Thoughts on Charasmatic Renewal

[fxcc]

Every instance of prophecy or revelation does not have to be telling someone’s future, etc. QUOTE]

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but my firm understanding is that genuine prophecies are **never **about the **future **- which only God knows. Rather, “prophecies” are messages from heaven to help us better understand the present times, and how and where we should consequently be directing our spiritual labors. Even the Mother of God, when she speaks about the future in her (genuine) apparitions always qualifies it with some condition or other: if this, then that, if not this, then such and such.

Yet, every second (or more) alleged prophecy which I hear from the mouths of Charismatic Christians is about some event that is predicted to definitely occur in coming hours, days, weeks or months. Often involving the most trivial of things too. In other words, prophecy = looking into a crystal ball, according to this variety.

What’s with that? Anyone care to comment/explain?

Thanks.

 

[MikeBat]

The Catholic Church has spoken on the question of Charisms.
The Catholic questioner inquired about the Charismatic Renewal but most responses seem to focus on “tongues”. St. Augustine did say in a Homily that “…the sign has passed away” but I was taught in my Villanova Religion class, by Augustinian Priests, that the “charisms” have always been, and always will be, part of the Catholic Church. It goes to show that even Saints don’t necessarily know everything and make some mistakes - for we ALL fall short of the glory of God.
I have heard some impressive witness to the gift of tongues. For example, an emergency room nurse speaking English to a family member of a patient that didn’t understand English and being understood by the patient in Spanish and another in French. As far as praying in a “prayer tongue” I know of one Catholic “Charismatic” that prayed over a woman with her “prayer tongue” and was told by a language scholar that was present that she had prayed the “Our Father” in ancient Aramaic, a language that was no longer in use.
While it is true that all Gifts from God are subject to one’s free will so may at times be misused, charisms are in fact, according to the Catholic Church, “…special graces, also called charisms…- sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended fot the common good of the church”. Catechism Par. 2003.
I’m glad that I believed in the charisms when I was scheduled for surgery to remove a lung with cancer. My home church Charismatic Prayer Group prayed for my healing as did Priests and many friends including a Catholic woman that came to the hospital. She Blessed me with Blessed Oil for use by the laity, laid hands on me and prayed that my lung cancer be healed. I “knew” that the lung cancer was gone. I cancelled the surgery and requested a second Broncoscopy. The cancer was gone.
The charisms are referred to favorably in the Catechism of the Catholic Church in Paragraphs: 688, 798, 799, 800, 801, 809, 910, 951, 2003, and 2024.

 

[vardaquinn]

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but my firm understanding is that genuine prophecies are never about the future - which only God knows.

Well, they sometimes are. For instance, there are a good many prophecies in the Old Testament that fortell the coming of Christ and the events that are to take place in our salvation. But generally, I shouldn’t expect to see very many, if any at all. Especially seeing as Christ has come, and most of the prophecies of Scripture have been fulfilled. Though I have heard stories of people being given a prophetic word of knowledge, for instance in the lives of some saints. Often people are given the gift of great faith in some future event. I could list many stories from the lives of the saints and other places like this.

Yet, every second (or more) alleged prophecy which I hear from the mouths of Charismatic Christians is about some event that is predicted to definitely occur in coming hours, days, weeks or months. Often involving the most trivial of things too. In other words, prophecy = looking into a crystal ball, according to this variety.

Huh, I’ve never heard a prophecy like that. Generally, they are like God speaking to a person or community in the first person through the mouth of someone else. If these events do occur, then they might indeed be genuine. If they do not, as they are predicted, I highly doubt it.

 

[Witzy]

I did my research some years ago, back before the predominance of the Internet. My primary source was an actual book (remember those?) - namely the Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements by Burgess & McGee - a 914 page hardcover reference that is an absolute steal at the $1.12 price currently offered as for a “used” volume on Amazon. It is an indispensable resource for anyone interested in the development of “Charismatic Christianity.”

This is a protestant (Zondervan) publication intended to support the practice (so protestants have slim recourse to contest the factual aspects of this tome). Thus, I’m sure it is influential to many protestants. But informed Catholics can find much fault with this publication.

