Thought process of non Christians who use the New Testament

[MartinJordan]

This is a question that always needed clarification for me and I hope for others too. Why do non-Christians insist on the New Testament (in this day and age of the internet there are claimants all over) and then say Jesus is not God?

Yet, why is Jesus so important to them?

Thoughts? Comments?

MJ

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

They and their kindred spirits in the church are rainless clouds, clanging gongs, unprofitable servants. They like to moralise, keep people tied to their apron strings, and not equip the saints. We must be careful not to join them.

 

[TonyBS]

This is a question that always needed clarification for me and I hope for others too. Why do non-Christians insist on the New Testament (in this day and age of the internet there are claimants all over) and then say Jesus is not God?

Yet, why is Jesus so important to them? Thoughts? Comments? MJ

Dear Martin - The first thing to consider here that there is a Holy book that is the foundation of all these thoughts. All these books are considered to contain the Word of God.

It is also not anyone commenting that does not consider themselves as a follower of Christs Words. Yes referring here to the Revelations since Jesus the Christ. That is Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

These Book are used in exactly the same way the New Testament is used with the Old.

In reality The Old Testament is made clearer with the New Testament, both the Old the New Testament is made clearer with the Koran, Likewise the Old & New Testaments, the Koran, the Bayan are made clear with the Writings of the Baha’u’llah.

Thus Baha’u’llah has said that it is not wrong to call Jesus the Christ God and it is also not Wrong to call Him a Messenger of God.

It is wrong when it is argued about and in this case both are Wrong.

As a Muslim and as a Baha’i I can not Believe in God without Jesus the Christ. He is the way and the Truth and the Life, no one comes to god but through Him.

Hope that gives some thoughts for discussion.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

They and their kindred spirits in the church are rainless clouds, clanging gongs, unprofitable servants. They like to moralise, keep people tied to their apron strings, and not equip the saints. We must be careful not to join them.

What was the fruits of such a bigoted comment on a good question that all can learn from.

God bless purity of Heart to all that speak of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Hi Tony,

Yes that is the third kind and altogether excellent.

I should have said there are three kinds that I’ve noticed so far.

Sorry!

 

[eddie_too]

i do not understand why some people believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ needs the words of men to be perfected.

since i believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be complete and perfect, why would i turn to other men for more direction from God? or, in other words, what did Jesus not address in His Gospel that we need to know?

always there are two questions that usually remain unanswered in these threads.

first, what is lacking from the Gospel of Jesus Christ that makes it necessary for someone else (someone other than Jesus) to add to it or to complete it?

second, what words and deeds have other (men who are not Jesus) men given to us that are needed by us but not provided to us by the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

these are not complex questions. they do not require enormous numbers of words to answer.

 

[TonyBS]

first, what is lacking from the Gospel of Jesus Christ that makes it necessary for someone else (someone other than Jesus) to add to it or to complete it?

These passages only need to be posted in response to all you have said and then meditation required

John 16:12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.…

Regards Tony

 

[Reuben_J]

These passages only need to be posted in response to all you have said and then meditation required

John 16:12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.…

Regards Tony

Done. It had come to pass.

What do you get from this passage, bro Tony that was not fulfilled?

 

[TonyBS]

Done. It had come to pass.

What do you get from this passage, bro Tony that was not fulfilled?

Reuben - What is seen here is a reference to future Revelations of the Word, one of which was to be the Father.

Regards Tony

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben - What is seen here is a reference to future Revelations of the Word, one of which was to be the Father.

Regards Tony

What future revelation, bro Tony?

You seem to be quite lost. No, I am not downgrading your thought process.

You are plucking a verse, a sentence from a long speech/dialogue from Jesus when he was talking to his disciples, without taking into consideration what Jesus was talking about and why.

Treating a verse like that is like having to be lost in an abyss or in space, not knowing where you are or where the land or the wall is. I hope I am not talking like PJM, another poster who is quite good with the Bible, really.

I print here the whole passage, and then if you continue to read the whole Gospel, I hope you truly do, and then perhaps you come back, and tell me what it is all about.

God bless you.

 

[Reuben_J]

The World’s Hatred

18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant[d] is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all this they will do to you on my account, because they do not know him who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

23 He who hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 It is to fulfil the word that is written in their law, ‘They hated me without a cause.’ 26 But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; 27 and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning.
16 “I have said all this to you to keep you from falling away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. 3 And they will do this because they have not known the Father, nor me. 4 But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told you of them.

