Thoughts about birth control/contraception

[cynic]

Madia:

Yes, assuming the marital act poses no threat to child. A couple can also engage in marital relations when one/both of the spouses are sterile. Having sexual relations with one who cannot conceive is not morally wrong. Intentionally blocking conception (contraception) is intrinsically wrong.

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then that is hypocrisy, contanstly you hear people saying here that contraception denies the procreative purpose to sex, that unity and procreation should never be seperated, even for old or sterile couples there is the chance of a miracle. But obviousely not if a child has already been conceived. What possible purpose could the couple have in having relations then? You really can’t have it both ways, telling people who use ABC that they are ruducing each other to objects, while telling people having relations when they couldn’t possibly be open to life that they’re fine. That that’s not using each other. It’s circumstantial morality. ABC may be wrong for other reasons, but he whole 'you shouldn’t enjoy sex without procreaion" thing is illogical and contradictory since people in the afformetioned circumtances ARE enjoying sex ‘for it’s own sake’.

 

[LittleDeb]

cynic:

then that is hypocrisy, contanstly you hear people saying here that contraception denies the procreative purpose to sex, that unity and procreation should never be seperated, even for old or sterile couples there is the chance of a miracle. But obviousely not if a child has already been conceived. What possible purpose could the couple have in having relations then? YOu really cna’t have it both ways, telling poepl who use ABC that they are rudicing each other to objects, while telling people having relations when they couldn’t possibly be open to life that they’re fine. That not using each other. IT’s circumstantial morality.

I was going to respond to your statement before but I got long-winded. I like how you stand up and tell it like it is. Your responses are worth the read to me.

Perhaps it might be helpful to your statement if I separate two terms. Procreation and reproduction. A lot of people use them interchangeably but they actually have two distinct meanings.

Before our son was conceived we were being procreative. At his conception we were procreative and reproductive. During my pregnancy we were still procreative. How? Procreative means literally “for creation” Reproductive means literally “make more.” or the case of a copier “make again.”

During all of my on-again off-again fertility we are still procreative and VERY unified, regardless of if we reproduce or not.

 

[cheddarsox]

Madia:

Now a child who is with you in you car is at risk for death. Since that is true, does that eliminate any responsibility on your part if you drive intoxicated and the child dies? If you are not responsible for the death of your child if you are driving safely and are in an accident then why would you be responsible for the death of your child when you are driving intoxicated?

If you are responsible for your child’s death when you are driving intoxicated then why aren’t you responsible for your child’s death when you engage in marital relations when using abortficaients?

I was not responding to the abortifacient section of your question, only to the part that said if a dr told a woman that if she got pregnant she had a high chance of miscarriage. I don’t think that alone is reason to avoid pregnancy. After all, she still has a 70% chance of live birth.

I do not support the pill.

cheddar

 

[kamz]

I searched in ask an apologist under birth control, one can use birth control for medical reasons such as my cousins wife is to regulate her period and reduce the endometreosis so she can try to get pregnant, they are not using it to avoid a pregnancy, belive me they want to get pregnant but she has tried and she has had her uterus scraped two times to help concieve and still nothing and now her periods are totally messed up and she sometimes goes for months without one, I think there is a big difference, they are trying this to see if they will get pregnant, this was actually told to them from a fertitily doctor to try this first, they want kids, and, if they never get pregnant they are not using the pill or anything else, they are just trying this to see if her periods will get normal again and hopefully her endometriosis will clear up long enough that they can get pregnant and carry a baby to term.

 

[Madia]

I would like to know what you are including in your analysis. A drug may increase the risk of contractions, increase the risk of deformity, increase the risk that the child will be a fussy child, decrease the folic acid in your blood, etc. Which effects are you considering here, or does the analysis only apply to something that thins the uterine lining, or otherwise increases the risk that a baby won’t implant correctly?

I am stating a purely hypothetical drug that has two effects: It fights and eventually cures cancer and also is contraceptive.

You might want to read #15 from Humanae Vitae:

On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)

then that is hypocrisy, contanstly you hear people saying here that contraception denies the procreative purpose to sex, that unity and procreation should never be seperated, even for old or sterile couples there is the chance of a miracle. But obviousely not if a child has already been conceived. What possible purpose could the couple have in having relations then?

Please read over Humanae Vitae particurarly sections 7-14:
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

I was not responding to the abortifacient section of your question, only to the part that said if a dr told a woman that if she got pregnant she had a high chance of miscarriage.

My hypothetical situation was one in which the woman was already pregnant and told that since it is a difficult pregnancy, they should refrain from the marital act so that they didn’t risk a miscarriage.

I searched in ask an apologist under birth control, one can use birth control for medical reasons such as my cousins wife is to regulate her period and

Here’s an article that you might want to read over:
all.org/issues/hayes001.htm

The Pope Paul VI institute might be of more help to your cousin:
popepaulvi.com/

 

[frogman80]

Madia…

That quote is from the supplemental… St. Thomas was dead before it was even written. He is not the author. It is not doctrine. THE ONLY bit I wanted to point out was what I had highlighted in bold… “…since marriage is chiefly directed to the good of the offspring, all use of marriage which is intended for the good of the offspring is in order…” The rest of it is laughable, and had nothing to do with this thread. Ignore it. I beg you to forget I even posted it. I actually was going to change it, but ran out of edit time. I quoted this to support your argument… err at least I think it is your argument.