David, and Mothballs too,

Perhaps you have become a little too zealous in your condemnation of the Charismatic Renewal movement. You may be disappointed that I am not going to provide a defense of the Charismatic Movement, and certainly I am not going to defend the caricature of the Charismatic Movement within the Catholic Church that you have presented.
I too have problems with many of those who today call themselves Charismatics (others surely have problems with me), but I am also aware that this renewal was a force of renewal in many parishes. It also caused many people to leave the Catholic Church.

I guess I would like to ask you to consider Jn 3:8’s “You know neither from where it comes nor where it goes, but the Spirit blows where it will”. Throughout history, it has always been folly to try to define the limits and boundaries of God’s Holy Spirit. So I simply ask you to exercise prudence in your opinions. I do not believe that the historical underpinnings of Americal Pentecostalism/Assemblies of God represent in any meaningful way the genesis of this movement. 80,000 (mostly Catholic) people gathered in Ann Arbor Michigan at the height of this renewal, and that event, and others like it, had nothing to do with the things that you explained but more to what I believe was a movement of the Holy Spirit. Those I know who were evangelized into their Catholic faith by this movement are some of the most orthodox and dynamic Catholics that I know, and some of your comments here are a bit smug and hurtful to such as these people.

Finally, the founder of the Companions of the Cross in Ottawa, Rev. Bob Bedard was known to say that every Catholic is a (called to be a) Charismatic Catholic, in that all Catholics are called to exercise the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He felt that the Charismatic movement bore fruit where the weekly prayer meeting got out of the church basement and came in the front door of the Church, and as these people got involved in the sacramental life of the Church. I saw where that happened, and also where it did not.
Peace,

 

[ltwin]

ltwin;8370903:

Every instance of prophecy or revelation does not have to be telling someone’s future, etc. QUOTE]

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but my firm understanding is that genuine prophecies are **never **

about the **future **- which only God knows. Rather, “prophecies” are messages from heaven to help us better understand the present times, and how and where we should consequently be directing our spiritual labors. Even the Mother of God, when she speaks about the future in her (genuine) apparitions always qualifies it with some condition or other: if this, then that, if not this, then such and such.

Yet, every second (or more) alleged prophecy which I hear from the mouths of Charismatic Christians is about some event that is predicted to definitely occur in coming hours, days, weeks or months. Often involving the most trivial of things too. In other words, prophecy = looking into a crystal ball, according to this variety.

What’s with that? Anyone care to comment/explain?

Thanks.

Prophecy is more forthtelling than foretelling. However, to say that prophecy never is predictive is misleading. Prediction is not the main function of prophecy. The most basic definition of prophecy is spontaneously (i.e. a prophetic utterance is never “rehearsed” or planned) speaking on behalf of God.

I’m not sure what charismatic groups you have been exposed to. In my personal experience, while I have heard predictive prophecy, the majority of prophecy has been for encouragement, comfort, and exhortation-which is how Paul defines prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14.

 

[ClayPots47]

I grew up in the assemblies of God, so the Protestant origin of “Catholic Charismatic-ism” seems pretty obvious to me. I looked up videos of Catholic Charismatic meetings and they are EXACTLY like what I grew up with (the tongues, the falling onto the floor after being prayed over, the raised hands, dancing with tamborines, the style of music…). arlingtonrenewal.org/history even acknowledges that this modern movement is Protestant in origin (although it ties its Protestant appearance to a prayer of Pope Leo XIII).

In all my years of involvement with CCR, I have never seen dancing with tambourines. I’m not saying it isn’t happening, just that I’ve have never observed it, not even at big events with upwards of 5000 people. It is not common to all of the CCR, but some elements of CCR, who try to borrow more from Pentecostals, have added stuff like this. Which is a problem, and something that bishops and priests need to address, if they aren’t already. The similarities observed are not because the CCR borrows from the Protestants, it’s because both borrow from the same source, scripture; and the bible belongs to the Catholic Church, so the Protestants got their information from the RCC. Of course there are going to be similarities! And I haven’t seen Resting in the Spirit (the term generally used by the CCR, to differentiate the experience among Catholic Charismatics from Protestant ones) carried out in the same manner either. There is none of the hysteria, jerking, barking, or other odd behavior. If it happens, a priest is having the catchers haul away the affected person and taking them to a private location, then getting his copy of the Roman Ritual, and turning to the section on prayers for exorcism of evil spirits.

