Thoughtful response to deist view?

[SalamKhan]

In short, evil is sin against God.

You misunderstood the question, what is the nature of evil?

The sin of Adam and Eve.

So it had a beginning, and must therefore be created, for it is impossible for something to will its own existence. Who is the creator of evil?

If the attributes are not separate from His entity then they are His entity. Unless you are saying that Allah’s entity is composed of distinct parts. If so, then a God that does not rely on attributes which are distinct from His entity is not as perfect as a God who is completely united in all his attributes.

That is called deductive analogy, and by doing that for the entity of Allah, you forfeit the right to hide behind the claim that “The Trinity is a mystery”. If you assert the attributes are identical to the divine entity, you must also assert that the attributes are identical to each other; thereby making it permissable to say that God rewards the righteous by His wrath, or that God is knowing by His sight (knowledge is related to both existent and non-existent things, whilst sight is related to existent things only). Moreover, your doctrine of divine simplicity, which asserts that formal or real distinctions cannot exist in God, is incompatible with your doctrine of the Trinity, which asserts that the distinction between the three hypostases is a real distinction.

We do not use deductive analogy from empirical knowledge to affirm for the entity of Allah what He has not affirmed for Himself. Such as the anthropomorphists who use deductive analogy from the statement of the Prophet (S), “your Lord is not one eyed”, in order to assert that Allah has two eyes (far is He above His creation!). Or the Christians who use deductive analogy from this created world of substances and accidents in order to assert that the entity of Allah is a substance.

We do not use deductive analogy from empirical knowledge to deny for Allah what He has affirmed. Such as the Mutazilites who used deductive analogy from the optics of this world to deny the ultimate reward of the vision of Allah. Or both Mutazilites and Christians who use deductive analogy to deny that Allah is the creator of evil.

What is permissable to do, is to use deductive analogy from empirical knowledge for the effects of the attributes Allah has affirmed for Himself.

I don’t think I’m making that distinction. To will something is different than to have it emanate. If evil is an effect of Allah’s will, then Allah wills what is sinful and therefore would contradict any perfection his being would have.

In the Catholic view, God does not will evil. He is the perfection of all good and wills only what is good.

Your mistake is that you cannot distinguish between the will of Allah, and the command of Allah. The will of Allah always takes place regardless of whether His creation intends to fulfill it or not. In reality, Allah is neither benefited nor harmed by good and evil. The very meaning of tyranny or opression is infringing on the rights and ownership of others, but this cannot be attributed to Allah as He has dominion and ownership over all things, thus He has the right to take what He owns i.e. human life.

It is indeed impossible for Allah to be attributed with imperfection, and having no power over His creation is an imperfection.

 

[reggieM]

You misunderstood the question, what is the nature of evil?

We would say that evil does not have a nature as such - it is a defect or lack in being and perfection.

So it had a beginning, and must therefore be created, for it is impossible for something to will its own existence. Who is the creator of evil?

Again, as above - evil is not an existent being. It is the result of moral distance from God who is the source of all good. We believe that humans have freedom to decide their own actions and God permits that for their growth. This is why our actions either have merit or condemnation. We don’t look to God as determining or willing all of our deeds.

That is called deductive analogy, and by doing that for the entity of Allah, you forfeit the right to hide behind the claim that “The Trinity is a mystery”.

If you are saying that therefore “Allah is a mystery”, then you haven’t solved the problem of evil.

If you assert the attributes are identical to the divine entity, you must also assert that the attributes are identical to each other; thereby making it permissable to say that God rewards the righteous by His wrath, or that God is knowing by His sight (knowledge is related to both existent and non-existent things, whilst sight is related to existent things only).

We use anthropomorphisms to speak of God because human reason is limited and cannot express perfectly the supernatural reality. To suggest that this is possible would mean that Allah is reducible to the limits of human reason, and therefore would be a less perfect God than one which cannot be circumscribed by finite reason.

