Thought this article was interesting - any thoughts?

[MorningSong51]

***The Theology of the Liturgical Year ***
by Rev. John H. Miller, C.S.C., S.T.D.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9558

THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF TIME

It is with Christ, of course, that the ancient circular concept of time becomes definitively a spiral one, for He stands at the end of man’s past and effectively joins to it the hope of a glorious future. As a man born outside of time, He lived in time, worked in time, died in time, in order to bring man from time to eternity. "Jesus Christ, yesterday, today, and the same forever.1 Like an ever constant present, Christ gradually reshapes man in the course of his cyclic natural life from what he was to what his Designer wants him to be. Thus has Christ sanctified time, making it a symbol or sacramental of spiritual regeneration, growth and maturity.2 Using the natural rhythm of the “circle of the year,” Christianity, urged on by the magnum mysterium of redemption, has constructed a system of feasts and seasons to insert that mystery into man’s life. And man, in turn, is thus gradually caught up into the current of Christ’s life and bit by bit transfigured into His likeness. Come once into time, Christ is continued in time, uses time, gives time a power of sanctification that makes man live for himself the great wonders of redemption wrought by Christ so long ago.

What is true of time is also true of the spiritual life of man. It is always changing and yet remains the same. It is the same life of Christ that finds myriad concretizations as different men absorb and apply it to themselves according to their dispositions which change from day to day. And the Liturgical Year takes this into account as it changes, during the course of the natural seasons, the aspect under which it presents the mystery of Christ to men. This is important, for in the spiritual life there are no plateaus: man must either advance or retreat; he cannot remain static. And the annually recurring mysteries of Christ’s life force him to take another step, make him change pace, give him reason to try harder to climb the spiral of a supernaturalized time that leads him to likeness to Christ.

 

[Nimzovik]

Hmmmmmmmm…

 

[jpjd]

As a man born outside of time, He lived in time, worked in time, died in time, in order to bring man from time to eternity.

Is he saying that Jesus was born outside of time? I think that is incorrect. I think it would be more accurate to say the Son was begotten of the Father outside of time, born of the Virgin Mary in time.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Is he saying that Jesus was born outside of time? I think that is incorrect. I think it would be more accurate to say the Son was begotten of the Father outside of time, born of the Virgin Mary in time.

New translation, but the Latin always said this, states “incarnate of the Virgin Mary”, different meaning and perspective (more correct).

As for the human will of Christ in the hypostatic union, I’m not certain but I think prior to the incarnation the human will of Christ did not exist but the Word as the only begotten Son of God always did.

Some might state His human will and body existed before the Incarnation and base it off Jude 1:5 from the Douay Rheims edition:

[BIBLEDRB]Jude 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]

But all other translations state something like:

(NRS-CE)
Now I desire to remind you, though you are fully informed, that the Lord, who once for all saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

But the prior verse states:

For certain intruders have stolen in among you, people who long ago were designated for this condemnation as ungodly, who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

So when Judas (Jude) wrote verse 5 stating “Lord”, he may have in mind Jesus when he stated “our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

Also the Franciscan thesis of the Incarnation may have implications on this. That Jesus was willed first, before time, as the absolute primacy of existence.

Though, I’d like to read de Fide material on this subject.

 

[MorningSong51]

Is he saying that Jesus was born outside of time? I think that is incorrect. I think it would be more accurate to say the Son was begotten of the Father outside of time, born of the Virgin Mary in time.

In one respect when I first read the article, I thought about the parallel toward Ecclesiastes 3,when referring to time, per prius et posterius:

“Since the coming of Christ, time has a Christian meaning. It is not simply the measure of prius et posterius, nor even less the tick tock of the clock. As the inch on the ruler does not exhaust the mysteries of space, so the minute cannot disclose the full significance of time. Time is indeed measured, yet it transcends count.”