The Work of the Spirit

“I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5 But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your hearts. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convince the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

12 “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Sorrow Will Turn into Joy

16 “A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me.”

17 Some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and, ‘because I go to the Father’?” 18 They said, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We do not know what he means.” 19 Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him; so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, ‘A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’? 20 Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. 21 When a woman is in travail she has sorrow, because her hour has come; but when she is delivered of the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a child** is born into the world. 22 So you have sorrow now, but I will see you again and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. 23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name. 24 Hitherto you have asked nothing in my name; ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.**

 

[Reuben_J]

Peace for the Disciples

25 “I have said this to you in figures; the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures but tell you plainly of the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name; and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”

29 His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly, not in any figure! 30 Now we know that you know all things, and need none to question you; by this we believe that you came from God.” 31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? 32 The hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, every man to his home, and will leave me alone; yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me. 33 I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee, 2 since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. 4 I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do; 5 and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

6 “I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me, and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; 8 for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; 10 all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.[c] 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

 

[Reuben_J]

20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world has not known thee, but I have known thee; and these know that thou hast sent me. 26 I made known to them thy name, and I will make it known, that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

18 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples across the Kidron valley, where there was a garden, which he and his disciples entered.

 

[TonyBS]

What future revelation, bro Tony?

You seem to be quite lost. No, I am not downgrading your thought process.

You are plucking a verse, a sentence from a long speech/dialogue from Jesus when he was talking to his disciples, without taking into consideration what Jesus was talking about and why.

Treating a verse like that is like having to be lost in an abyss or in space, not knowing where you are or where the land or the wall is. I hope I am not talking like PJM, another poster who is quite good with the Bible, really.

I print here the whole passage, and then if you continue to read the whole Gospel, I hope you truly do, and then perhaps you come back, and tell me what it is all about.

God bless you.

God bless you Reuben

I have read The Bible front to back also refer to it often and passages from the Bible are quoted at Baha’i Devotional Meetings

I actually first read it to try to prove to my mother that Christ was not a God of a Trinity, But in the end after I compiled 4 pages of biblical quotes to prove this I realised it was pointless. If it was that obvious, then all could see this if they so wished. It is God that guides our hearts how God so chooses.

I did read the Whole chapter before I posted the quote. The meaning is clearer when one has read the Baha’i Writings, much the same that The Old Testament has meaning found from the New Testament.

This is the confusion, but it is also more than this.

A Baha’i has come to understand that Baha’u’llah who’s name in English means “Glory of God” or “Glory of the Lord” has come in the “Station” of the “Father”.

Thus when we read Biblical Passages we understand these to be references to the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and that this Revelation is from the Father, the Spirit of Truth.

This is why the Baha’is will have a different “Frame of Reference” when talking about the Bible, but as you can see our Love of it is no less!

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Since the New testament has authority for Christians, people hope to use the canon in the hopes of getting Christians to abandon Christianity. Many Gnostics did it, not because they thought the gospels had the same authority as what they were saying, but because they knew it’s authority for those who believe it.

Muslims do it when speaking to Christians, as do Bahais. If the New testament were just a collection of books which people thought ordinary, people wouldn’t do that. We can expect people to use the New testament so long as we use it. Naturally we in dealing with certain groups use their texts as well, though I think Christianity has a mind for exposing other texts of authority and not using them, there is a difference between the two.

Also Tony, your prophet is not the comforter, stop pretending he is, bahai have been refuted on this point many times here and never go further when shown they are wrong. The apostles received the comforter at Pentacost, who is the spirit who the world does not see but will be with them, Christ’s disciples. If your prophet is the comforter he’s 1900 years too late and Jesus is a liar.

 

[Servant19]

Done. It had come to pass.

What do you get from this passage, bro Tony that was not fulfilled?

Does the Church know ALL the Truth then Reuben?
Has the Spirit of Truth come and given ALL the Truth to the Church?

.

 

[Reuben_J]

God bless you Reuben

I have read The Bible front to back also refer to it often and passages from the Bible are quoted at Baha’i Devotional Meetings

I actually first read it to try to prove to my mother that Christ was not a God of a Trinity, But in the end after I compiled 4 pages of biblical quotes to prove this I realised it was pointless. If it was that obvious, then all could see this if they so wished. It is God that guides our hearts how God so chooses.