What is permissable to do, is to use deductive analogy from empirical knowledge for the effects of the attributes Allah has affirmed for Himself.

This assumes that we can comprehend and evaluate what Allah has affirmed, and I believe you showed one school of Islamic thought that disagrees with your view here.

Your mistake is that you cannot distinguish between the will of Allah, and the command of Allah. The will of Allah always takes place regardless of whether His creation intends to fulfill it or not. In reality, Allah is neither benefited nor harmed by good and evil. The very meaning of tyranny or opression is infringing on the rights and ownership of others, but this cannot be attributed to Allah as He has dominion and ownership over all things, thus He has the right to take what He owns i.e. human life.

Yes, but this is another way of saying that there is no evil at all. If the will of Allah always takes place, and Allah has the right to do anything and everything, and Allah is perfection - then evil does not exist, or evil is a manifestation of the perfection of Allah. This also is a deterministic system.

In my view, that does not solve the problem of evil.

 

[SalamKhan]

We would say that evil does not have a nature as such - it is a defect or lack in being and perfection.

As I expected you to say, evil is the privation of goodness, like coldness being the privation of heat. This is a false analogy and out of touch with reality. We nonetheless feel the effect of coldness, and an effect does not come from the absence of something, but rather from the presence of something. If you were to drink poison, the effect of poison comes from the presence of poison, not from the lack of it. That evil is the privation of goodness is incompatible with your own doctrine of original sin, for how can one equate inheriting guilt with inheriting the absence of something?

If you are saying that therefore “Allah is a mystery”, then you haven’t solved the problem of evil.

I said that Allah is above human understanding, and that we do not affirm for His entity what He did not affirm for Himself. And so we say that the attributes of Allah are neither Him nor other than He; they are distinct attributes which subsist in His entity. That you use deductive analogy to affirm for the entity of Allah what He did not affirm for Himself, gives you no right to hide behind the claim that “the Trinity is a mystery”.

We use anthropomorphisms to speak of God because human reason is limited and cannot express perfectly the supernatural reality. To suggest that this is possible would mean that Allah is reducible to the limits of human reason, and therefore would be a less perfect God than one which cannot be circumscribed by finite reason.

This has little relevance to what I wrote. Either you did not understand what I wrote, or this is merely an attempt at (intellectually dishonest) damage control. Allah is not a completely unknowable non entity.

This assumes that we can comprehend and evaluate what Allah has affirmed, and I believe you showed one school of Islamic thought that disagrees with your view here.

There is a difference between using deductive analogy for the entity of Allah (which is what you do anyway), and using deductive analogy for the effects of His attributes. Much like the intellect is capable of understanding the contingency of the universe, and by extension realising the necessity of a cause, which proves the effect of Allah’s knowledge, power and will, thereby proving His existence and His attributes. One can use deductive analogy from empirical knowledge, for example observing the effect of mercy such as from a judge who shows mercy, and realise that the rain which grows crops for him is an effect of Allah’s mercy, proving that Allah is merciful.

Yes, but this is another way of saying that there is no evil at all. If the will of Allah always takes place, and Allah has the right to do anything and everything, and Allah is perfection - then evil does not exist, or evil is a manifestation of the perfection of Allah. This also is a deterministic system.

In my view, that does not solve the problem of evil.

You should realise that the human intellect, is incapable of absolutely defining good and evil. It is Allah, the creator of good and evil, who defines good and evil. The existence of evil is from the wisdom of Allah, which may or may not be clear to us. You should also realise that Allah is under no obligation, for who is equal to or higher than Allah that He must answer to them for not fulfilling an obligation?

This is where we part ways, for I have spent more time than I should have. Arguing is a waste of time. You should read the works of the Classical Asha`ri theologians for any further enquiries. May Allah guide you and all of us to the truth, and may He protect us from misguidance. And may Allah raise the rank and honour of His beloved Prophet and Messenger, Muhammad (S), and grant peace and blessings upon the Family, Companions, Wives, and Helpers of the Prophet (S).