It is that question that arises, of what “if” Christ came, today? When Christ came to us, it was the exact time for the redemption - for salvation. So again, as I’m reading back the article, again - I still get something new from it, which I think the author is awesome for writing it. I have see it from the prospect of Moses goes up the mountain and comes down 40 days later - in order to under the verse in Habakkuk 2:3, “Though it tarries, wait for it; For it will certainly come, it will not delay.” as then to read from the New Testament in Hebrews 10:3, "Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)“Because in a very short time, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”

Everything has its time - Jesus said “27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

 

[MorningSong51]

New translation, but the Latin always said this, states “incarnate of the Virgin Mary”, different meaning and perspective (more correct).

As for the human will of Christ in the hypostatic union, I’m not certain but I think prior to the incarnation the human will of Christ did not exist but the Word as the only begotten Son of God always did.

Some might state His human will and body existed before the Incarnation and base it off Jude 1:5 from the Douay Rheims edition:

[BIBLEDRB]Jude 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]

But all other translations state something like:

(NRS-CE)
Now I desire to remind you, though you are fully informed, that the Lord, who once for all saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

But the prior verse states:

For certain intruders have stolen in among you, people who long ago were designated for this condemnation as ungodly, who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

So when Judas (Jude) wrote verse 5 stating “Lord”, he may have in mind Jesus when he stated “our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

Also the Franciscan thesis of the Incarnation may have implications on this. That Jesus was willed first, before time, as the absolute primacy of existence.

Though, I’d like to read de Fide material on this subject.

I thought this article was a great to read because you have some understanding about the point that Father was making about time, "As a man born outside of time, He lived in time, worked in time, died in time, in order to bring man from time to eternity. “Jesus Christ, yesterday, today, and the same forever.1 Like an ever constant present, Christ gradually reshapes man in the course of his cyclic natural life from what he was to what his Designer wants him to be.”

 

[MorningSong51]

Hmmmmmmmm…

Lol…what do you think?

 

[MorningSong51]

I’ll throw this thought into the mix:

In the New Testament kairos means “the appointed time in the purpose of God”, the time when God acts (e.g. Mark 1.15, the kairos is fulfilled). It differs from the more usual word for time which is chronos (kronos).

In the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, before the Divine Liturgy begins, the Deacon exclaims to the Priest, “Kairos tou poiesai to Kyrio” (“It is time [kairos] for the Lord to act”); indicating that the time of the Liturgy is an intersection with Eternity.

 

[Nimzovik]

Methinks that time is indeed …maleable -for lack of a better word. Linear time is indeed different from non-linear time. God is omniscient - yes? Future and past and present are ‘one’ to God perhaps? Not unlike our very own memories? I visit the past frequently when I think back to my childhood days -for an analogy. Hmmmm. We made in the Image of God - yes? Maybe the multiverse is like the mind of God? Like our memories? Wheeeee! Wild speculation! Intellectual thumbtwiddling at it’s best!

As for as far as Christ being a ‘Marker’ of sorts of linear time for mankind…well… hmmmm… -again the terminology must be carefully thought out here, which I have **not **done- is a fascinating concept.

We see through a glass darkly yes? Too dark perhaps? Should we aspire to such at this stage? Should we not ‘wait’ as indicated?

Hmmm… and hmmm again.

All that has been said is a great thought -‘toy.’ It sparks the imagination and makes us wonder about the wonders of God.

Too much for me at this juncture. I do enjoy the speculation tho… Keep at it. Much food for thought here.

All the translations mentioned need to be examined thoroughly. A monumental task. Perhaps all for only an uncertain guess at best. Language is a product of the zeitgeist of it’s time. Nuances may be missed. All very difficult.

However if those involved in this dicussion wish to sacrifice their time, talent and treasure I shall be glad to sit back and freeload from your efforts.

Truly a remarkable discussion.

Thankyou for the fun.