Also, “speaking in tongues” - as modern charismatic Protestants and Catholics are doing - is to my knowledge absent of (at the least) the majority of the history of the Church and it doesn’t “gel” with it. It doesn’t have the spirit of the mass, the liturgy of the hours, the prayers of the saints, all of which seem a solemn celebration, a quiet joy. Any traditional devotion if placed side by side with the mass would not seem incongruous but this DOES.

That is simply your opinion. As to be missing (tongues), go back and read my post regarding the isolated village of Catholics who prayed in tongues and expressed other charisms for around 900 years. Also, there are many saints who’s prayer was anything but solemn, such as Francis of Assisi; not too mention there isn’t anything solemn about saints levitating, flying, bilocating, going into ecstasy, etc. Cursillo would then seem incongruous to you then; as Cursillo like the CCR, is a very lively spirituality. Cursillo began in the RCC in Spain in the 1940’s, and spread throughout the world. It has since spread to mainline Protestant Church’s. Many Cursillo attendees have also taken part in the CCR.

More broadly, the talk of a baptism of the Holy Spirit as something distinct from baptism and confirmation (which is definitely Protestant idea and a fairly new one at that), even if you are only saying that it is graces of confirmation being released (which I have read on CAF) has to my knowledge no historicity.

Baptism in the Spirit in the CCR is not the same as it is in Pentecostal Protestant circles. For the Catholic, the experience is a commitment to live the life we were intended to by Baptism and Confirmation, it is the realization of our calling; which ideally should have happened at Confirmation, but mostly does not. One is not limited to the CCR or Baptism in the Spirit; that is simply one method. There are many methods through many movements, and even through personal prayer and study. And that does have historicity. The stories of the saints are full of defining moments in which they committed themselves to living their lives as they were called to through Baptism and Confirmation.

Any movement claiming to be restoring something that was “forgotten” for a large chunk of Church history is rather suspicious.

The CCR doesn’t claim that, which is why it is called Catholic Charismatic Renewal, not Catholic Charismatic Restoration. It is a renewal of the charisms which belong to the RCC, and have belonged to the RCC from Pentecost. They weren’t forgotten, they just just weren’t needed for the most part, and became associated mostly with holy people. And what you consider “suspicious” has been supported by the Church, with more than 22 addresses from the popes; P6, JP2 and B16. Not too mention the numerous bishops who have welcomed and supported the CCR throughout the world.

I “spoke in tongues”… I don’t think it was the “real deal”; I do not think it was the speaking in tongues that was exhibited in the early church.

You say you don’t know, it may not have been real for you; it may have been the human spirit acting because you were in an environment where you were expected to have the gift. What you cannot say, is whether the gift is real or not for anyone else. Ultimately, it is for the Church to decide if the gift exhibited today is the same as the early church; and they haven’t said anything one way or another. What the Church has done, is allow the CCR to exist in the RCC, as they see it as movement that has been fruitful. And they oversee the activity and caution against potential abuses, charging the bishops and priest to address such incidents of abuse.

 

[Redactor007]

Hi. I am relatively new to the site. Was curious as to what people thought about the Charasmatic Renewal i.e. Speaking in Tongues and Prophecy etc.

This is quite a difficult question on a number of levels. Some people debate the existence of these gifts in the modern world, while others use them constantly. Add to this the problem that the Charismatic Renewal tends to attract the wounded and the emotional, and you have a recipe for big problems.

My personal opinion is that the Charismatic gifts are service gifts designed to help the layman evangelize and minister to a broken world, and to build up his trust and love of, and commitment to God. The problem with most Charismatic groups is that they focus solely on themselves, never taking their ministry out to the world where it is so needed.

