Thoughts on Charasmatic Renewal

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Before we continue in this conversation I would like it to be completely clear that I intend this to be a conversation that is in love and kindness that is dedicated to finding (or arguing over :D) the truth no matter what it is. These arguments can get extremely heated and I don’t want anyone to go away with hatred. So, I hope no one takes this in the wrong way and I hope that no one gets offended. Now back to the topic 👍
 
The singular miracle of language at Pentecost (which you quoted) is not considered one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It does not appear in St. Paul’s list nor is it the common gift of praying in tongues also referred to by St. Paul.
Yes but Paul also said that there is to be interpretation with tongues if it isn’t understandable. For the most part, I have not heard of the gift of interpretation, nor of an orderly form of tongues which Paul described but the compulsary form in which people can’t control it.
Charlatans, oracles, and Buddhists monks have nothing to do with it. The fact that people are faking it means there’s something genuine they’re faking. What’s genuine is described in Scripture. That’s what’s happening today in the Charismatic Renewal. They have brought back the charismatic gifts. Thank God!! Read the Acts of the Apostles! The Bible tells us about the gift of tongues. When someone is filled with the Holy Spirit, they often praise God through the power of the Holy Spirit in languages they have never studied. Well, we’re living New Testament Christianity here. Pentecost isn’t over! We should want absolutely everything God has to offer us. He’s very generous! He is not a stingy Savior!
Actually, the Apostles start proclaiming in tongues before they leave the Upper Room. Then they go out, and the people hear them “extolling God” in their own languages. They understand them because the languages they are speaking happen to be the languages of the people there. Of course you don’t understand what charismatics praying in tongues are saying: you don’t know the language! That doesn’t mean it’s gibberish, though.
The fact that there are people who fake it does not prove that it is happening today. This is not irreputable proof. It proves that people have the desire to be in contact with the divine. The fact that there is practically no difference between the fakers and the real is what causes me to question their validity. Counterfeits and the real things tend to actually be different. As there are practically none, it causes me to totally question their validity. And there is a reason that tongues is synonymous to speaking in gibberish; its there are very few stories of people speaking in language they havent learned. Linguists have looked at tongues and found that it is not language but gibberish. Paul always paired tongues and interpretations, you hardly ever find interpretations.

And they were speaking a universal tongue, thats why “they were amazed and perplexed;they asked each other what it meant.” If they each were speaking a different language then why were they amazed. People knew multiple languages back then and it wouldn’t be as surprising if twelve people got up and started preaching each in a different language before each group. It wouldnt cause some to say “they had too much new wine.” in response to this weird miracle. It doesn’t fit the evidence (or the church teachings) to say they were speaking sepreate languages.
 
Before we continue in this conversation I would like it to be completely clear that I intend this to be a conversation that is in love and kindness that is dedicated to finding (or arguing over :D) the truth no matter what it is. These arguments can get extremely heated and I don’t want anyone to go away with hatred. So, I hope no one takes this in the wrong way and I hope that no one gets offended. Now back to the topic 👍
I know what you mean, these do often get very heated! And I have so often been criticized for my words sounding harsh - which is not what I intend at ALL. So if it sounds harsh or offensive - don’t take offense! The truth trumps all!
 
@ Heuchler: I’ve actually never heard someone give an interpretation, but my experience is sadly rather limited. I have never heard someone give a message in tongues, either. There was never a case where someone would need an interpretation, from my experience it’s usually people praying quietly and reverently in tongues, such that it is abundantly clear that it is for prayer, and not instruction.

No, alright. Linguists have also looked at tongues, and found it to be real languages: French, Italian, but more commonly something less common: ancient forms of French, Hebrew, Arabic, dialects of Swahili… I can give you examples for each of those, but it’s all anecdotal evidence. I don’t have any actual documentation.

What some neurologists have found is very fascinating: nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html?_r=2&oref=slogin

In my experience, for me I absolutely do not control what words are coming out of my mouth. I am in full control of when I start and stop, but not the actual syllables. And seeing as the Church defines this as a real charism, and there are so many good reasons to desire this gift, that was good enough for me.
 