 

[MorningSong51]

Methinks that time is indeed …maleable -for lack of a better word. Linear time is indeed different from non-linear time. God is omniscient - yes? Future and past and present are ‘one’ to God perhaps? Not unlike our very own memories? I visit the past frequently when I think back to my childhood days -for an analogy. Hmmmm. We made in the Image of God - yes? Maybe the multiverse is like the mind of God? Like our memories? Wheeeee! Wild speculation! Intellectual thumbtwiddling at it’s best!

As for as far as Christ being a ‘Marker’ of sorts of linear time for mankind…well… hmmmm… -again the terminology must be carefully thought out here, which I have **not **done- is a fascinating concept.

We see through a glass darkly yes? Too dark perhaps? Should we aspire to such at this stage? Should we not ‘wait’ as indicated?

Hmmm… and hmmm again.

All that has been said is a great thought -‘toy.’ It sparks the imagination and makes us wonder about the wonders of God.

Too much for me at this juncture. I do enjoy the speculation tho… Keep at it. Much food for thought here.

All the translations mentioned need to be examined thoroughly. A monumental task. Perhaps all for only an uncertain guess at best. Language is a product of the zeitgeist of it’s time. Nuances may be missed. All very difficult.

However if those involved in this dicussion wish to sacrifice their time, talent and treasure I shall be glad to sit back and freeload from your efforts.

Truly a remarkable discussion.

Thankyou for the fun.

Ahhh, Yes! There truly is a difference between what man calculates time verses when God delivers according to the fullness of time, can this be the same? I say, No! When Mary spoke to the angel of the Lord, she said (and since God’s word is eternal)“38 And Mary said, Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.” and we read next in John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. 15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me.

16 For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

"After the sun and moon were created, God “intercalated the years and afterwards He delivered the (calculation) to the first man in the garden of Eden, as it is said, This is the calculations for the generations of Adam, the calculation of the world is therein for the generations of the children of Adam. Adam handed on the tradition to Enoch…And Enoch delivered the principle of intercalation to Noah…Noah handed on the tradition to Shem…Shem delivered the tradition to Abraham; he was initiated in the principle of intercalation” The focus on the calendar speaks to the anachronistic notion that the pre-Sinai generation observed festival in their proper time. Such determinations may have required empirical observation of the sun and moon as well as calculations. To ascribe intercalations to the Patriarchs not only involved technical knowledge, it assumed the legal authority to render such binding decisions.

Abraham taught Isaac so that he was like him in all ways. The “tongue of the creation,” Hebrew, which was lost to general knowledge with the destruction of the Tower of Babel, was now reaffirmed as the language of law. According to the Midrash, the verse Abraham armed his disciples was interpreted as teaching them the portion of the Torah, Deuteronomy, Chapter 20, which discusses the laws of war. Law seemed to follow life. The mjor focus was upon Shimush, the apprenticeship of children and disciples with the domestic setting. Observing law in action was important element in this training." - The Law before the Law, by Steven Wilf

So, to ask the question back to you - are we seeing through a glass darkly yes?Perhaps, God has revealed his salvation and redeemer to those that He has chosen, as we know that there were shepherds in the same country abiding in the field, and keeping watch by night over their flock, who saw the star; we know that 9 And an angel of the Lord stood by them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid; we also know the Wise-men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, 2 Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and are come to worship him; 19 But Mary kept all these sayings, pondering them in her heart. 20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, even as it was spoken unto them."

I will continue to review this article - but I think, you can understand it from various ways and how the Church unites us: (as stated)“Even though all days are holy since the coming of Christ, there are, nevertheless, certain days which arc pre-eminently holy, special days which heighten man’s attention to Christ and the spiritual life and thus keep him free of that killer of true devotion, routine. That such holy days are a real need in the spiritual life is well attested to by the universal practice of all religions, both natural and revealed. This all pertains to the time-rhythm of human life. Man cannot live in a rut; neither can he always live on the top of quickened emotion. He has tips and downs in his personal dispositions. This is his human condition, and the Liturgical Year, with its changing seasons and more outstanding solemnities, is especially well suited to it.”