Having been in the Charismatic renewal since 1986 I can say that I have seen miracles: spines straightened, cancer cured, etc. I have heard many accurate words of knowledge and prophecy. I have seen people delivered from demonic oppression. The list goes on and on. So, while I may not be a Scripture scholar and can’t really argue for or against the Renewal from Scripture, what I can say is: the blind see, the deaf hear and the lame leap for joy. I’ll let the theologians figure out the rest.

I do need to put forth a word of caution: there are a lot of people in the Charismatic renewal who have a lot of bad theology and are there for the emotional feelings they get. These are not the kind of people you’ll want to spend oodles of time with. You need to find a group that has solid theology and has emotionally stable people leading it. Unfortunately this is harder than it might seem. As I said, the Renewal attracts a lot of broken people and so finding a group that isn’t predominantly broken can be quite difficult. It’s also the reason why the Renewal has such a bad reputation in many circles.

What, in my opinion, it all boils down to is that the Renewal should exist to minister to God’s people, to strengthen your love and commitment to Christ, and to help spread the Gospel. If God brings you to a group where that happens then I say go for it, but make sure to go in with your eyes wide open and always ask questions.

 

[randrada]

Check out the recorded audio I’ve collected calling Catholic radio on this issue

miriam.stanford.edu/mytmp/Mass/

go down to where it says tongue and I have several audio that will explain what
the expert thinks about this.

Rey

I did my research some years ago, back before the predominance of the Internet. My primary source was an actual book (remember those?) - namely the Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements by Burgess & McGee - a 914 page hardcover reference that is an absolute steal at the $1.12 price currently offered as for a “used” volume on Amazon. It is an indispensable resource for anyone interested in the development of “Charismatic Christianity.”

This is a protestant (Zondervan) publication intended to support the practice (so protestants have slim recourse to contest the factual aspects of this tome). Thus, I’m sure it is influential to many protestants. But informed Catholics can find much fault with this publication.

 

[discoverer]

I don’t get why they are so defensive. I totally believe you about the lie part. I think they lie about it and do whatever it takes to protect that belief.

Well, I haven’t got the ability to argue about it on an intellectual level and I don’t think you can possibly have all the facts either. Speaking in tongues is a little bit difficult for me to totally understand, but sometimes when I am praying, there is a time, silently, when I use it. It brings me, personally, closer to God. Secondly, Charismatic Renewal is the ONLY part of the Catholic Church, which has opened me up and brought the Word of God alive for me. Reading the bible now is a delight and a lifeline. I now pray every day, read both the bible and other religeous works which I never did before BECAUSE I DIDN’T HAVE THE TIME! The Renewal has allowed me to feel free enough to totally abandon myself to God, helping me to recognise what my humanity is and where God is. It has opened my eyes to His love, power, gentleness and protection. It has allowed me to see problems coming.Before I came in contact with the renewal I was convinced they were a load of nutters because I didn’t understand anything about them. How they got here is of little consequence to me now. The fact that this beautiful part of our faith is here now is for many thousands of us a real gift. I did not know anyone in the renewal and just stumbled across them when things in my life were making no sense and it was a Catholic Priest who pointed me in their direction then. How is it that it was only after becoming aware of Catholic Renewal, I was shown how powerful God is when He healed me of a tremendous hurt which I had been carrying around for 35 years? Why didn’t I recieve this from the more ‘understood’ areas and workings of the Catholic Church? I had been sitting on the edge of this Catholic faith of ours for years, without being able to reach its core. Yes, people who are engaged in the Charismatic Renewal DO work on feelings and with it comes an incredible thirst to find more of the Truth which the wonders of our Catholic Church gives us the opportunity to do. We get nowhere with seeking intellectual answers without taking note of what God is saying in our hearts! Before knocking Charismatic Renewal, try really experiencing what it is. Don’t just stop at the praise, worship and speaking in tongues. A true Charismatic needs to be a contemplative too. Charismatic Renewal works from a base of love, not anger or fingerpointing. Try reading James Chapter 3 before putting your fingers on the keyboard. It may help. I hope and pray you find the truth, something we are all looking for here on this site. It is not a good idea to throw out the baby with the bathwater! Take another look at Charismatic Renewal. Even better, spend some time experiencing some of the weekends they hold. It is not called the Renewal for nothing!

