Thoughts on Charasmatic Renewal

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It’s not a theory. It’s what the Church teaches
***“The specific operation of Confirmation is the perfection of Baptismal Grace”. ***
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[A Summary of the Dogmas and Teachings of the Catholic Church
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Taken from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott](A Summary of the Dogmas and Teachings of the Church)
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I just can’t find the same said of 9 charismatic gifts, let alone their being received through ‘baptism in the spirit’ or ‘slain in the spirit’.
 
@justtryin:
Lumen gentium cites 1 Corinthinas 12. Actually, their discussion on charisms was an almost miraculous intervention. They had originally planned to leave out mention, because someone claimed that “the charisms aren’t for this age”. Cardinal Suenens stepped in, claiming they were for this age. Thus ensued an interesting discussion on the charisms, in which they talked specifically in the context of the 9 charismatic gifts. This is pure grace, since this was years before any genuine charismatic renewal was to occur in the Church - though it was a catalyst for the renewal. What Paul is saying there is obvious. We are each given the manifestation of the Spirit to ALL for the common good (the word for manifestation is φανέρωσις which implies an empirical, vivid, brilliant manifestation - like the light of the sun). That means, those charisms he just listed. This list isn’t exhaustive, but look at it. If you notice none of those charisms are evident in your life, you’re probably missing something. I’m willing to bet they are, however. If you need definitions and explanations, ask.

I just posted on another thread a huge long list of quotes, and you can view that thread, this thread, and several others, for more. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8339105&postcount=145 (I hope that link works).
 
Irish_Polock said:
I found this in the Baltimore’s Catechism #3

Q. 448. Why are these sign’s not continued everywhere at present time?
A. these sign’s are not continued everywhere at present time, because now that the Church is fully established and its divine character and power proved in other ways, such signs are no longer necessary.
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I disagree, and so does the official Catechism, Scripture, the Popes, Bishops, Council documents, and many distinguished theologians, church fathers, saints and Doctors.

The Church is not fully established, if you hadn’t noticed. There are still loads of people out there who aren’t Catholic, don’t know Jesus, and haven’t received the Holy Spirit and the sacraments. The Holy Spirit is the primary evangelist. I don’t think you have much experience with evangelizing if you think the signs aren’t needed any more.
 
justtryin said:
It’s not a theory. It’s what the Church teaches

I just can’t find the same said of 9 charismatic gifts, let alone their being received through ‘baptism in the spirit’ or ‘slain in the spirit’.
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Unfortunately, they’ve been stupidly ignored for a long time.
 
vardaquinn said:
@justtryin:
Lumen gentium cites 1 Corinthinas 12. Actually, their discussion on charisms was an almost miraculous intervention. They had originally planned to leave out mention, because someone claimed that “the charisms aren’t for this age”. Cardinal Suenens stepped in, claiming they were for this age. Thus ensued an interesting discussion on the charisms, in which they talked specifically in the context of the 9 charismatic gifts. This is pure grace, since this was years before any genuine charismatic renewal was to occur in the Church - though it was a catalyst for the renewal. What Paul is saying there is obvious. We are each given the manifestation of the Spirit to ALL for the common good (the word for manifestation is φανέρωσις which implies an empirical, vivid, brilliant manifestation - like the light of the sun). That means, those charisms he just listed. This list isn’t exhaustive, but look at it. If you notice none of those charisms are evident in your life, you’re probably missing something. I’m willing to bet they are, however. If you need definitions and explanations, ask.

I just posted on another thread a huge long list of quotes, and you can view that thread, this thread, and several others, for more. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8339105&postcount=145 (I hope that link works).
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Lumen Gentium does not speak of 9 charismatic gifts of the Holy Ghost.

That phrase was brought up twice and I have yet to find it in Church teaching. The only place I find it is Charismatic or protestant. No mention of it in historical or traditional Church teachings.

I still cant find this claim verified either:
Yes, well St. Augustine recanted his position in his last book when so many miraculous and charismatic activities happened at his cathedral, from post 50
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justtryin said:
Lumen Gentium does not speak of 9 charismatic gifts of the Holy Ghost.