 

[MorningSong51]

NOTION OF A CHRISTIAN FEAST

“While it is all very good and important to insist on the “naturalness” of the Liturgical Year, it is no less necessary to bring out its other-worldly character, its supernaturalness. Christianity is not just another form of religious naturalism. It rests on the solid conviction that man, left to himself, can in no way “spiral” himself out of his human “fix.” Oh yes, lie might contrive to lift society, reform the mores of his people, invent all sorts of nice little gadgets that make for “a happy hunting ground.” But our poor man will be deceived if he thinks his great empire is not doomed to be purely human–and mortal. He has neither a higher objective nor the power to achieve it. Both must come from God. Christianity is a supernatural religion based on a supernatural event : man transfigured and redeemed. Though the Church has conscientiously endeavored to adopt the seasons of the natural year as well as the solemn occasions of civil society, she has done this, not because these institutions were of themselves sacred, but in order to make them sacred and thus the more easily to sanctify man who uses them. Every feast of the Church is a commemoration of a supernatural event that happened among men to transform men into God. It is the work of redemption that the Church brings to man and inserts into the orbit of time which man uses and in which he lives.”

 

[Nimzovik]

MorningSong: Thanks! All very informative and interesting. Spiritually invigorating as well.

Interesting is this term -" The “tongue of the creation,” Could this be more than a mere language?

Altho ganted - the whole issue of outside of time is very interesting and worthy of meditation I b thinking that -perhaps- the maleable time factor ( I do soooo wish there were a better term for this) of God’s perspective - that just maybe there may be a very practical application? To whit: A man with NO bent to religion dies. 3 days later the man’s good Christian friend hears of his untimely death. Knowing the probable state of his friend’s soul the Christian prays the Chaplet of Divine Mercy and 3 Hail Mary’s (I say the three Hail Marys as it includes :“at the hour of our death”) for the man’s soul. Is it possible that Christ/God knows of the prayers that were going to be said in the 'future’ (past the ‘linear time point’ of the sinner’s death) for the poor reprobate and then ‘applys’ them to the sinner at the hour of the sinner’s death? Which in turn allows for the sinner -while dying, to have the ‘Baptism of Desire?’ Does 2nd Macccabees support such a notion?

 

[MorningSong51]

MorningSong: Thanks! All very informative and interesting. Spiritually invigorating as well.

Interesting is this term -" The “tongue of the creation,” Could this be more than a mere language?

Altho granted - the whole issue of outside of time is very interesting and worthy of meditation I b thinking that -perhaps- the maleable time factor ( I do soooo wish there were a better term for this) of God’s perspective - that just maybe there may be a very practical application? To whit: A man with NO bent to religion dies. 3 days later the man’s good Christian friend hears of his untimely death. Knowing the probable state of his friend’s soul the Christian prays the Chaplet of Divine Mercy and 3 Hail Mary’s (I say the three Hail Marys as it includes :“at the hour of our death”) for the man’s soul. Is it possible that Christ/God knows of the prayers that were going

 

[Nimzovik]

Yes,yes, yes indeed. I understand the ‘one righteous man’ concept.

However, what I am asking is this - are prayers for those that are *already dead ***and **whom died (appearantly) not in friendship with God - is it possible that the prayers said post mortem of said sinner -can be beneficial to the dead sinner? In other words -IF God knows that in the future (after the sinners death) prayers will be said for the sinner, could/would God then apply the prayers to the sinner as he was dying even tho the prayers have not been said during the point of time of the sinner’s living history?
Hopefully at the moment of death to allow the dying sinner to have at least the ‘baptism of desire’ to his credit on his judgement day.

Looking at what I wrote it does indeed appear convoluted.

Anyways as in 2nd Maccabees they prayed for the dead that carried amulets to false gods if memory serves correctly. Is this a precedent?

 

[MorningSong51]

Nimzovik;8617846]Yes,yes, yes indeed. I understand the ‘one righteous man’ concept.