God Bless.

 

[Aussiegal]

Thank-you Discoverer for your honest thoughts on the Renewal.Some thoughts I would like to share…

Six years ago when I was in total despair over my cancer diagnoses I attended my first ever Charismatic healing service. I was totally open as I was having a hard time God was hearing my desperate cry.

I remember when the congregation went into tongues and it sounding like angels and feeling an electric feeling across my lips, upon leaving I felt a bit dissappointed I didn’t experience more and thought they were a way over the top in there “praising”. But still enjoyed it, even being jealous I didn’t feel their passion for God. Later that night while lying in bed I wished I could speak in tongues, and as that thought came over me the supernatural gift was released in me and I was totally overcome with an outpouring of Gods Spirit, total indescribable love I have never felt before and also the extreme desire to praise as the leaders had praised earlier on in the night.I was led to believe the interpretation of their tongue was praising God,

I really feel this was my sign that I needed that God had heard my cry, after praying for days and days and that night I really felt God for probably the first time in my life. It gave me a real desire for the Bible and prayer and increased my faith in God. Yes the Charismatic movement does draw the broken and emotionally wounded, “They don’t always come in pretty packages” we were told by our leader, but it is our job to look beyond the packaging and welcome everyone! I am alive today through Gods merciful grace and everything I do is for his Glory…I thank the charismatic movement for for leading me on this journey!

 

[rigadoon]

We can praise the Lord for the charismatic renewal because much good has come through it. Controversy has also come but over time that falls away. One example is the time-tested ministry of Francis and Judith MacNutt and their long-standing Christian Healing Ministries (see christianhealingmin.org/). They have been teaching people from around the world about the healing power of God. BTW, Francis MacNutt was laicized and is in good standing with the Church (see christianhealingmin.org/about/).

The critics and a minority of charismatics focus on “tongues.” However, the movement in general has focused on using all the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God.

 

[randrada]

Take another look at Charismatic Renewal. Even better, spend some time experiencing some of the weekends they hold. It is not called the Renewal for nothing!

God Bless.

There are good things with the Charismatic group but most people who do speaking in tongue in the group dont know what the Church teaches on it. If you look at the Catechism here it says about speaking in tongue

excerpt :
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

end of excerpt.

In my understanding at least that speaking in tongue do happen but not as frequent as what you see within the Charismatic renewal. My wife and I went to one of their conferences and they even have a workshop on how to “speak in tongue” being thought, get this this, by a nun not wearing her habit, but no line to the confessional which I find interesting. But from that time on we decided to stay away from the Charismatic group. Should you try the group ? Yes and get the good things.

Rey

 

[LegoGE1947]

No problem.

No, it was only 1 lady that said “The Lord is telling me to tell you that he wants us all to kneel”, and said it with certain authority. I don’t recognize that authority.

My hypothetical is what if somebody else said the lord told them to stand up? How do we resolve that conflict?

I’m curious what you would think about this (I see you’re Pentecostal), in the same meeting before that event, there was a lady talking about some apparitions of the Virgin Mary in Georgia. She brought back pictures of cloud formations, that looked to me like regular cloud formations. She claimed one showed the gate to heaven, the other showed the sword of Michael the Archangel.

The guy next to me whispered to me “I don’t see anything”, I replied “Don’t worry me neither. There’s nothing to see”.

The presenter of course said you needed “faith” to see and believe what she was saying.

There were people who said they saw the Virgin Mary in ice formations on overpasses of the expressways of Chicago a few winters ago. They wanted the Vatican (or the Archdiocese of Chicago at least) to investigate these “appearances.” Both organizations declined.

 

[ClayPots47]

@MikeBat
That was an amazing testimony. Thank you for sharing that.

@Witzy
Well stated!

I do need to put forth a word of caution: there are a lot of people in the Charismatic renewal who have a lot of bad theology and are there for the emotional feelings they get. These are not the kind of people you’ll want to spend oodles of time with. You need to find a group that has solid theology and has emotionally stable people leading it. Unfortunately this is harder than it might seem. As I said, the Renewal attracts a lot of broken people and so finding a group that isn’t predominantly broken can be quite difficult. It’s also the reason why the Renewal has such a bad reputation in many circles.

