have an agenda of coming here. I cannot prove that, and Forum rule disallow me to presume on another poster’s intention, but since you said about me, I guess maybe I should return the compliment.

My saying that you could try me because I really want some concrete answer from you. Tel me where is it in the Bible that support your contention. Most probably you cannot convince me but that is because you have nothing.

God bless you.

 

[Servant19]

No such thing in the Bible. Show me where it is? Not Jn 16:12-13

The Bible did not say that (speak through another prophet). Bahai, yes, is saying that. But it is Bahai’s claim, well, belief.

Now, look here Servant. I have no problem with Bahaism as a religion. There are many religions that have their own belief and doctrine. But you people come here and claim to have your foundation in the Bible, and all I see is utter nonsense. I have not seen any concrete evidence or example of the Biblical verses that can support that claim. That is the reason why I take time to discuss with you, to find out, how viable your claim is.

Double baloney!!! Christianity is alive. Otherwise Jesus’ word a lie, that the Gate of Hell shall not prevail on His Church. So what are you talking about?

I can only say it is false understanding and false teaching as far as the Bible is concerned.

You can say it is Bahai teaching, of which I am fine with that, but do not tell me, a Christian, that your belief can be derived from the Bible. I would be untrue to myself if I should agree with you, God forbid.

I cannot force you to trust me. After all this is just a discussion, bottom line, we would just argue on what is on the table. And seeing how elusive you are, my opinion on you could develop into a mutual one. Look like you have an agenda of coming here. I cannot prove that, and Forum rule disallow me to presume on another poster’s intention, but since you said about me, I guess maybe I should return the compliment.

My saying that you could try me because I really want some concrete answer from you. Tel me where is it in the Bible that support your contention. Most probably you cannot convince me but that is because you have nothing.

God bless you.

It seems I unintentionally angered you.

However we can conclude that because Judaism is still alive and well and that they claim that the Holy Spirit is in them, what Jesus, Muhammad and the Bab and Baha’u’llah revealed was all “double baloney”

We should all have stuck with Moses

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[Reuben_J]

It seems I unintentionally angered you.

However we can conclude that because Judaism is still alive and well and that they claim that the Holy Spirit is in them, what Jesus, Muhammad and the Bab and Baha’u’llah revealed was all “double baloney”

We should all have stuck with Moses

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Is that all, that’s it? How convenient, to cry mummy.

Where is the beef? Where are the Bible verses? Are we discussing here so that you can show me a passage from Bahaullah? Thank you then.

 

[Servant19]

Is that all, that’s it? How convenient, to cry mummy.

Where is the beef? Where are the Bible verses? Are we discussing here so that you can show me a passage from Bahaullah? Thank you then.

Your posts are bordering on rude, but I will persist with gentle approaches to give you more concrete (slowly)

This is Jewish teaching.

"…the Scriptural records and the results of the study of comparative religion alike testify to the gradual unfolding of the divine powers in man by means of revelation; yet of all nations the Jewish alone rose with the claim of having received the words of the living God and Ruler of the Universe as a revelation for all times and all generations of men. Just as there are different degrees of prophecy among individuals, the highest degree having been attained by Moses (Maimonides, “Yad,” Yesode ha-Torah, vii. 2-6; idem, “Moreh,” ii. 45)
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12713-revelation

This of course stems and finds its origins in Deuteronomy 13:1, “Be careful to observe only that which I enjoin upon you; neither add to it nor take away from it”

Jesus obviously did this…He added and took away as He pleased and broke away from Judaism.

We should all have stuck with Judaism, unless of course, Moses’ word was a lie (above)

If you are looking for Biblical evidence and prophecy pointing to Baha’u’llah then I’m happy to start a thread for that

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[Servant19]

Then it’s clear you missed the point about the New Testament. Authority and Tradition through the Holy Spirit gave the New Testament. So I ask again who’s the Authority that gave the New Testament for you to read?

On what authority do you read the Old Testament Martin?

I’m baffled by what you are asserting here. Do you have authority to use the Old Testament as a means to prove to Jews that Jesus is the Messiah?

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[eddie_too]

here is a perspective that might offer food for thought, might not i suppose also.