@ Heuchler: I’ve actually never heard someone give an interpretation, but my experience is sadly rather limited. I have never heard someone give a message in tongues, either. There was never a case where someone would need an interpretation, from my experience it’s usually people praying quietly and reverently in tongues, such that it is abundantly clear that it is for prayer, and not instruction.

No, alright. Linguists have also looked at tongues, and found it to be real languages: French, Italian, but more commonly something less common: ancient forms of French, Hebrew, Arabic, dialects of Swahili… I can give you examples for each of those, but it’s all anecdotal evidence. I don’t have any actual documentation.

What some neurologists have found is very fascinating: nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html?_r=2&oref=slogin

In my experience, for me I absolutely do not control what words are coming out of my mouth. I am in full control of when I start and stop, but not the actual syllables. And seeing as the Church defines this as a real charism, and there are so many good reasons to desire this gift, that was good enough for me.
But Paul implied that there would also be the tongues used for instruction. If this were from the Holy Spirit wouldn’t this aspect be more prominent for the edifacation of the church. And wouldn’t it fit that the main type of tongues that is visible would be the one that can’t be disproved?

And Linguists have stated that tongues is not based from languages. You can check this site to see charlesdailey.net/TonguesHolton.html

The neurology would fit with what I am saying. They are not TRYING to fake it. They phsyically are convinced that this is coming from God. But something similar happens to people who were able to be “knocked out” by this one guys chi. It was on Stan Lees superhumans on History. They tested the men to see if they were faking it. They were not faking it purposefully. However, it would only work on the man’s students and wouldn’t work on anyone else. However, there was no neurological evidence they were faking and were all totally sincere.

I think it is good that you are at least in control. The rest though would fit (at least to me) the fact that you aren’t faking but that you are subconsciously willing it to happen.
 
There are two types of “tongues” mentioned in the Bible. The first, described in Acts, are “known tongues.” This is where the Apostles proclaimed the Gospel in their own language, but many in the diverse crowd heard it in their own language. The only reason that people figured out that a miracle was taking place was because they saw that these diverse people all seemed to understand what was being said. But not everyone was able to understand.
First an observation. The Charismatic Renewal cannot be reduced to the gift of tongues, whether foreign languages or angelic. It seems, however, that all cessationists (Catholic or otherwise) seem to single out tongues in particular as the representative symbol of the movement. That strikes me as unbalanced since anyone familiar with the movement knows that tongues is a very small part of it. “Do all speak in tongues?” asks Paul. It’s a rhetorical question that expects “no” as the answer. I consider myself Charismatic (and Reformed!) but the only other tongue I speak is Spanish.

Second, in point of fact, the miracle you mention was one of speaking, not hearing. That is, “they began to speak in other tongues [or languages] as the Spirit gave them utterance” (2:4). So while the crowd was “hearing them speak in his own language” (v.6), that is because they were actually hearing Galileans speaking foreign languages. This was truly the miracle and not at all to be expected from provincial Galileans (cf, Mark 14:70) who were generally looked down upon for their funny accents and certainly not widely regarded as linguists.
It is not uncommon that miracles accompany new revelation but not continue. This sign “undid” what happened at Babel.
One hears this asserted quite a bit, especially in sermons. Unfortunately there is little to no indication in the text that Luke has Genesis 11 in mind. Far more likely is that he has the actual OT texts he goes on to cite, such as Joel 2. In any event, it’s a cool connection to make, but one that is hard to prove exegetically.
Then there are “unknown tongues” which is described in the First Epistle to the Corinthians.
That depends. While it may be possible to distinguish the “tongues of angels” (assuming Paul is speaking literally here) of 1 Cor. 13:1 from the other “tongues” mentioned in the letter, there is really no reason to suppose that the tongues in question were in every case “unknown” to the speaker. In other words, when we compare “tongues” in Acts to “tongues” in 1 Corinthians, it’s quite possible that it’s not so much “tongues” that are different but rather the audiences in each venue. In Jerusalem there were Jews from all over the Roman world gathered, and so they would be expected to speak different languages. But in Corinth they were probably speaking Greek and not, say, Arabic (cf, Acts 2:10) which was one of the languages that the Galileans were speaking.