That phrase was brought up twice and I have yet to find it in Church teaching. The only place I find it is Charismatic or protestant. No mention of it in historical or traditional Church teachings.

I still cant find this claim verified either:
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Are you looking for the explicit term “9 charismatic gifts”? Well, if you go to 1 Corinthinas 12, which all the teachings on charisms cite as their source, Paul gives 9 examples of charisms. You count those, and they come out to 9. Like in Isaiah, there are 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit. You count those, and they come out to 7. Hence… 9 charismatic gifts. St. Thomas Aquinas adds to that list, and it’s not exhaustive, as opposed to the 7, so that’s probably why they’re not so commonly referred to as the 9 charismatic gifts, but just charisms or charismata. Papal infallibility, for instance, is a charism of the Holy spirit according to the CCC.

Sorry, I’ll have to dig it out again. Might take me a while, since I don’t have a copy. Basically, a lot of miracles (especially of healing, but also things like being slain in the spirit) happened at his cathedral.
 
vardaquinn said:
Are you looking for the explicit term “9 charismatic gifts”? Well, if you go to 1 Corinthinas 12, which all the teachings on charisms cite as their source, Paul gives 9 examples of charisms. You count those, and they come out to 9. Like in Isaiah, there are 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit. You count those, and they come out to 7. Hence… 9 charismatic gifts. St. Thomas Aquinas adds to that list, and it’s not exhaustive, as opposed to the 7, so that’s probably why they’re not so commonly referred to as the 9 charismatic gifts, but just charisms or charismata. Papal infallibility, for instance, is a charism of the Holy spirit according to the CCC.

Sorry, I’ll have to dig it out again. Might take me a while, since I don’t have a copy. Basically, a lot of miracles (especially of healing, but also things like being slain in the spirit) happened at his cathedral.
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Yes, Paul lists 9 spiritual gifts. But where does the Church teach these as the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit in the same manner She has taught The Seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit.
 
justtryin said:
Yes, Paul lists 9 spiritual gifts. But where does the Church teach these as the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit in the same manner She has taught The Seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit.
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Clarify. They’re different, and serve different purposes. What do you mean “in the same manner”.
 
vardaquinn said:
I disagree, and so does the official Catechism, Scripture, the Popes, Bishops, Council documents, and many distinguished theologians, church fathers, saints and Doctors.

The Church is not fully established, if you hadn’t noticed. There are still loads of people out there who aren’t Catholic, don’t know Jesus, and haven’t received the Holy Spirit and the sacraments. The Holy Spirit is the primary evangelist. I don’t think you have much experience with evangelizing if you think the signs aren’t needed any more.
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I find that evangelization comes through love, kindness, and the truth, not people laughing, crying, falling uncontrollably, and speaking in what appears to be gibberish. This would scare me away if I this was what I saw as a possible convert. It doesn’t seem to prove any point in favor of Catholicism even though these signs are supposed to help. However, most signs that edify the church aren’t found anymore (such as tongues **and **interpretation, prophecy, genuine healings, universal language, and anything else that would work for evangelization).
And Augustine actually taught the view that tongues were carried on not supernaturally but in the fact that the church is in every nation and uses every language.
 
vardaquinn said:
Clarify. They’re different, and serve different purposes. What do you mean “in the same manner”.
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Different & with different purposes?

Take two steps away from CCR. Look close and you will see

Seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit being replaced with nine gifts.

Baptism & Confirmation being replaced with “baptism in the spirit” and “slain in the spirit”

No offense intended. It is only what I see.
 
justtryin said:
Yes, Paul lists 9 spiritual gifts. But where does the Church teach these as the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit in the same manner She has taught The Seven Gifts of The Holy Spirit.
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The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the individual, to enable them to become holier persons for the building up of the Body of Christ.

The charismatic gifts (charismata) are given to one person for the group, or for another person. For the building up of the Body of Christ.
 
Dorothy said:
The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the individual, to enable them to become holier persons for the building up of the Body of Christ.

The charismatic gifts (charismata) are given to one person for the group, or for another person. For the building up of the Body of Christ.
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Yep. 👍
 
Dorothy said:
The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the individual, to enable them to become holier persons for the building up of the Body of Christ.