Jesus tells us that He is the gateway for the true shepherds of His flock. He adds that intruders do not use the true gateway. they seek to enter His flock by scaling the walls created to protect the flock. Jesus said the true shepherds enter through the gateway.

so, where is this leading?

well, the way i understand these teachings of Jesus is that we will know His true shepherds by recognizing that they have become shepherds by entering through the gateway that is Jesus. Jesus set up a magisterium for His Church. He founded His Church on this magisterium that has Peter and His successors at the top, at the apex, so to speak of a pyramid. The magisterium is the walls that protect the Lord’s flock from intruders. Jesus made it this way intentionally for many reasons, far more than i or anyone else can realize.

those who attempt to intrude on the Lord’s flock are those who attempt to use the Lord Jesus while simultaneously not accepting the authority of the Lord’s magisterium. the only gateway is Jesus and the only true shepherds are those who encounter the flock through Jesus. we do not have the option of being with Jesus through the shepherding of those who enter through the gate while simultaneously imagining that those who do not enter through Jesus are legitimate shepherds of the Lord.

anyone who does not seek to shepherd the Lord’s flock by obeying the Lord’s magisterium, the magisterium the Lord created for the very purpose of shepherding His flock, is one of the intruder’s Jesus teaches us about. you cannot enter through the gate that is Jesus by denying the very means Jesus set up to protect His flock.

 

[eddie_too]

i understand that there are those people who believe that mohammed, bab and bahaullah are continuations of almighty God’s revelation even as judaism preceded christianity and was designed by God to allow Him to have a continuous supernatural presence among His created world and its creatures, eventually preparing the world for and leading the world to the salvific message of the Incarnate Word.

thinking that what God has chosen to do in creating the Chosen People and becoming the Incarnate Word through them, using them to advance His divine agenda of salvation, is supernatually continued in the same manner by sending mohammed, bab and bahaullah to the world is a flawed understanding of salvation history.

what makes this concept flawed? it is flawed because the continuity of supernatural revelation and God’s entering in to human history was accounted for by Jesus Himself when He created His Church and its magisterium. they, the Church and the magisterium, are the manner by which God (Jesus) established continuity for future generations of human beings. God did not interrupt the continuity He began with Abraham and continued through moses, david and the old testament prophets when He became man. instead He ensured that His presence in our history would continue through the gift of the Holy Spirit to His Church and magisterium.

 

[Servant19]

i understand that there are those people who believe that mohammed, bab and bahaullah are continuations of almighty God’s revelation even as judaism preceded christianity and was designed by God to allow Him to have a continuous supernatural presence among His created world and its creatures, eventually preparing the world for and leading the world to the salvific message of the Incarnate Word.

thinking that what God has chosen to do in creating the Chosen People and becoming the Incarnate Word through them, using them to advance His divine agenda of salvation, is supernatually continued in the same manner by sending mohammed, bab and bahaullah to the world is a flawed understanding of salvation history.

what makes this concept flawed? it is flawed because the continuity of supernatural revelation and God’s entering in to human history was accounted for by Jesus Himself when He created His Church and its magisterium. they, the Church and the magisterium, are the manner by which God (Jesus) established continuity for future generations of human beings. God did not interrupt the continuity He began with Abraham and continued through moses, david and the old testament prophets when He became man. instead He ensured that His presence in our history would continue through the gift of the Holy Spirit to His Church and magisterium.

So there must be at least 4 Gods then eddie, for the Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Nestorian Churches all claim the continuity of supernatural revelation and Gods entering into human history, (through Apostolic succession) yet teach different things.

Will the real God please stand up?

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[eddie_too]

moses said that Jesus would come, a prophet greater than moses.

Jesus and His initial followers were all members of the jewish faith. christianity was not the end of judaism. it was the fulfillment of judaism.

Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of judaism.

as usual, we still do not know what men added to make the Gospel of Jesus Christ more complete. joseph smith more or less created a new gospel. there is no objective concept of continuity between smith and Jesus.

mohammed received his teachings from a spirit. they were not derived in continuity with judaism and christianity. they came directly from a spirit.

the teachings of bab and bahaullah also do not reflect ANY CONTINUITY with christianity and judaism. they, the bab and bahaullah, may be seen as having continuity with mohammed, i do not know since that is not an area i have spent much time studying. however, as we know, mohammed has no continuity with christianity or judaism. his teachings come entirely from a spirit that visited him in the fifth (?) century. since bab and bahaullah claim continuity with mohammed, that claim verifies that they have no continuity with christianity or judaism.