That said, I think you’re correct that most of the time Paul has an unintelligible language in mind that he associates with prayer and praise.
This was a liturgical abuse, and Paul chastised them for it.
In a worship setting, tongues should be used sparingly and only with interpretation (cf, 1 Corinthians 14:26-28.) So to be clear, Paul only chastises the Corinthians for the abuse of tongues, not the use of tongues in public worship.
There is not one verse in Scripture that is favorable to speaking in unknown tongues.
[Sigh] “Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy” (1 Cor. 14:5). Would you like to see more verses?
At any rate, neither known nor unknown tongues were practiced by any Christian community since the very early days. The Church Fathers tell us that the practice ceased:
That’s highly debatable. That said, the fact that the “Charismatic gifts” may have ceased to be practiced may say more about the sorry state of the church than the desire of the Holy Spirit to gift those who ask for them.

In any event, it strikes me as funny that if the Jewish fathers say that prophecy had ceased sometime during the so-called “intertestamental period,” Catholics will disagree with them since if they’re right, then none of the dueterocanonical books could be regarded as inspired. The parallel is striking. Jewish “cessationists” witness to the departure of the Spirit of prophecy in much the same as Christian “cessationists” argue that the “sign gifts” [a dubious category imposed on scripture] ceased with the death of the last apostle and/or the closing of the New Testament canon. But where is the indication in Scripture that a certain category of spiritual gifts would come to an end during the church age?

Continued next post…
 
Continued from previous post…
Occasionally, great Doctors of the Church reveal to us deeper insight into Catholic spirituality. But the whole Charismatic movement did not begin with any Catholic Doctor or Saint – it started with the students of a disenfranchised Holiness preacher with a lot of wacky ideas and who had a hard time keeping his pants buttoned, and who could not even muster credibility within the movement that he started.
I thought the movement began at Pentecost with the Holy Spirit. As for the moral failures of those who are open to the movement, well that’s hardly a surprise. Just read 1 Corinthians to get a feel for those who can be both sexually immoral and yet “Charismatic” in spirituality at the same time.

One thought to consider. For many from liturgical traditions the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” (scriptural terminology) is virtually identical to water baptism. This is a huge exegetical mistake. For while the Spirit is certainly active in water baptism, the baptism of the Spirit is not the same thing. If anything it is what “confirmation” is supposed to be. The reception of the Holy Spirit cannot be reduced to an ontological formula or a subconscious belief. For far too many professing Christians, the Holy Spirit is someone who indwells them because they have been told that He is somehow “there” even though they have felt and experienced nothing of His power. That, however, is utterly unlike what we read in the Bible where upon belief people experienced the Holy Spirit in much the same way the OT prophets did. The Holy Spirit isn’t an idea, but a person who indwells us and can, as the Spirit wills, give us gifts as he sees fit. But in my experience those gifts are only given to those who seek them and are disposed to using them for the purpose for which they are given.

Story: When I was Catholic I once went to a daily mass where the Rosary was prayed prior to the mass. While waiting I saw a flyer for a “healing mass” on a bulletin board at another parish. I had a lump in my chest that I was worried about. I just “knew” God wanted my at that mass and not at the Rosary. So I left. I got there just as it started. The priest was a “Charismatic Catholic” from Spain. (I forgot his name). I went up for healing and was thinking I would have to tell him my problem. No. He already knew. He put his hand precisely on the part of my chest that I was worried about. He assured me that I was fine and that I didn’t have to worry for me or my family. The next day I went to the doctor and it turns out that the lump was just a benign lipoma. Coincidence? Miracle? Lucky guess? You can interpret it as you will. But I know that even the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit are alive and well in the body of Christ across denominations, including the Catholic Church.

One last comment on tongues and interpretation. At my church some do speak in tongues on occasion during a designated part of the worship service. I’ve only ever heard one or two give a tongue in worship and in every case there has always been an interpretation given. In a prayer meeting I was once given the interpretation for the others and had no idea that what I was saying was actually meant very specifically for other people gathered there. It should hardly surprise us that God sometimes uses others to speak to us. If he can speak through a donkey he can speak through me. That’s what I always say. I’ve also been the one spoken to through the interpretation. Have you ever been “cut to the heart” or said been utterly “undone” like Isaiah in chapter 6? Well I have. And it’s been through the interpretation of a tongue given in the worship service, done tastefully and without a lot of noisy gong attention-gathering to oneself.