I find your posts difficult to understand. I am not trying to be mean… I just want to try to explain why I am confused.

If you apply the part of the Summa to my original topic and substituted “birth control” for “menstrating”, it seems that it would forbid the use on account of harm toward the child.

Well sort of… but I would simply say… use of any pill during pregnancy that would cause harm to a child is forbidden. (If a situation like that even exists.) or… Having sex while using abortificants is forbidden because it will lead to the death of any resulting child.

However, if the woman couldn’t conceive then birth control would be permissible since there would be no possible harm to the child since the child couldn’t be conceived in the first place.

So are you saying that there are times when women can use birth control for medicinal purposes as long as she cannot conceive? If so, why not just say that? If you are not saying that, then statements like the quote above really confuse me.

I’m against sexual relations when the woman is on the birth control pill since the conceived child could be chemically aborted due to the aboritficants contained in the pill.

I agree… it makes sense to me. What are people saying who argue differently? I’m not so sure that use of the pill for medical reasons (non contraceptive reasons) has been proven to help anyone anyway.

 

[Madia]

So are you saying that there are times when women can use birth control for medicinal purposes as long as she cannot conceive? If so, why not just say that? If you are not saying that, then statements like the quote above really confuse me.

If a woman knows for sure that she is sterile then the contraceptive side effects of any medication would be irrelevant to her since she can’t conceive in the first place. For example, if you were taking medication that caused swelling in your tounsils but already had your tounsils removed the side effects of swollen tounsils would be irrelevant to you since they are no longer present.

With the birth control pill the woman would have to know as a fact that she is incapable of conceiving before engaging in marital relations or else she could risk the chemical abortion of her conceived child.

You really can’t have it both ways, telling people who use ABC that they are ruducing each other to objects, while telling people having relations when they couldn’t possibly be open to life that they’re fine.

Let me try this allegory. Let’s say that when you turn you on your outside light (performing the marital act), you are letting your friend know that the door is unlocked and they are welcome to come in your house (open to the gift of life). If you keep your door locked (barrier methods), you are attempting to keep your friend out even though the outside light is on. If you turn on light and unlock the door but put a barrier up behind the door and set a trap to kill him (artificial birth control), you are attempting to stop your friend to coming in your house. If the light is on and the door is open but a fallen tree is blocking the entrance (pregnant), your friend will see that you are open to him coming in your house but are prevented by other means. If you turn the light on, unlock the door but put up a barrier for a reason other than keeping your friend out (evil contraceptive [not abortfacient]side effect of medication), your friend will inquire to the reason. If it is just reason he will walk away satisfied knowing that you were open to him visiting but had a barrier there for a just reason. If you turn the light on and unlock the door but the door is rusted shut (sterile), your friend would see that you are open to him coming in but it is the rusted door that is preventing him.

 

[Fortiterinre]

frogman80:

A person needs to be careful with hypothetical situations in a logical argument. 3%-30% chance of miscarriage. Why this percentage? Did the couple get a second opinion? It is a very wide range of percentage there, and honestly 30% is may not be that much… If the couple is actually at “high” risk for loosing a child, it may be grounds for purposely postponing a pregnancy by abstaining during fertile times.

Can I just please say that I am dazzled to see my thesis statistics discussed on the Forums? The “3-30% chance of oral contraceptives being abortaficient” comes from:

larimore, W.L. and Stanford, J.B. “Postfertilization Effects of Oral Contraceptives and Their Relationship to Informed Consent.” Archives of Family Medicine, Vol. 9, No. 2 (Feb., 2000) 126-133.

The “miscarriage” has nothing to do with a regular miscarriage; it is the chance that the oral contraceptive is aborting a fertilized egg rather than preventing ovulation. Oral contraceptives typically use both estrogen and progesterone because estrogen-only pills have unpleasant side effects and progesterone-only pills are much less effective. Combined they work “well,” but actually too well for the process to be simply ovulation suppression. The actual statistics are something like 2.61% to 29.58%, but I rounded up as allowed for simplicity.

Madia is making a strong point I think; “birth control” is actually abortion far more often than even secular experts realize. Since this is the case, does it change how we might morally look at cooperation with contraception?

 

[johnnyjoe]

kamz:

my cousins wife ( they are Catholic) is on the pill under doctors orders to try to clear up her endometreosis so they can have some kind of time line or remission when she has a small window of oppurtunity to get pregnant, that is the only reason they are using it, oddly, to help them get pregnant, weird.

PLEASE tell your cousin that she needs to talk to an NFP only doctor if she can find one…she can look for them on the One More Soul website www.omsoul.org ] .