The charismatic gifts (charismata) are given to one person for the group, or for another person. For the building up of the Body of Christ.
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I can find this in church documents:
1845 **The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit bestowed upon Christians are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. ** CCC
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But I cannot find a Church teaching about the nine gifts and their manner of reception.
If it is historical, traditional teaching, I should be able to find it quite easily in multiple places. I am looking. But I’m having no luck finding.
 
justtryin said:
I can find this in church documents:

But I cannot find a Church teaching about the nine gifts and their manner of reception.
If it is historical, traditional teaching, I should be able to find it quite easily in multiple places. I am looking. But I’m having no luck finding.
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CCC 799 to 801. Plus what I have already linked, especially Lg. It is historical traditional teaching, but it has been largely ignored for a long time.
 
vardaquinn said:
CCC 799 to 801. Plus what I have already linked, especially Lg. It is historical traditional teaching, but it has been largely ignored for a long time.
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But they do not speak of nine gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Search The Vatican and the Catechism. No where can I find anything about there being nine specific gifts of the Holy Spirit. They do speak of Seven specific Gifts of The Holy Spirit.

I have searched all over and as I said, I cannot find any teaching on nine specific gifts.
I have found quite alot about Seven specific Gifts.

I can only find nine specific gifts listed by Charismatics and Protestants.

The desciption of “nine charismatic gifts” was given twice, but no where can I find the Church teaching this. Where does the Church specifically teach 1 Cor 12 as nine gifts to be desired. Or that they are bestowed upon Christians the way She teaches on the Seven Gifts.
 
justtryin said:
But they do not speak of nine gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Search The Vatican and the Catechism. No where can I find anything about there being nine specific gifts of the Holy Spirit. They do speak of Seven specific Gifts of The Holy Spirit.

I have searched all over and as I said, I cannot find any teaching on nine specific gifts.
I have found quite alot about Seven specific Gifts.

I can only find nine specific gifts listed by Charismatics and Protestants.

The desciption of “nine charismatic gifts” was given twice, but no where can I find the Church teaching this. Where does the Church specifically teach 1 Cor 12 as nine gifts to be desired. Or that they are bestowed upon Christians the way She teaches on the Seven Gifts.
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When they speak of “charismatic gifts” they are referring to the 9 laid out in 1 Corinthinans (especially evident when they cite that as a footnote). Search instead charisms, charismatic gifts, or charisma or something along those lines.
 
gtrenewed said:
Since when has St.Paul lost his position as a teacher in the Catholic Church?

And when has Scripture lost its position as a Catholic Church document?
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I don’t deny Paul or the Scriptures. But the Bible says and means many things to many people. How are we to know which is correct? Christ left us a Church for that purpose.
His teaching, and that of other Holy Fathers, is taken up by the Council of the Vatican, which, in renewing the decree of Trent declares its “mind” to be this - that “in things of faith and morals, belonging to the building up of Christian doctrine, that is to be considered the true sense of Holy Scripture which has been held and is held by our Holy Mother the Church, whose place it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the Scriptures; and therefore that it is permitted to no one to interpret Holy Scripture against such sense or also against the unanimous agreement of the Fathers.”
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Hence it follows that all interpretation is foolish and false which either makes the sacred writers disagree one with another, or is opposed to the doctrine of the Church. The Professor of Holy Scripture, therefore, amongst other recommendations, must be well acquainted with the whole circle of Theology and deeply read in the commentaries of the Holy Fathers and Doctors, and other interpreters of mark.
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Wherefore, as no one should be so presumptuous as to think that he understands the whole of the Scripture, in which St. Augustine himself confessed that there was more that he did not know, than that he knew,(62) so, if he should come upon anything that seems incapable of solution, he must take to heart the cautious rule of the same holy Doctor: "It is better even to be oppressed by unknown but useful signs, than to interpret them uselessly and thus to throw off the yoke only to be caught in the trap of error. "
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PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
ON THE STUDY OF HOLY SCRIPTURE

If The Scriptures mean what someone claims it to say, that teaching will be confirmed by the teachings of the Church. If it doesn’t, that makes it a new teaching.
 
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