Disclaimer: Yes, I’ve seen a lot of noisy going attention-gathering too by those who “think” they have gifts that they probably don’t have and who are most likely compensating for their own sense of smallness and inadequacy by trying to act like super apostles. But when this happens, we have elders in our church who discretely, yet firmly talk to such unbalanced souls and seldom if ever do you hear from them again. So yes, there can be abuses. But as the old dictum says: Abusus non tollit usum. Abuse does not negate the [proper] use. The gift of marriage is abused. Should we do away with that just because the divorce rate is over 50%? Teaching is a spiritual gift. Did that cease in the apostolic age? If not, then why say tongues did?
 
But Paul implied that there would also be the tongues used for instruction. If this were from the Holy Spirit wouldn’t this aspect be more prominent for the edifacation of the church. And wouldn’t it fit that the main type of tongues that is visible would be the one that can’t be disproved?

And Linguists have stated that tongues is not based from languages. You can check this site to see charlesdailey.net/TonguesHolton.html

The neurology would fit with what I am saying. They are not TRYING to fake it. They phsyically are convinced that this is coming from God. But something similar happens to people who were able to be “knocked out” by this one guys chi. It was on Stan Lees superhumans on History. They tested the men to see if they were faking it. They were not faking it purposefully. However, it would only work on the man’s students and wouldn’t work on anyone else. However, there was no neurological evidence they were faking and were all totally sincere.

I think it is good that you are at least in control. The rest though would fit (at least to me) the fact that you aren’t faking but that you are subconsciously willing it to happen.
They should both be in use.

The thing with tongues has to be taken on a case by case basis. I notice that article is examining Protestant Pentecostals, of which I am considerably more skeptical about. I have also heard linguists recognize languages as well. One of the leaders in the Catholic charismatic movement was asked once after a charismatic event if he could speak in tongues for someone. The person was a linguist, and identified the language as a ancient precursor to French. The linguist himself was one of the only people in the world who knew that language and could identify it.

Let me give you another anecdotal story… there was a priest, from Uganda, visiting a charismatic parish in the United States. He was saying the Mass, and he was skeptical of the charismatic gifts. In the Mass, they have special permission to speak in tongues after the Gloria, and while they were doing this, the acolyte behind him began to speak in the priest’s native Swahili dialect from his village in Uganda. He had absolutely no knowledge of Swahili. I could give you a number of stories like that, where people have been speaking real languages. My own language often has sounded very Middle-eastern, and I so often catch words like “Maryam”. At other times it has sounded more Asian.

@ Miguel Sastre: Thank you very much for your posts.
 
Without going into a long explanation, ***the nine classical gifts of the Holy Spirit ***can be rare depending on geographical location. These gifts can be mimicked and abused so sometimes it is hard to tell if they are genuine. In a Catholic setting, there are usually experienced charismatics who will discern the genuineness of an individual’s experience of a gift. This does not necessarily mean that the person is bad.
I find it odd that the Church has always taught the Seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit, not nine.

google.com/cse?cx=008187825485874300314%3A1bfkl0u3vji&ie=UTF-8&q=seven+gifts+of+the+holy+spirit

While I believe most “speaking in tongues” is either fake or an emotional result of being psyched up (it’s amazing what the mind can make the body do through manipulation whether the person is aware of it or not); the Church has addressed speaking in unknown tongues…
ability to
speak with some facility in a strange tongue or to understand it
when spoken by another; the faculty of divulging future and
hidden events; display of powers which are beyond the subject’s
age and natural condition; and various other indications which,
when taken together as a whole, build up the evidence.
ewtn.com/library/prayer/roman2.txt
I’m not saying the above quote is the case, but the Church says it is a possibility.

As for those who claim the Holy Spirit had been neglected in the Church prior to CCR, the Church has always taught the faithful since the time of their youth to recite the following prayer…
Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful and enkindle in them the fire of Thy love.
V. Send forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created.
R. And Thou shalt renew the face of the earth.
Let us pray. O God, Who didst instruct the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy Spirit, grant us in the same Spirit to be truly wise, and ever to rejoice in His consolation. Through Christ our Lord.
If you think the Holy Spirit has been under aknowledged prior to CCR, I challenge you to count how many times the Holy Spirit is invoked not only in traditional Catholic prayers, but how many times the Holy Spirit is invoked throughout the Holy Mass itself. Neglect has never been the case.