There are alternative treatments for endometreosis that do not subject her body to more damage from the BCP. This kind of treatment is common, but out-dated, so please urge your cousin to look for alternative care. Below I have posted a portion of an email I received from an Ob-Gyn who for 17 years had only prescribed the Birth Control Pill - an Oral Conraceptive - twice, and yet still treated thousands of women…it can be done.

I asked her in an email once to list some alternative treatments that would work from some of the “medical” uses of the Birth Control Pill. Note her comments about the abortifacient aspect of the pill at the end…

…here is a short rundown of alternatives to OCs (oral contraceptives) for “all things gynecological”

FIRST MAKE THE DIAGNOSIS: What is being treated. This
has been echoed by all the clinicians on the list and
is critical.

1. Progesterone used cooperatively for cases where there is
   anovulation or ovulatory dysfunction (short PPP, LPD,
   premenstrual or postmenstrual bleeding, midcycle spotting more
   than one day, and any anovulatory bleeding)
2. Glucophage for PCOD (polycystic ovarian dysfuntion): corrects the basic metabolic dysfunction.

3. Appropriate testing and diagnosis for pelvic
pain/dysmenorrhea (usually diagnostic laparoscopy with excision of endometriosis) with or without interruption of the Uterosacral ligaments for pain relief.

1. Progesterone for persistant Corpus Luteum cysts
2. Adequate doses of NSAIDS (ie Naprosyn, 550 mg every 8 hrs for the first 2-3 days of menses) beginning just before the
   onset of menses for both heavy flow and cramps. Ca and Mg may be helpful here too. If max doses taken round the clock are ineffective, laparoscopy is indicated.
3. B6, Evening Primrose Oil, Progesterone, Ca, Mg++, Aldactone 100 mg bid, exercise, healthy diet, etc etc for PMS Sx. depending on the symptoms present. Progesterone for “menstrual” or hormonally mediated migraines
4. Cancer Prevention: Pregnancy and Childbirth with prolonged
   Lactational Amenorrhea (Ovarian suppression is ovarian
   suppression whether it is because you are pregnant/lactating or on OCs!) And remember Dr Stanford’s comment that OVERALL risk is the important but difficult to quantify number and OCs may increase the risk of breast cancer while decreasing the risk of ovarian/endometrial cancer.

This is only a partial list. Of interest and along the same
lines, is a very recent article showing an increase in ovarian
cysts both after sterilization and while women were taking low
dose OCs. This is a turnaround from what previous literature
had shown with the higher doses of OCs. With these alternatives, one can manage almost problem or condition
without using OCs.

However, as has also been stated, we must be careful
of being “more Catholic than the Pope” and remember that H. vitae specifically addresses just such uses and states OCs may be justifiably used if the contraceptive effect is tolerated and not willed directly (H.vitae, paragraph 15). Often women in this situation are infertile or unmarried and abstinant anyway but in the case of a married couple, I will add my two cents worth: There is no research or published data to suggest
that a couple can identify a breakthrough ovulation by charting the CM (cervical mucus) while on OCs, even if some anecdotal evidence exists. I don’t think we know how the hormones in the OCs effect the CM except to say they probably dry it up. Also, there may be a continuous discharge caused by an ectropion present due to the OC use. Having said that, I would probably still advise a couple to keep a chart and avoid intercourse if signs of fertility occur…more as a statement about their sincerity about not willing the contraceptive effect than as a tried and proven way to prevent
a “post-fertilization effect”.

 

[kamz]

If I ever get a chance, I will talk to my cousins wife, I’m not thinking she would be too happy that I shared this on a message board, this is a very hard time for them right now and her emotions are all over the place and I will pray that the right someone will come into her life and talk to her, I am only just getting to know her and even when well meant you can stick your nose in and get in trouble, she is surrouned by a big Catholic family and Catholic friends and I live a couple hours away, so she is more than likely already aware of this.
I will pray for her though and pray that they can conceive and be able to have the children their hearts are in such desire of.

 

[Madia]

I am only just getting to know her and even when well meant you can stick your nose in and get in trouble, she is surrouned by a big Catholic family and Catholic friends

Pray for prudence in this situation.

Also, I recommend praying the Chaplet of Divine Mercy (if possible during the 3 o’clock hour) for her:
ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm

 

[sarcophagus]

I asked a similar question a week ago. My situation is that my husband feels we should use condoms because he does not want me to become pregnant while I’m in school. After I had learned more about catholicism, I decided that being on the pill and using a condom was wrong. I got an overwhelming response both here and on other forums that as long as I have stated my opinion to my husband and sincerely pray for his conversion of thought on this matter, I was able to share intimacy with him. This made me feel much better because I was being abstinenant for a while and DH was getting pretty upset.

I hope that answers one of your questions!!

 

[Madia]

I asked a similar question a week ago. My situation is that my husband feels we should use condoms because he does not want me to become pregnant while I’m in school

Have you looked into natural family planning?

omsoul.com/nfp-info.php
usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/whatisnfp.htm

Here’s a link that explains the serious motives aspect of NFP:
ewtn.com/expert/answers/nfp_serious_motives.htm