Thoughts? : Jesus was there when I was a Protestant, Jesus is THERE now that I'm a Catholic

[SteveVH]

Oh I understand the theology behind the belief…I’ve been on CAF a number of years, but still I can’t get my mind or heart around it.

Neither could the 5000 that left him. Why? Because they did not understand. Which do you want to be? The one who stayed with him or the one that walked away? The Apostles did not understand either. They believed because it Jesus who spoke and they knew he had the words of eternal life.

To be required to participate in such a ritual that must be conducted by another human being , and unless my participation in such a ritual is done l an regular basis my eternal soul is in danger denies to me all that grace implies.

It is not a ritual that saves us, Publisher, it is Jesus Christ who chose this manner to remain with us until the end of time and to feed us with the Bread of Life; his own glorified body, blood, soul and divinity. It is how we come into union with God.

I’m not “dimissjve” , I simply do not accept the claims. Of your church that such a rite is salvic in nature.

Don’t take our word for it. Just listen to the words of Jesus himself. "“Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

 

[Publisher]

Neither could the 5000 that left him. Why? Because they did not understand. Which do you want to be? The one who stayed with him or the one that walked away? The Apostles did not understand either. They believed because it Jesus who spoke and they knew he had the words of eternal life.

Friend, I don’t know where the 5000 figure came from…but that is beside the point.

It’s not that I do not believe the words of Jesus, I just do not accept your understanding of them. By your question “Which do you want to be?”. you are implying that unless I participate in the ritual meal offered by the Catholic church, I have “walked away.”? Is that your meaning by the question?

It is not a ritual that saves us, Publisher, it is Jesus Christ who chose this manner to remain with us until the end of time and to feed us with the Bread of Life; his own glorified body, blood, soul and divinity. It is how we come into union with God.

But it is necessary to participate IN the ritual is it not? And the ritual must be conducted by someone with the power to make the gestures and recite the correct words, does it not? I still have to approach another human to receive the bread and wine, and IT IS POSSIBLE that he refuse to offer me the “salvic emblems”, which leaves me…where? If I MUST rely on another human being to allow me a saving ordinance/sacrament/ritual, another human has been placed between me and God…because that other human being CAN REFUSE to allow my participation…can he not?

Don’t take our word for it. Just listen to the words of Jesus himself. "“Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

Again friend, thank you for your advice, and I understand by your words, that I don’t “listen to the words of Jesus himself”…is that your understanding of the sentence above?.

 

[JonNC]

When I was going to Protestant churches I was told (and read in the Bible) that when two people gather in Jesus’ name, Jesus is there.

When we sang songs, we were directing them towards God as well as proclaiming our faith/joy that we have.

I was taught that the Holy Spirit lived in me, and that my prayers could be directed intimately to God because He lives in me.

Now that I’m a Catholic, I get to see Jesus in the Eucharist, consume His flesh and blood so that He’s physically living in me, and through confirmation, the Holy Spirit has helped me more by God increasing my grace.

I see interesting parallels, with drastically different meanings of the presence of Jesus.

Interestingly, a Lutheran such as myself may tend to relate more closely to the latter description, rather than the former (though not denying it).

Jon

 

[MacQ]

Oh I understand the theology behind the belief…I’ve been on CAF a number of years, but still I can’t get my mind or heart around it. To be required to participate in such a ritual that must be conducted by another human being , and unless my participation in such a ritual is done l an regular basis my eternal soul is in danger denies to me all that grace implies.

I’m not “dimissjve” , I simply do not accept the claims. Of your church that such a rite is salvic in nature.

I thought “dismissive” was a polite way of putting it. Of course it is dismissive. It’s ok…just go ahead and own it.

No one says you aren’t saved if you ‘don’t participate on a regular basis’ in the roman catholic rites and sacraments. You might want to consider not putting words in our mouths.
No one says you need to get your mind and heart around it either. Your relationship with God is your own to manage. As is your eternal soul. You will likely get to heaven ahead of many of us.

Meanwhile, why do you care if we find that the sacraments of our Church bring us to a fuller and deeper relationship with Him? Their efficacy, by the way, do not depend on the purity of the “other human being”.
It’s more about its effect on us…I do find for example, that some humility is required to accept them from “another human being” as opposed to the ‘Jesus and Me’ approach I used to have. I now see the utter arrogance of that.

 

[SteveVH]

Again friend, thank you for your advice, and I understand by your words, that I don’t “listen to the words of Jesus himself”…is that your understanding of the sentence above?.

You made the comment that you did not believe that participating in the Eucharistic “ritual” was salvific. I merely pointed you in the direction of Christ’s own words on the subject. He said that if you do not then you have no life in you. Sounds pretty salvific to me.

By the way, it would be very helpful if in the future you would not hide your comments inside of my quote box as they do not appear in a form which is easy to respond. If you would like to segregate your comments from mine, in separate quote boxes, I would love to respond.

 

[SpeakKindly]

Again friend, thank you for your advice, and I understand by your words, that I don’t “listen to the words of Jesus himself”…is that your understanding of the sentence above?.

As others have said, the Eucharist gives grace to help us to be more like who we are meant to be like. We see God working through people in our lives, even if they don’t believe in God themselves. So, it’s not a stretch to say that Jesus works through His Church to really help the people.

I would also point out that Jesus specifically gave His Church the ability to forgive and “bind” whatever they decided to. So, even more so did Jesus intend for a man to be somewhere in the mix to help us get closer to God, and ultimately have eternal life in Heaven. Not that the people of the Church would stand in our way between us and God, but that they would be a great way to see God’s hand moving in our lives, important (but not absolutely dooming those who don’t) for our spiritual journey.