One prime example is the Sign of The Cross “In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
 
Yes but Paul also said that there is to be interpretation with tongues if it isn’t understandable. For the most part, I have not heard of the gift of interpretation, nor of an orderly form of tongues which Paul described but the compulsary form in which people can’t control it.
There is no compulsory form of tongues which cannot be controlled. If someone cannot control his speech then he is doing something else. This would not be the gift of tongues.

One of the first things Catholics learn is that the common gift of praying in tongues is always under control of the person who freely decides when to begin praying in tongues and when to stop.

There are two, yes two distinct gifts of tongues. First,
there is the common gift of praying in tongues to God obviously.

In order to understand the second gift of tongues, one has to shift focus to the reason for the nine gifts listed by St. Paul. These nine gifts are to help build up the Catholic Church. They are directed outward for the good of others. It takes intense preparation before a person receives one or more of these nine gifts.

The second gift of tongues is speaking the word of God to the community. The person with this gift yields to the Holy Spirit. “Tongues” means that the person submits to the Holy Spirit to the extent that the Holy Spirit forms the language. This language is not the vernacular. St. Paul then teaches that there be another person with the gift of interpretation. This companion also yields to the Holy Spirit so that he or she can speak God’s word to the community in the vernacular.
The fact that there is practically no difference between the fakers and the real is what causes me to question their validity.
Have you been to a valid Catholic prayer group? I don’t necessarily mean a convention or large meeting. I mean a real prayer group gathering in one of the Church’s community or meeting rooms. I am not referring to the mixed or combined groups.
Linguists have looked at tongues and found that it is not language but gibberish.
As I said above, in order to pray in tongues, the person yields to the Holy Spirit. This means that the Holy Spirit forms the language so that the prayer is what it should be. This language is directed to God.

I do hope that no one is saying that the Holy Spirit uses gibberish. :eek:
Paul always paired tongues and interpretations, you hardly ever find interpretations.
As I said above, there are two kinds of tongues.

I do hope that no one is saying that God needs an interpreter when someone is praying to Him.
 
I find it odd that the Church has always taught the Seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit, not nine.

google.com/cse?cx=008187825485874300314%3A1bfkl0u3vji&ie=UTF-8&q=seven+gifts+of+the+holy+spirit
The Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit are also known as the Isaiah Gifts. They are derived from Isaiah 11: 1-3. They are wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, piety, fortitude, and fear of the Lord. (source: Glossary, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition)

Your link is a good source of information.

The Charismatic Gifts of the Holy Spirit are part of the Catholic Church following Pentecost. Actually, there are many Gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Acts such as various ministries.
What is now considered “charismatic gifts” are the specific ones mentioned as gifts to help build up the Church. The gift of praying in tongues is available to all so that they can pray “constantly.”
 
They should both be in use.

The thing with tongues has to be taken on a case by case basis. I notice that article is examining Protestant Pentecostals, of which I am considerably more skeptical about. I have also heard linguists recognize languages as well. One of the leaders in the Catholic charismatic movement was asked once after a charismatic event if he could speak in tongues for someone. The person was a linguist, and identified the language as a ancient precursor to French. The linguist himself was one of the only people in the world who knew that language and could identify it.

Let me give you another anecdotal story… there was a priest, from Uganda, visiting a charismatic parish in the United States. He was saying the Mass, and he was skeptical of the charismatic gifts. In the Mass, they have special permission to speak in tongues after the Gloria, and while they were doing this, the acolyte behind him began to speak in the priest’s native Swahili dialect from his village in Uganda. He had absolutely no knowledge of Swahili. I could give you a number of stories like that, where people have been speaking real languages. My own language often has sounded very Middle-eastern, and I so often catch words like “Maryam”. At other times it has sounded more Asian.

