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Reuben_J
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I would like to know too.
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TonyBS
Guest
I am sorry it is for you, nebulous, but consider this is how God always appears at first and it is how the Jews did indeed miss Jesus the Christ, the Old Testament warns mankind of these Spiritual Clouds as does the New Testament. I hope you do find clarity.
The Baha’i hold to all the Truth contained within the Old and New Testament. We have no conflict at all with the Word contained within the Bible. The key to understanding these books as foretold in Daniel and Opened in Revelation have been given by the Revelation of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
If we use these Key’s there is no more fear of having to be nebulous.
May God be with you always - Regards Tony
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Kaninchen
Guest
Could you point out where in the Tanakh (what Christians call the Old Testament) the warnings about Spiritual Clouds are?
How about demonstrating key use and showing us the more/less true bits of the New Testament. It’s obvious I’m not the only one who’s curious about this.
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TonyBS
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Sorry - I thought this would be known to you, this little bit is from the net, it is a good list
Cloud
The Hebrew so rendered means “a covering,” because clouds cover the sky. The word is used as a symbol of the Divine presence, as indicating the splendour of that glory which it conceals ( Exodus 16:10 ; 33:9 ; Numbers 11:25 ; 12:5 ; Job 22:14 ; Psalms 18:11 ). A “cloud without rain” is a proverbial saying, denoting a man who does not keep his promise ( Proverbs 16:15 ; Isaiah 18:4 ; 25:5 ; Jude 1:12 ). A cloud is the figure of that which is transitory ( Job 30:15 ; Hosea 6:4 ). A bright cloud is the symbolical seat of the Divine presence (Ex.29:42,43; 1 Kings 8:10 ; 2 Chr 5:14 ; Ezekiel 43:4 ), and was called the Shechinah (q.v.). Jehovah came down upon Sinai in a cloud ( Exodus 19:9 ); and the cloud filled the court around the tabernacle in the wilderness so that Moses could not enter it ( Exodus 40:34 Exodus 40:35 ). At the dedication of the temple also the cloud “filled the house of the Lord” ( 1 Kings 8:10 ). Thus in like manner when Christ comes the second time he is described as coming “in the clouds” ( Matthew 17:5 ; 24:30 ; Acts 1:9 Acts 1:11 ). False teachers are likened unto clouds carried about with a tempest ( 2 Peter 2:17 ). The infirmities of old age, which come one after another, are compared by Solomon to “clouds returning after the rain” (Eccl 12:2 ). The blotting out of sins is like the sudden disappearance of threatening clouds from the sky ( Isaiah 44:22 ).
Cloud, the pillar of, was the glory-cloud which indicated God’s presence leading the ransomed people through the wilderness ( Exodus 13:22 ; Exodus 33:9 Exodus 33:10 ). This pillar preceded the people as they marched, resting on the ark ( Exodus 13:21 ; 40:36 ). By night it became a pillar of fire ( Numbers 9:17-23 ).
Thus the Clouds of the Old and New Testament are Spiritual, referring to in quite a few locations, as to humanities Spiritual Blindness
My List - Not official Baha’i view
1 Key - One God
2 Key - All Manifestations/Prophets are from God
3 Key Mankind is One
Use those Keys and all Biblical Passages have a new Meaning, no longer is one trying to Prove God Wrong, but just trying to understand how we goT it all so wrong and it was in the Word from the Beginning of Time.Of course there are many keys as to what the Symbolism means as well, but IMHO without the First 3 Keys, one can not open the Book to start to try to understand the remainder.
Regards Tony
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Kaninchen
Guest
Nice list about clouds but not about warnings. It’s the warnings I was asking about.
My List - Not official Baha’i view
How are you guys on Joseph Smith and the Mormons?
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TonyBS
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Based on the Revelation of Jesus the Christ. Not a direct revelation from God.
That they are too subject to the current “Judgement Day” as we all are.
The first question I will try to find a bit of time, running out today
Regards Tony
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Kaninchen
Guest
What about the Golden Plates, the prophet Mormon and the angel Moroni?
You said: “All Manifestations/Prophets are from God,” but I expect that there’s some discernment as to who qualifies as a Manifestation/Prophet and it would be interesting to know how the discernment works.
You don’t need to hurry, I’m Jewish, I’m not online on Shabbat (Friday evening/Saturday evening).The first question I will try to find a bit of time, running out today
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TonyBS
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This is the warning
King James Bible : Zephaniah1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
2:1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; 2:2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD’s anger come upon you.
2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’s anger.
2:4 For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up.
2:5 Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the LORD is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant.
2:6 And the sea coast shall be dwellings and cottages for shepherds, and folds for flocks.
2:7 And the coast shall be for the remnant of the house of Judah; they shall feed thereupon: in the houses of Ashkelon shall they lie down in the evening: for the LORD their God shall visit them, and turn away their captivity.