Sage advice. I might add that the materials being used for the Life in the Spirit Seminars and any other catechesis should be sound materials and have an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat (Such as the Key of David publications Msgr Vincent Walsh authored and compiled for the Archdiocese of Philadelphia). A good group should also have an involved pastor as well.

In my understanding at least that speaking in tongue do happen but not as frequent as what you see within the Charismatic renewal. My wife and I went to one of their conferences and they even have a workshop on how to “speak in tongue” being thought, get this this, by a nun not wearing her habit, but no line to the confessional which I find interesting. But from that time on we decided to stay away from the Charismatic group. Should you try the group ? Yes and get the good things.

Rey

Msgr Walsh would hold a workshop at the Philadelphia rally at Villanova University many years ago. It wasn’t “How to Speak in Tongues”, but rather a simple exercise on opening up to receiving tongues for the timid having trouble yielding. Not only were the confessional lines long, the adoration room was often packed with adorers as well. This goes back to what Redactor wrote above about discerning the groups theology and stability.

 

[InDefense]

Hi. I am relatively new to the site. Was curious as to what people thought about the Charasmatic Renewal i.e. Speaking in Tongues and Prophecy etc.

It signifies that God is working in these people. The Holy Spirit with the evidence of “Speaking in tongues” happened at the start of the first church on Pentecost, and has been available ever since.

In Acts 8, when Phillip preached to the Samaritans, the Samaritans had ‘believed’, got ‘baptised in water’, but had not received the Holy Spirit until John and Peter came down. How did they know that the Samaritans had not received the Holy Spirit ?

 

[Opie90]

Thank you everyone who replied to me, you have given me a lot to think about.

 

[SanAgustin]

And I haven’t seen Resting in the Spirit (the term generally used by the CCR, to differentiate the experience among Catholic Charismatics from Protestant ones) carried out in the same manner either.

Seen it, this is when people fall and rest on the floor, sometimes with their eyes moving in a REM pattern. Looks similar to some of the African rituals that result in trances.

There is none of the hysteria, jerking, barking, or other odd behavior. If it happens, a priest is having the catchers haul away the affected person and taking them to a private location, then getting his copy of the Roman Ritual, and turning to the section on prayers for exorcism of evil spirits.

I’ve seen this happen at big CCR retreats, maybe less in intensity to some of their Pentecostal counterparts though.

Cursillo would then seem incongruous to you then; as Cursillo like the CCR, is a very lively spirituality. Cursillo began in the RCC in Spain in the 1940’s, and spread throughout the world. It has since spread to mainline Protestant Church’s. Many Cursillo attendees have also taken part in the CCR.

Cursillo is nothing like CCR, that’s like saying a Mass in Spanish is like CCR because of the music and instruments. The signing and music is cultural in nature, doesn’t mean people are prone to fall, speak in “tongues” and have “prophets” tell them direct messages from God that seem trivial.

Baptism in the Spirit in the CCR is not the same as it is in Pentecostal Protestant circles. For the Catholic, the experience is a commitment to live the life we were intended to by Baptism and Confirmation, it is the realization of our calling; which ideally should have happened at Confirmation, but mostly does not. One is not limited to the CCR or Baptism in the Spirit; that is simply one method.

OK, I’m somewhat bothered by the preceding statements. I know it’s not your intent, but you seem to be questioning the value of the Sacrament of Confirmation! It almost seems like you’re saying the CCR has a method that results in the effusion on the Holy Spirit that works better than an actual sacrament!

 

[randrada]

@MikeBat

Msgr Walsh would hold a workshop at the Philadelphia rally at Villanova University many years ago. It wasn’t “How to Speak in Tongues”, but rather a simple exercise on opening up to receiving tongues for the timid having trouble yielding. Not only were the confessional lines long, the adoration room was often packed with adorers as well. This goes back to what Redactor wrote above about discerning the groups theology and stability.