Ok, So Abraham pleads to God for the sake of the city, right? because Abraham walked blamelessly and was a righteous man before God (Genesis 26:5,“because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions”) in that plea to God, Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes” - God agreed “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

Read, Hebrews 4:14 “Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.”

Last, and there are many more verses, Christ knew of his crucifixion - but again, the time was in the hands of God - so much so, for the city of Jerusalem, Luke 19: 41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you (again, we read about the trial of Christ, in the same way) and encircle you and hem you in on every side. (who encircled Christ - what enemies did he have?) 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

Its said that when a person reaches the fullness of his sins - what happens? The person himself becomes like a dead man (eye that can’t see and ears that don’t hear) - so then what happens when someone prays for this person? The person who intercedes for them asks God to open this persons soul, and will plead on their behalf so that they will be open to God’s mercy - to be reconciled back to God (2 Maccabees 1:2-5, “3 And give you all a heart to worship him, and to do his will with a great heart, and a willing mind.”) Even when we are alive but dead to spiritual things of God, we are in somewhat in a grave - the flesh. - what is said in Hannah prayer? 6 “The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up."

What is being done is that these Great Patriarchs are pleading to God for the people of Israel to change, to return back to, to have a willing spirit to follow God’s laws - Nehemiah 9, goes through the entire history of Jewish people, and pleads for them, it is to open themselves to the Spirit of God, see any verse in Psalms 119.

Bottom line:

30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’a? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

He is the God of the living not of the dead. Dead can mean that you are alive (physically) but spiritually dead - sin kills the soul. Who raises the dead to life? Are we not made alive in Christ? We are bonded to Christ (John 17) If you’re asking me if this person can be reconciled back to God from the grave, that is if he was a sinner in this life? First how do we know that this person didn’t ask God to forgive him, at the time of death? and how do we know what kind of relationship that this man had with God? Who can judge? Only God - but I believe that “Yes” God can hear your prayers for this person and with all certainty this man can be reconciled back to God. No doubt in mind about that. You will feel this peace for this man that you had prayed for because you believe that he is worth saving, even in the grave.

When my grandmother died, my grandfather passed a couple of years later - I loved them very much. I remember on the day that my grandfather passed, I dreamt that I saw them both on a park bench, waving me good bye - as they holding hands. Then the nurse called and told my mother that her father passed on…

Blessings
Mary

 

[MorningSong51]

Nimzovik:
Anyways as in 2nd Maccabees they prayed for the dead that carried amulets to false gods if memory serves correctly. Is this a precedent?

Again, if you read Psalms 115:4 “But their idols are silver and gold, made by the hands of men. 5They have mouths, but cannot speak,eyes, but they cannot see; 6 they have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell;7 they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk; nor can they utter a sound with their throats.8 Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.”

If statues can’t see, hear, walk or feel - they can’t save, neither can amulets: Read the book of Baruch:

9 Hear, Israel, the commandments of life: give ear to understand wisdom.10 How happeneth it Israel, that thou art in thine enemies’ land, that thou art waxen old in a strange country, that thou art defiled with the dead,11 That thou art counted with them that go down into the grave?12 **Thou hast forsaken the fountain of wisdom.13 For if thou hadst walked in the way of God, thou shouldest have dwelled in peace for ever.

**14 Learn where is wisdom, where is strength, where is understanding; that thou mayest know also where is length of days, and life, where is the light of the eyes, and peace.15 Who hath found out her place? or who hath come into her treasures? 16 Where are the princes of the heathen become, and such as ruled the beasts upon the earth;17 They that had their pastime with the fowls of the air, and they that hoarded up silver and gold, wherein men trust, and made no end of their getting?18 For they that wrought in silver, and were so careful, and whose works are unsearchable,19 They are vanished and gone down to the grave, and others are come up in their steads.
20 Young men have seen light, and dwelt upon the earth: but the way of knowledge have they not known,21 Nor understood the paths thereof, nor laid hold of it: their children were far off from that way.22 It hath not been heard of in Chanaan, neither hath it been seen in Theman.23 The Agarenes that seek wisdom upon earth, the merchants of Meran and of Theman, the authors of fables, and searchers out of understanding; none of these have known the way of wisdom, or remember her paths.24 O Israel, how great is the house of God! and how large is the place of his possession! 25 Great, and hath none end; high, and unmeasurable.26 There were the giants famous from the beginning, that were of so great stature, and so expert in war. 27 Those did not the Lord choose, neither gave he the way of knowledge unto them:

28 But they were destroyed, because they had no wisdom, and perished through their own foolishness.29 Who hath gone up into heaven, and taken her, and brought her down from the clouds?30 Who hath gone over the sea, and found her, and will bring her for pure gold? 31 No man knoweth her way, nor thinketh of her path.32 But he that knoweth all things knoweth her, and hath found her out with his understanding: he that prepared the earth for evermore hath filled it with fourfooted beasts:33 He that sendeth forth light, and it goeth, calleth it again, and it obeyeth him with fear.34 The stars shined in their watches, and rejoiced: when he calleth them, they say, Here we be; and so with cheerfulness they shewed light unto him that made them.35 This is our God, and there shall none other be accounted of in comparison of him36 He hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob his servant, and to Israel his beloved.37 Afterward did he shew himself upon earth, and conversed with men.

Chapter 4

THIS is the book of the commandments of God, and the law that endureth for ever: ***all they that keep it shall come to life; but such as leave it shall die.***2 **Turn thee, O Jacob, and take hold of it: walk in the presence of the light thereof, that thou mayest be illuminated.**3 Give not thine honour to another, nor the things that are profitable unto thee to a strange nation.4 O Israel, happy are we: for things that are pleasing to God are made known unto us.5 Be of good cheer, my people, the memorial of Israel.6 Ye were sold to the nations, not for your destruction: but because ye moved God to wrath, ye were delivered unto the enemies.7 For ye provoked him that made you by sacrificing unto devils, and not to God.8 Ye have forgotten the everlasting God, that brought you up; and ye have grieved Jerusalem, that nursed you.9 For when she saw the wrath of God coming upon you, she said, Hearken, O ye that dwell about Sion: God hath brought upon me great mourning;10 For I saw the captivity of my sons and daughters, which the Everlasting brought upon them.

 

[Nimzovik]

Ok - I think this is what I was looking for,:

Morningstar: "He is the God of the living not of the dead. Dead can mean that you are alive (physically) but spiritually dead - sin kills the soul. Who raises the dead to life? Are we not made alive in Christ? We are bonded to Christ (John 17) If you’re asking me if this person can be reconciled back to God from the grave, that is if he was a sinner in this life? First how do we know that this person didn’t ask God to forgive him, at the time of death? and how do we know what kind of relationship that this man had with God? Who can judge? Only God - but I believe that “Yes” God can hear your prayers for this person and with all certainty this man can be reconciled back to God. No doubt in mind about that. You will feel this peace for this man that you had prayed for because you believe that he is worth saving, even in the grave"

Italics mine.

To restate. The concept that, for sake of argument, a **known **to be spiritually dead person may be redeemed at the hour of his/her physical death -thanks in part- to the prayers offered after his death. This because God - in his ability to be ‘above’ time- would know that prayers would be said in the future (i.e. after the sinner’s death) for the sinner’s soul.

 

[MorningSong51]

Ok - I think this is what I was looking for,:

Morningstar: "He is the God of the living not of the dead. Dead can mean that you are alive (physically) but spiritually dead - sin kills the soul. Who raises the dead to life? Are we not made alive in Christ? We are bonded to Christ (John 17) If you’re asking me if this person can be reconciled back to God from the grave, that is if he was a sinner in this life? First how do we know that this person didn’t ask God to forgive him, at the time of death? and how do we know what kind of relationship that this man had with God? Who can judge? Only God - but I believe that “Yes” God can hear your prayers for this person and with all certainty this man can be reconciled back to God. No doubt in mind about that. You will feel this peace for this man that you had prayed for because you believe that he is worth saving, even in the grave"

Italics mine.

