They are not at conflict with one another. Tongues is the most common gift. Of course it is outside our ordinary experience, because it is a gift from the Holy Spirit. You can see “extraordinary” ministers of Holy Communion all over in Novus Ordo parishes. They are very common.
From God’s perspective, there is no “future”. He sees past, present, and future together. Samuel gave a prophesy to Saul about Saul’s future (1 Sam 28:15)
You are right on about prophesy largely referencing the Truth of God spoken into the present.
Wow. I recommend that you stop listneing to them. Can’t you listen to something better? Don’t you get EWTN?
The abuse of a gift does not mean there is no authentic gift, anymore than abuse of the liturgy means there is no valid liturgy.
What you are describing is not taught as part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
The dictionary defines extraordinary as
Clearly.
Actually, many of the original leaders in the CCR movement came from Cursillo.
No, we are questioning the understanding, participation, and full involvement of the people receiving the sacrament. For the majority of Catholics, confirmation hardly changes anything (though the sacrament was surely effective, and they received all the grace from it) (many Catholics stop attending Church after confirmation). If you read the Acts of the Apostles, it’s supposed to change everything. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is an experience that the CCR has tried to nurture that will open you up to the grace you have already been given.
That may be the case, but the two movements are very different. I’ve never heard a Cursillista equate their movement with CCR.
I think the way people word it, they seem to diminish the value of the Sacrament in their descriptions and that’s dangerous. And I also think many do so because maybe they didn’t seem to get anything out of their Confirmation, that’s not the case with everybody.
Yes, at a CCR prayer group the lady towards the end of the meeting that had the gift of “prophesy” telling everybody that God was telling her that we all had to kneel.
It is a false assumption that an emotional experience always accompanies the conferral of grace or it’s “release”. As far as sacramental grace is concerned, often, the only sensible indication of it’s conferral, is the sacramental sign itself. In the Catechism of the Council of Trent defines sacrament as:
It is a sign which effects what it signifies. Since, the visible signs of all the sacraments are fixed by our Church and completely objective, ones personal - and subjective - feelings have no relation to weather or not the conferral of grace has taken place.
That’s exactly how it’s coming out, and I’m sure the response will be “that’s not what we mean”.It is almost as if you are saying that this “baptism of the Holy Spirit” is an eighth sacrament, one that is needed to complete or “release” the others. In a way, it is as if you are saying that we non-Charismatics have a dead faith, and that the Charismatics have a living faith and are somehow “full Catholics”.
“But mostly does not”, sounds like they’re saying Confirmation is ineffectual, more than suggesting an 8th sacrament it sound to me like this describes something that should replace the sacrament we have.
On the contrary, the quote says “it is the realization of our calling”. This is something that has to take place in the individual, an experience that results from his own free initiative, his surrender to the grace of the sacrament. The sacrament is still effective, in that all the grace that is bestowed by the sacrament is still received. For instance: I can go up and receive communion, then come back to my pew and let my mind totally wander until the end of Mass, not even acknowledging the fact that I have just received God Himself. Is the sacrament still effective? Sure. I still received Our Lord in the Eucharist. I still received sanctifying grace. But am I even acknowledging the sacrament? Am I allowing it to change me? Am I co-operating with the grace of the sacrament? No. This is the problem with the majority of Catholics today, in regards to the sacrament of confirmation. Many Catholics even stop attending church after confirmation! Have they received the Holy Spirit? Yeah. Was the sacrament effective? Yes. But are they living out the grace of their confirmation? No. See Acts 2. Does confirmation so radically change their lives as it did to the Apostles? No. The Holy Spirit requires our cooperation. That’s why we have free will. He will never override that against our will.
I did my Confirmation in free will and it did radically change my life. Again, you are directly downplaying the Sacrament, this is like saying nobody appreciates absolution after a confession and you need another movement to make you “feel it”.
You do know he’s talking about Confirmation right?
You are the one saying Confirmation is NOT life changing and are implying it’s not efficient in causing an effusion of the Holy Spirit.