I did read the Whole chapter before I posted the quote. The meaning is clearer when one has read the Baha’i Writings, much the same that The Old Testament has meaning found from the New Testament.

This is the confusion, but it is also more than this.

A Baha’i has come to understand that Baha’u’llah who’s name in English means “Glory of God” or “Glory of the Lord” has come in the “Station” of the “Father”.

Thus when we read Biblical Passages we understand these to be references to the Revelation of Baha’u’llah and that this Revelation is from the Father, the Spirit of Truth.

This is why the Baha’is will have a different “Frame of Reference” when talking about the Bible, but as you can see our Love of it is no less!

Regards Tony

Tony, you gave us Jn 16:12-13, and when asked, you said it was future revelation.

I gave you the whole passage and asked you to read the whole Gospel (John) to understand its content. Unsurprisingly, your answer was expected, you knew them all.

I thought you would tell me what the passage was all about. You didn’t. I think, there lies the sting. Excuse the language.

You should not avoid giving me what you really think of the passage. It’s just being honest and transparent. Not that you are not, but it is futile if the point of reference is not clearly stated.

Now I am going to tell you this. Jesus in those verses did not speak about future revelations except for what would be revealed to the disciples. He did not say ‘you’ to them, and then meant it for Bahu’ullah or Muhammad who came thousands of years later. That is just basic comprehension.

Did you notice the last verse that I gave in the passage? What did it tell you? That is why complete reading of the text is very important rather than to pick a verse at random and expound on it without giving attention to what it was all about.

Muslims do this kind of things, perhaps because the Quran is arranged at random. Yes, they also say, read in context, but what context? It is not like the Gospel which is a narrative.

So actually you are conjuring something out of nothing from Jn 16:12-13.

I can understand that Bahaism needs to explain its belief but what you did with the Bible is utterly nonsense. Yes, we do have our differences with Protestants, but at least the differences are based on what is written in the Bible, not what that is not in there.

Please do not get offended. I do not know how else I can put this.

God bless.

Reuben

 

[Reuben_J]

Does the Church know ALL the Truth then Reuben?
Has the Spirit of Truth come and given ALL the Truth to the Church?

.

What truth, Servant? What other truth, other than the truth that is given to the Church, that the Church needs to know? Wouldn’t that would be superfluous?

Remember, Jesus warned us about false prophets? They would come in all shapes and sizes but they do not necessarily bring the truth.

So what truth?

 

[TonyBS]

Also Tony, your prophet is not the comforter, stop pretending he is, bahai have been refuted on this point many times here and never go further when shown they are wrong. The apostles received the comforter at Pentacost, who is the spirit who the world does not see but will be with them, Christ’s disciples. If your prophet is the comforter he’s 1900 years too late and Jesus is a liar.

Dear IgnatianPhilo - It is expected you would have this reaction, but what a Baha’i believes will not go away. Much like the Christian Faith has not Gone away for the Jews and the Muslim Faith has not gone away for the Christians and the Bahai Faith will not go away for the Muslims.

It should be considered we Love Christ with all our Heart and Souls and every time a Christian attempts to shed Christ in a disrespectful light is very upsetting. You will have to consider all the inferences to a diminished Christ are yours and not a Baha’is view.

We will continue to offer the Baha’i view if Eric allows is to do so. What I can safely say as the years roll on is that we as Bahai’s will only do it to foster an understanding of God that is Inclusive of all.

It is great you are a Lover of Christ and God

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Please do not get offended. I do not know how else I can put this.

God bless.

Reuben

God bless you Reuben

There is a lot in your posts, too much to answer.

You already know what the Bible passage means, I offered an alternate thought on one section you did not agree. Thus to discuss more would not be fruitful

I must say I am no Biblical Scholar, far from it in fact.

Can you consider that the Disciples of Christ also knew very little of the Old Testament, but were they not the apex of knowledge of its meaning by accepting Jesus the Christ.

This is one of the mysteries of God, that current human learning at the time of a new Revelation is mostly a barrier to the Truth. Those that think they are the Custodians usually are the first to reject.

This is a sad historical fact, we are all guilty of it our self is very strong.

God bless and regards Tony