 

[Tommy999]

When I was going to Protestant churches I was told (and read in the Bible) that when two people gather in Jesus’ name, Jesus is there.

When we sang songs, we were directing them towards God as well as proclaiming our faith/joy that we have.

I was taught that the Holy Spirit lived in me, and that my prayers could be directed intimately to God because He lives in me.

Now that I’m a Catholic, I get to see Jesus in the Eucharist, consume His flesh and blood so that He’s physically living in me, and through confirmation, the Holy Spirit has helped me more by God increasing my grace.

I see interesting parallels, with drastically different meanings of the presence of Jesus.

Interesting topic, SpeakKindly. I share your positive experiences that you described at your protestant church. In addition, I will add:

How I know Jesus is in my AOG protestant church:

• Enthusiastic and dynamic worship and singing praise songs where you can feel God’s presence.
• Awesome preaching as if God told the pastor exactly what I needed to hear in order to grow stronger in Christ and break down strongholds in my life. I leave spiritually nourished.
• Prayer time at the end of service where elders and other trained lay leaders position themselves around the sanctuary for prayer requests. I like this part a lot and have gone down to pray for things like an upcoming surgery, for a lost relative, etc.

What is lacking (for me):

• Confessing one’s sins is rarely touched upon except for during the “Sinner’s Prayer” and altar call at the end of service. I would like to confess my sins at church. I confess them to God in my prayer life, but I would like for the confession of sins to be stressed a little more at church.
• We rarely have Holy Communion because more emphasis is placed on winning the lost and practical lessons on living out the Christian life, like sermons on putting on the full armor of God, etc.
• I hope I am not being unfair, but I don’t sense reverence to God in our sanctuary. It is more like a tone of familiarity like God is your best buddy who has your back instead of the awesome creator of the universe who loved us so much that he sent His son to die for us on the cross.
• People talk and laugh in the sanctuary before the start of service and after service like they are at Starbucks or something. This bothers me and I find it disrespectful, although it might be more of a cultural or personal preference thing because I know they are just socializing. I just know it bothers me. I hope I am not just an old fuddy duddy.

 

[Z_Ninja]

Oh I understand the theology behind the belief…I’ve been on CAF a number of years, but still I can’t get my mind or heart around it. To be required to participate in such a ritual that must be conducted by another human being , and unless my participation in such a ritual is done l an regular basis my eternal soul is in danger denies to me all that grace implies.

I’m not “dimissjve” , I simply do not accept the claims. Of your church that such a rite is salvic in nature.

It does sound dismissive in how you put it. Plus, and I may be wrong, but it is not just “another human being” that is blessing the Eucharist. You must understand that the priest is celebrating in persona Christi. So by essence, we are actively participating in the Last Supper as it happens, beyond time and space and not a mere memorial of the act.
At least that’s how I’ve come to understand it.

 

[KathleenGee]

Publisher,

How much do you believe in God’s movement in Exodus, in the instructions regarding the building of the Temple, of the Inner Sanctuary, the Mercy Seat, the role of the High Priest and the Day of Atonement, the daily sacrifices of sprinkling the blood of lambs and goats…the defined garments to be worn by the priests, the development of only the Levites now authorized to continue as priests in the Temple???

The Vatican II documents have an entire book on the liturgy. Pope Benedict, when he was a cardinal, wrote ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’.

There is a recent book out by Fr Jeremy Driscoll, entitled ‘What happens at Mass’…and you can do a search on what the liturgy is and does in the universal Catholic Catechism on line…and mumbling a few words by someone just doesn’t add up to the reality of what the Mass is.

I would suggest you be open to learning more about the Mass. It became my favorite study.

 

[Publisher]

I thought “dismissive” was a polite way of putting it. Of course it is dismissive. It’s ok…just go ahead and own it.

No one says you aren’t saved if you ‘don’t participate on a regular basis’ in the roman catholic rites and sacraments. You might want to consider not putting words in our mouths.
No one says you need to get your mind and heart around it either. Your relationship with God is your own to manage. As is your eternal soul. You will likely get to heaven ahead of many of us.

Meanwhile, why do you care if we find that the sacraments of our Church bring us to a fuller and deeper relationship with Him? Their efficacy, by the way, do not depend on the purity of the “other human being”.
It’s more about its effect on us…I do find for example, that some humility is required to accept them from “another human being” as opposed to the ‘Jesus and Me’ approach I used to have. I now see the utter arrogance of that.

Friend I’m sorry I thought when a title of a thread contained “your thoughts”…it meant myself as well.

Peace to you friend

 

[MacQ]

Friend I’m sorry I thought when a title of a thread contained “your thoughts”…it meant myself as well.

Peace to you friend

It does mean that…I didn’t say you shouldn’t post your thoughts.
You did and I responded with mine. Pretty straightforward.

 

[Dan999]

Let us all remember to keep our conversation filled with Christian charity.

 

[MacQ]

Let us all remember to keep our conversation filled with Christian charity.

I repent for being uncharitable and crankily irritated.
Consider me duly chastised.

 

[KathleenGee]

That’s OK…we all have to learn our boundaries here.

I have been reflecting on non-Catholics’ responses here and I am beginning to see that people work in God’s grace and they go as far as the grace they have leads them.

One’s will goes only so far then stops.

But we are always asked to pray for more faith.