Then, I would say you’ve probably been baptized in the Holy Spirit. As I said, it’s not necessarily about “feeling” it.
I am saying Confirmation should be life changing, and it is efficient. But only with our full cooperation with it!. If we’re not fully cooperating with it, if we have not encountered the Trinity, not encountered the presence and power of God the Holy Spirit (in what ever manner He decides), if Pentecost is just something that happened to the Apostles - it’s not life changing. We’re putting our light under a bushel basket, as in today’s Gospel reading. We’re “stifling the Spirit”. We have all the grace of the sacrament - but we’re not doing anything with it. Baptism in the Holy Spirit simply marks our correct response to the reality of the grace of the sacrament, in which we encounter the living God and the presence and power of the Holy Spirit.
Yep. If you’ve never experienced the full reality of Pentecost, this ain’t your show.
This is very subjective and absurd; are you implying that most confirmations are done under duress or, that they are not in cooperation with the Holy Spirit? How would you judge if someone’s life has changed sufficiently enough or not? Who’s yardstick are you using?
So basically, it is a completely subjective experience, that has been facilitated by the sensible and objective signs of the true sacraments.
I do not feel - what you call - the“baptism of the Holy Spirit” is essential or necessary to live out our vocations as Christians. It has obvious, that many people, sometimes even great Saints, are never given notable consolations in their Faith, much less extraordinary manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
And I would contest that the CCR is fundamentally un-Catholic and irreconcilable with 20 centuries of Catholic teaching.
You seem to be implying intentionally or inintentionally, that those not involved in the “Catholic Charismatic Renewal” do not have “full access” to the grace of their baptism, implying by extension (since gaining such would be a good thing) that all Catholics should be part of it. Whether or not the Catholic Charismatic renewal is a legitimate movement this seems to be crossing a line.Clearly.
the Catholic Church, and the Holy Spirit are not subject to the modern dictionary.
I see miracles every day, but then, I probably understand miracles differently than you also.
If you do not wish to avail yourself of the gifts God has given to you in your baptism, that is your perogative.
I don’t see how it is absurd to suggest the Holy Spirit requires our cooperation. I thought that was a given. Perhaps not.
Yes, this experience is of course subjective. I hope you’re not implying that this is a bad thing.
Then how should we live out our vocations as Christians? Without Pentecost? Without the presence and power of God the Holy Spirit? Without being aware of the graces we’ve been given, and not using them? As G.K. Chesterton says: “Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you a car.”
The Holy Fathers and the bishops would disagree with you. As would 20 centuries of Catholic teaching.
I agree. I think some better language would reduce suspicion and division. There is no need for us to adopt Protestant terminology that is so misleading to Catholics.
True.
I have been present when this has happened also, and one time, such an impetus came to me also. What is it about kneeling in prayer that you find “trivial”?
Yes. But is is an equally false assumption that it CANNOT be accompanied by an emotional experience. God created human beings with emotions, and He wants all of them to be harnessed to do His work. Many people need healing in their emotions so that they can come into the fullness of God’s plan for their life.
No arguement there.
As a person who suffered from “dead faith” for many years, I can assure you that the charismatic experience was able to bring me back to life, back to the sacraments, and eventually, back to the fullness of Truth in the Church. I realize that not everyone needs this, because they never drifted off, or their faith has always been alive. For those of us that have not had that in our lives, it has been a great outpouring of saving grace. God meets us where we are. Some in the Church are like the older brother, not the prodigal son. Of the elder brother it was said “you have always been with me, and everything I have is yours”.
This is the position of our separated brethren, who shun the sacramental life, and have embraced heresies about the Christian faith. It is important that this heretical framework not be allowed in the Church.
I think it is more accurately stated that, for the majority of American Catholics, the reception of the graces bestowed at Confirmation are not efficient in causeing and effusion of the HS. This is because the individuals who have received the sacrament are not living according to the grace it bestows. Unfortunately, I think your experience of an empowered life is the minority.