@ Miguel Sastre: Thank you very much for your posts.
Still, there are practically no accounts of tongues in which there is an interpreter. The only form is the one that can’t be disproved. That seems very weird. Why would the Holy Spirit so freely perform this gift while completely forget the one that works for the edifactation of the Church.
And while those two accounts may be true, that doesn’t prove anything except that it happened then (and even then the proof is not conclusive). For the main part, there isn’t a translation used for edifying the church. This causes tongues to seem to be something we can’t disprove and has little foundation.
And grannymh
yes I would never say the Holy Spirit speaks in gibberish, thats why I don’t believe it.
Yes, I don’t believe God needs an interpreter or even words for “your Father knows what you need before you ask”
Tongues seems to be something that appeared in Pentacostal churches that is a result from the longing to reach the divine. This longing is present in everyone which is why it is popular to many who believe that those things are real.
 
Still, there are practically no accounts of tongues in which there is an interpreter. The only form is the one that can’t be disproved. That seems very weird. Why would the Holy Spirit so freely perform this gift while completely forget the one that works for the edifactation of the Church.
And while those two accounts may be true, that doesn’t prove anything except that it happened then (and even then the proof is not conclusive). For the main part, there isn’t a translation used for edifying the church. This causes tongues to seem to be something we can’t disprove and has little foundation.
And grannymh
yes I would never say the Holy Spirit speaks in gibberish, thats why I don’t believe it.
Yes, I don’t believe God needs an interpreter or even words for “your Father knows what you need before you ask”
Tongues seems to be something that appeared in Pentacostal churches that is a result from the longing to reach the divine. This longing is present in everyone which is why it is popular to many who believe that those things are real.
I give up.
I am unsubscribing to this thread.
 
I find it odd that the Church has always taught the Seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit, not nine.
The Church has always taught that there are many gifts which are bestowed by the Spirit. There are the 7 Sanctifying gifts, that everyone receives at Confirmation. There are the 12 fruits of the Holy Spirit. There are the 9 charismatic gifts, see 1 Corinthians 12, that everyone receives varying degrees of. These gifts are specifically meant for service to the Church.

@ Heuchler: I have heard of plenty of cases where people have given a message in tongues, and others have interpreted. But sorry, that’s not up to the people there. It’s the Holy Spirit who gives the message, and the interpretation.

Tongues was more prevalent in the early Church, but individual saints have been known to have it. It is now becoming more common.

I suggest that you complain to the Holy Spirit and St. Paul, not the charismatic movement. Or maybe if you yourself had the gift of tongues, you’d be able to understand things better.

@ grannymh: thank you for your posts, I have found them very edifying.
 
Personally, I see no proof for it. And I think God wants a world where we don’t need all these signs and wonders for us to rely on him. Blessed are they who have not seen and believed, blessed are they who don’t speak in tongues and believe, blessed are they who don’t prophesy yet believe. Blessed are they who are rooted in the faith without miracles. It is this world God wants. Yes He will use it to help, but I think he would use His miracles more to edify His church as a whole instead of focusing mainly on attendents to certain meetings. And thats just it. These miracles aren’t for everyone. If it were so common that I could have it the same as everyone else it wouldn’t be a miracle. I shouldn’t have to have this miracle to understand it.
 
The Church has always taught that there are many gifts which are bestowed by the Spirit. There are the 7 Sanctifying gifts, that everyone receives at Confirmation. There are the 12 fruits of the Holy Spirit. There are the 9 charismatic gifts, see 1 Corinthians 12, that everyone receives varying degrees of. These gifts are specifically meant for service to the Church.
Which Church document speaks of 9 charismatic gifts? I can’t find it.

I can only find protestant sources such as this: bible-knowledge.com/gifts-of-the-holy-spirit/ that list the 9 charasmatic gifts.

I can’t find it in the catechism either.

I can’t find nine

but I can find seven.
 
Which Church document speaks of 9 charismatic gifts? I can’t find it.

I can only find protestant sources such as this: bible-knowledge.com/gifts-of-the-holy-spirit/ that list the 9 charasmatic gifts.

I can’t find it in the catechism either.

I can’t find nine

but I can find seven.
See 1 Corinthinas 12 (which is, you know, the Bible and the Word of God). Lumen gentium 12.