2:8 I have heard the reproach of Moab, and the revilings of the children of Ammon, whereby they have reproached my people, and magnified themselves against their border.
2:9 Therefore as I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them.
2:10 This shall they have for their pride, because they have reproached and magnified themselves against the people of the LORD of hosts…3:14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
3:15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
3:16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.
3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.
3:18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.
3:19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.
There is much in this passage, very much
the Lord of Hosts is Baha’u’llah reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/
Call out to Zion (Sorry a short add to start) youtube.com/watch?v=LNCe6hM1liY
Regards Tony
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TonyBS
Guest
The new Testament has all the requirements you are seeking to Determine the Prophets
The Koran has Listed them as has the Baha’i Writings, thus as a Jew
Regards Tony
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Kaninchen
Guest
No, that was trawling through the Tanakh in the vague hope of finding something that could be described as a prophesy.
Christians are tremendously good at it, by the way.
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Kaninchen
Guest
As a Jew, I don’t believe a word of it.The new Testament has all the requirements you are seeking to Determine the Prophets
The Koran has Listed them as has the Baha’i Writings, thus as a Jew
Regards Tony
I do tend to get a picture of a ‘house of cards’, with the Baha’i view of Christianity at the bottom then, on top of that, the Baha’i view of Islam as the next level and, on top, the Baha’i view of Baha’i.
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TonyBS
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Not at all Vague and I do not have to hope at finding a thing, it is already there. I am but not a thing less that the black in the eye of a dead ant
The entire Old and New testament and Koran were revealed to prepare us so we could recognize Baha’u’llah when he came. There was no other reason for them.
That is a big thing to miss
Regards Tony
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Kaninchen
Guest
Well, you would say that, wouldn’t you?The entire Old and New testament and Koran were revealed to prepare us so we could recognize Baha’u’llah when he came. There was no other reason for them.
That is a big thing to miss
What you’re supposed to be doing is explaining how that is the case, while all you seem to be doing is saying the same thing more nebulously.
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TonyBS
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No need to go any further as the post intent has been met, you know our thought Processes as to using all the Holy Books NowWell, you would say that, wouldn’t you?
What you’re supposed to be doing is explaining how that is the case, while all you seem to be doing is saying the same thing more nebulously.
What I can say is “Like Wow!”
Regards Tony
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TonyBS
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This is the answer - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/Well, you would say that, wouldn’t you?
What you’re supposed to be doing is explaining how that is the case, while all you seem to be doing is saying the same thing more nebulously.
Most of Baha’ullah’s works were revealed in a matter of Hours to a maximum of a couple of days.
No contemplation needed the Words flowed like a river beginning to end.
Regards Tony
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Servant19
Guest
Tony, you may not have noticed that our dear sister Kaninchen is a JewHa ha, Do you think Baha’is are not doing stuff
God has given each and every person the capacity to know him and love him, how else can each of is be judged.
Remember it was a fisherman with no education who became one of the most Learned. No human learning is needed to know and love God. In saying that Education is a must and can raise man to Glorified hights as long as God is in The heart.
No doubt that Jesus performed Miracles as did Muhammad the Bab and Baha’u’llah. We are told the greatest is that of changing satanic hearts into God devoted Lovers. This was their purpose.
Material Miracles are not lasting proof and only good for those who witnessed them. If they are proof then you must accept all that have performed them.
Regards Tony
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Servant19
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Dear sister Kaninchen,Well, you would say that, wouldn’t you?
What you’re supposed to be doing is explaining how that is the case, while all you seem to be doing is saying the same thing more nebulously.
As you have probably experienced, it gets quite tiresome repeating the same thing again and again to some Catholics, only for them to “just not get it”
I have a feeling Tony is being purposely vague due to his thinking that you too are a Catholic.
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TonyBS
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Yes I did not notice on the First postTony, you may not have noticed that our dear sister Kaninchen is a Jew
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In was soon informed/as to the error of my ways.But let’s face it, a Jew on a Catholic site is already a Lover of the One God.
God bless her
Regards Tony
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Servant19
Guest
Dear Kaninchen,
The Baha’i Faith has no problems in believing the historicity of the Bible, but stresses the need to understand that the purpose of the Bible is not for its historical value, but for it’s spiritual value.
Every word, every teaching, every parable has spiritual application in our lives, and gives us a direction on “what we should DO” in order to be in righteous relationship with G-d.
I think the value of the NT over the OT lies in it’s emphasis in seeing the “spirit” behind our actions, and how that can impact our soul and thereby our drawing us nearer to our Lord.
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TonyBS
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I’m scared of EricI have a feeling Tony is being purposely vague due to his thinking that you too are a Catholic.
Regards Tony
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