To restate. The concept that, for sake of argument, a **known **to be spiritually dead person may be redeemed at the hour of his/her physical death -thanks in part- to the prayers offered after his death. This because God - in his ability to be ‘above’ time- would know that prayers would be said in the future (i.e. after the sinner’s death) for the sinner’s soul.

Hi Nimzovik, This is a bit off the original topic:

We could even go farther then - prayers being heard at the hour of death, to return the soul back to God. Every person has a personal relationship with God and also given a special path or plan in ones’ own life to carry out. We live to fulfill that promise to God - liken to any Angel (as Malakh - can be divine or human - to quote: Hebrew “mal’akh” (מַלְאָךְ) is the standard Hebrew Bible word for “messenger”, both human and divine - The noun derives from the verbal consonantal root l-’-k (ל-א-ך), meaning “to send”. This root is attested in Hebrew only in this noun and in the noun “Melakha” (מְלָאכָה), meaning “work”. The term “Mal’akh” therefore simply means one who is sent, often translated as “messenger” when applied to humans; for instance, “Mal’akh” is the root of the name of the prophet Malachi, whose name means “my messenger”. In modern Hebrew, mal’akh is the general word for “angel”; it is also the word for “angel” in Arabic (malak ملاك), Aramaic and Ethiopic.)

Again, and as a repeat, first how do we know that this person didn’t ask God to forgive him, at the time of death? and how do we know what kind of relationship that this man had with God? Who can judge? Only God - but I believe that “Yes” God can hear your prayers for this person and with all certainty this man can be reconciled back to God.

Also, the apostle Paul tells us:

7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

 

[MorningSong51]

Nimzovik - a last thought

Every life is accountable to God, “for in the image of God has God made mankind” every human being is made in that image and likeness, as man was created on the 6th day, “31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.” All life is accountable for every deed - that’s why abortion shouldn’t be allowed because it destroys life. If we say that every human life is destined for goodness or for a purpose, how much so for the person you wrote about on his death bed.

“An hour is a short space of time; there are many parts of time longer, - days, weeks, months, years, jubilees, ages, -but there is only one shorter, to wit, minutes; nay, the shortest time by which men commonly reckon is the hour, with its several parts; so that, where our apostle saith it was the last hour, he intends that it was but an hour, that is, a very short time, and Jerusalem should be destroyed. Look as when the duration of an affliction is set forth, by an hour, it noteth the brevity of its continuance; so when the coming of an affliction is measured by an hour, it noteth the celerity of its approach.”

We are accountable for the things we do in this life - yes, I agree. As with the story of King David when he sinned. Nathan had approached David as he knew what he did was wrong. Some people who realize their sins don’t necessarily back down and ask for forgiveness - but some realize it, ask for forgiveness, and correct the wrong whether God reveals this sin at the end of our life, in the middle, or at the beginning. God, however, deals with us personally, like David said, "13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.”

So what is in an hour? a minute? when the Lord comes calling on us?

Reference:

[The first general epistle of St. John the Apostle unfolded and applied
By Nathaniel Hardy

](http://books.google.com/books?id=cL...job man is here for only a short time&f=false)

 

[Nimzovik]

Morningsong: “Again, and as a repeat, first how do we know that this person didn’t ask God to forgive him, at the time of death? and how do we know what kind of relationship that this man had with God? Who can judge? Only God - but I believe that “Yes” God can hear your prayers for this person and with all certainty this man can be reconciled back to God.”

I posited the concept of the person being an unrepentant sinner at his death. It was a ’ given’ hypothetical for the sake of probing an issue. However I think, as you mention, time is quite… flexible… relevatively speaking. Yes it may be quite possible that God may take prayers from the ‘future’ and apply them to the process of the unrepentant sinner’s death experience. He may then perhaps repent at that ‘point’ of time.

All very speculative of course. Yes?
’