MikeBat,

You forgot to quote what the Catechism says about "speaking in tongue",

“sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues”

How often do you see miracles and how often do you see speaking in tongue with the Charismatics ? Should I subscribe to what Msgr. Walsh teach or to what the Catechism say that tongue is extra ordinary ?

Rey

 

[discoverer1]

This is quite a difficult question on a number of levels. Some people debate the existence of these gifts in the modern world, while others use them constantly. Add to this the problem that the Charismatic Renewal tends to attract the wounded and the emotional, and you have a recipe for big problems.

My personal opinion is that the Charismatic gifts are service gifts designed to help the layman evangelize and minister to a broken world, and to build up his trust and love of, and commitment to God. The problem with most Charismatic groups is that they focus solely on themselves, never taking their ministry out to the world where it is so needed.

Having been in the Charismatic renewal since 1986 I can say that I have seen miracles: spines straightened, cancer cured, etc. I have heard many accurate words of knowledge and prophecy. I have seen people delivered from demonic oppression. The list goes on and on. So, while I may not be a Scripture scholar and can’t really argue for or against the Renewal from Scripture, what I can say is: the blind see, the deaf hear and the lame leap for joy. I’ll let the theologians figure out the rest.

I do need to put forth a word of caution: there are a lot of people in the Charismatic renewal who have a lot of bad theology and are there for the emotional feelings they get. These are not the kind of people you’ll want to spend oodles of time with. You need to find a group that has solid theology and has emotionally stable people leading it. Unfortunately this is harder than it might seem. As I said, the Renewal attracts a lot of broken people and so finding a group that isn’t predominantly broken can be quite difficult. It’s also the reason why the Renewal has such a bad reputation in many circles.

What, in my opinion, it all boils down to is that the Renewal should exist to minister to God’s people, to strengthen your love and commitment to Christ, and to help spread the Gospel. If God brings you to a group where that happens then I say go for it, but make sure to go in with your eyes wide open and always ask questions.

Thanks for your words. I agree wholeheartedly with what you say. Yes, the Renewal does attract those who are broken. But they are more often people who are searching for God who cannot find the answers within the more common parts of the Christian faith. The whole Church should be evangelising. If people come to a prayer group it seems initially to be because they need help, they want to express their joy, they want to find answers or they need an ear to listen to them. We are all broken to some degree. I’d be surprised to find anyone who isn’t! It is in recognising our brokenness that the healing starts. It is after this that we can turn our attention to our fellow man more readily and start acting to bring the good news to others and forget ourselves. But as you say, there is nothing to be gained by a prayer group which is solely focussing on its members. I think these generally fold after a time.
For me the

 

[guanophore]

Seen it, this is when people fall and rest on the floor, sometimes with their eyes moving in a REM pattern. Looks similar to some of the African rituals that result in trances.

Is there some reason that you believe a person being overcome by the power of God is wrong? Are you unfamiliar with the scriptural references to people who respond the the presence of God by falling down?

 I've seen this happen at big CCR retreats, maybe less in intensity to some of their Pentecostal counterparts though.

It is no secret that the devil does manifest himself at times.

Cursillo is nothing like CCR, that’s like saying a Mass in Spanish is like CCR because of the music and instruments. The signing and music is cultural in nature, doesn’t mean people are prone to fall, speak in “tongues” and have “prophets” tell them direct messages from God that seem trivial.

I assure you, if you ever receive a direct message from God, it will not be “trivial”. Can you give an example of such a “trivial” message?

OK, I’m somewhat bothered by the preceding statements. I know it’s not your intent, but you seem to be questioning the value of the Sacrament of Confirmation! It almost seems like you’re saying the CCR has a method that results in the effusion on the Holy Spirit that works better than an actual sacrament!

I can understand why it might seem that way, but it is better described as opening up the graces that one has received in Confirmation. It is similar to going to a marriage renewal, and opening up the graces given in the sacrament of marriage. It is not getting “remarried” (though it may seem that way), a couple can have a much fuller and empowered marriage if they live according to the grace they received would have a healthier relationship, and walk in the power God intended.