See CCC paragraphs 797 to 801. I can give you a whole load of stuff from theologians, spiritual writers, Doctors and Fathers of the Church, and Popes. St. Thomas Aquinas has a whole section in the ST about them. amazon.com/Summa-Theologiae-Prophecy-Cambridge-University/dp/0521029538/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1306802085&sr=8-3-fkmr1
 
See 1 Corinthinas 12 (which is, you know, the Bible and the Word of God). Lumen gentium 12.

See CCC paragraphs 797 to 801. I can give you a whole load of stuff from theologians, spiritual writers, Doctors and Fathers of the Church, and Popes. St. Thomas Aquinas has a whole section in the ST about them.
The underlined part above was unnecessary.

1 Cor 12 – Scripture means and says many things to many people.

I can find no Church teaching on the nine charismatic gifts. I can only find those identifying themselves as Charismatic teaching this (as well as protestants).
I only mention protestatants because they are the only source other than CCR I can find. It is not a jab.
If CCR is in question, quoting them as source is not proof.

The Church has always taught the Seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit are infused in Christians *in Baptism *and *sealed *in Confirmation.

As for CCC 797 to 801 and Lumen Gentium 12, They do speak of charisms. But they do not teach that there are nine charismatic gifts of The Holy Spirit.

Bringing the Summa Theologica into it and linking to an ad to buy it? A link to the passages would have been more appropriate.

If nine gifts have always been taught, I am having a hard time finding historical, traditional sources of this teaching.
 
The Church has always taught the Seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit are infused in Christians *in Baptism *and *sealed *in Confirmation.
Yes, that’s the theory. A lot of churches teach similar things along these lines–e.g., that when one becomes a believer the Holy Spirit makes a home in him/her. That’s what we’re all told. The trouble is, that’s not how Scripture describes the activity of the Holy Spirit in the believer. Read the New Testament, especially Acts. The Holy Spirit is experienced. Jesus tells his followers that by persistent prayer and seeking the Father is more than willing to give the Holy Spirit to those who ask (cf, Luke 11:13). Jesus distinguishes water baptism (of John) to Baptism in the Holy Spirit, which most certainly isn’t the sacramental baptism of liturgical churches. Jesus tells his disciples (who, presumably, were already baptized) that they would be “baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). Jesus promises that his disciples “will be clothed in power” (Luke 24:49).

In other words, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a theoretical infusion of gifts, but rather an actual experience of those gifts. How many millions of Catholic, Episcopalian, and Lutheran kids are “confirmed” each year (and therefore must have the gift of “fortitude”) and yet as soon as their CCD obligations are over never darken a church door again, and/or quickly succumb to a worldly way of life (assuming, of course that they were not already worldly when the began preparing for confirmation)?

Consider Paul’s words: "And he said to them, ‘Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?’ And they said, ‘No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit’” (Acts 19:2).

Observation: About the only difference between the Ephesians in Acts 19 and so many modern Catholics, Episcopalians et alia is that, if properly catechized, they’ve at least heard of the Holy Spirit. But just like the Ephesians whom Paul is addressing, they clearly haven’t experienced or received the Holy Spirit yet. Again, it’s not a theoretical reception, but an actual one.
If nine gifts have always been taught, I am having a hard time finding historical, traditional sources of this teaching.
Ah yes, the so-called “nine sign gifts.” These are often distinguished from the “permanent” gifts of the Spirit. But there really is no good reason for saying the nine are “temporary.” We have no reason to believe that any gifts of the Holy Spirit are in the “temporary” category. Correction. “When the perfect comes,” then we can expect “the partial to be done away with,” which would include gifts such as tongues, prophecy and knowledge. But until then–that is–until Christ comes again in glory to consummate all things, we cannot say “the perfect has come.” Therefore we cannot yet say, “the partial has been done away with,” and therefore we cannot marginalize the so-called “nine sign gifts” from the so-called “permanent” gifts of the Spirit. The distinction is a man-made tradition–not a biblical one, which envisions the gifts of the Spirit continuing until “the perfect comes.” See 1 Corinthians 13 for proof of this point.
 
I found this in the Baltimore’s Catechism #3

Q. 448. Why are these sign’s not continued everywhere at present time?
A. these sign’s are not continued everywhere at present time, because now that the Church is fully established and its divine character and power proved in other ways, such signs are no longer necessary.
 
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