Thoughts on Charasmatic Renewal

[guanophore]

 This is very subjective and absurd; are you implying that most confirmations are done under duress or, that they are not in cooperation with the Holy Spirit

Certainly far too many of them are. I have personally interviewed dozens of teens who cannot articulate one reason they want to be in confirmation preparation classes (other than to “get it over with”. This is a gross disrespect for the Sacrament. Many of them outright say that they are there because their parents made them come. When I tell them it is their choice, and they don’t have to attend (I often encourage them to wait until college if they are not ready to make a commitment to their faith) the parents will sometimes storm into the class or the registration tables and insist that they will attend. many parents also seem to feel that their task of raising children in the Church is completed once they get the kid confirmed.

  How would you judge if someone’s life has changed sufficiently enough or not? Who’s yardstick are you using?

I don’t really think that is for us to judge, do you? What we can do is call people to the type of commitment and faith practice that you have experienced, and encourage them to receive and implement the graces of the Sacrament as you have. If they are not interested, then that is on them.

 So basically, it is a completely subjective  experience, that has been facilitated by the sensible and objective signs of the true sacraments.

Is it possible to have a valid, authentic walk with God that does not have any subjective experience connected to it? This does not seem consistent with the NT record.

Rom 8:12-17

12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh - 13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

I do not feel - what you call - the“baptism of the Holy Spirit” is essential or necessary to live out our vocations as Christians. It has obvious, that many people, sometimes even great Saints, are never given notable consolations in their Faith, much less extraordinary manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

We are sealed in the HS in baptism (most of us as infants) and again in Confirmation. Not everyone has an emotional reaction, and not everyone experiences charismatic gifts. These are not necessary for the Sacrament to be effective, as you have testified of your own life.

 And I would contest that the CCR is fundamentally un-Catholic and irreconcilable with 20 centuries of Catholic teaching.

Then you would be contesting against the Church.

 

[guanophore]

You seem to be implying intentionally or inintentionally, that those not involved in the “Catholic Charismatic Renewal” do not have “full access” to the grace of their baptism, implying by extension (since gaining such would be a good thing) that all Catholics should be part of it. Whether or not the Catholic Charismatic renewal is a legitimate movement this seems to be crossing a line.

I am sorry, but I don’t see how you get any of this from what I wrote.

This does not represent my point of view, nor that of the Church. Could it be that you are projecting your own attitude into this?

I agree, such a position amounts to heresy.

 

[SanAgustin]

I have been present when this has happened also, and one time, such an impetus came to me also. What is it about kneeling in prayer that you find “trivial”?

I find it trivial and dangerous to have somebody in a prayer group designated with prophetic powers that everybody just has to accept for no good reason or serious discernment. I think getting direct messages from God just that he wants you to kneel at certain moments in the meeting, is strange and likely not a message from God (or anybody).

If somebody suggests kneeling, or is directing a prayer that’s something else, but not as a demonstration of a prophetic gift.

 

[guanophore]

Thanking everyone for their thoughts on this, I am no expert and truely appreciate Vardaquinn’s comments on this. I do think there is a lot of fear and misunderstanding for the Charismatic movement. I know personally in my heart that it has helped me enormously in my faith journey, and it helped me develop a personel relationhip with God that was lacking before, all I wanted was to be free of cancer and to be alive for my kids!

Everyone has a different opinion and thats O.K because I think its good to question.I believe that all of these things go together in the church and the charismatic movement is just an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It’s not for everyone, but it’s fully endorsed by the Vatican, I have attended CCR meetings in my state and have nothing but admiration and respect for what they are trying to achieve there is absolutely nothing that isn’t Catholic about it. The evil one enjoys division, and I think we have to be careful we don’t play into his hands!

Thank you for your witness, Aussiegal. This form of spirituality does not commend itself to everyone, just like a cloistered contempletive lifestyle does not commend itself to everyone. God has as many ways to make us holy as there are belly buttons.

 

[Aussiegal]

Yes, Guanophore, God has many,many ways to bring us closer to him and all I can say is “Thank Goodness for that”! And may those who seek him, always find the answers they are looking for!

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

 Yes, there are divine mysteries but that reality should not be used to defend against honest criticism of the aspects of the church that are not doctrinal, not devine - we should be critical of ourselves and of the men and women who make up what is "The Church", as only if we do so - only if we say, "Lord, we've built this Church in your honor to celebrate and live as you've taught us but we are deeply flawed" can we begin to go about the real work of taking honest, ongoing inventory of ourselves as individuals and as an institution to make sure things like the pedophile rings and protection thereof do not happen again.  We should not tolerate our religion to be used as a bandage to protect bad decisions, bad operations but should rather have more respect.

Can you show any Church Teaching, or writings of the saints and doctors of the Church that encourages the faithful to “be critical” of those in authority over us?

As I see it, just as a parent should not overlook flaws in their children but should rather lovingly work with the child to change them, we as parishioners should do the same for this creation of ours - this Church we have inherited, and will pass down to future generations.

Herein seems to lie the main trouble. You see, the Catholic Church is no “creation of ours”. The Church belongs to Jesus. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He told Peter “I will build my church”. He built it upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. He is the one who guides and disciplines His flock, not the sheep.

 While I respect those who disagree, I strongly believe celibacy should be a choice of the priest and not a condition of priesthood.  I disagree that one has to be "angry or characterized as being "on a rant" when attempting to soberly lay out the argument that represents the viewpoint of so many devout Catholics worldwide.

I think the arguement can be made dispassionatley as well. You seem to have quite a bit of emotion about it.

 

[StAnastasia]

Hi. I am relatively new to the site. Was curious as to what people thought about the Charasmatic Renewal i.e. Speaking in Tongues and Prophecy etc.

Is “charasmatic” the same as “charismatic”?

 

[Aussiegal]

Is “charasmatic” the same as “charismatic”?

Interesting,I didn’t pay much attention to the spelling when I posted but we spell it as
“charismatic” in Australia!!

 

[Opie90]

I am sorry, but I don’t see how you get any of this from what I wrote.

This does not represent my point of view, nor that of the Church. Could it be that you are projecting your own attitude into this?

I agree, such a position amounts to heresy.

I will take another look at your post. That was how it came across to me, but I could well be wrong. I am glad you did not mean it that way.

 

[guanophore]

I find it trivial and dangerous to have somebody in a prayer group designated with prophetic powers that everybody just has to accept for no good reason or serious discernment.

Certainly that would be quite dangerous.

What did you discern about kneeling that you thought was evil?

I think getting direct messages from God just that he wants you to kneel at certain moments in the meeting, is strange and likely not a message from God (or anybody).

Really? Do you think that God never told anyone to take off their shoes, because they were on holy ground?

If somebody suggests kneeling, or is directing a prayer that’s something else, but not as a demonstration of a prophetic gift.

How is that different? It seems to me that this is only different in delivery. I can say, “Can we all kneel in prayer?” or I can say “I feel that the Lord would have us kneel”, or I can say “I believe the HS is calling us to kneel”.

 

[SanAgustin]

How is that different? It seems to me that this is only different in delivery. I can say, “Can we all kneel in prayer?” or I can say “I feel that the Lord would have us kneel”, or I can say “I believe the HS is calling us to kneel”.

She said “God is telling me we must/should kneel”, and people identified this person with the gift of “prophesy”, I see this all the time in non-Catholic churches, and I have a problem with the group putting pressure on everybody to believe this person has any prophetic gift in the first place.

 

[guanophore]

She said “God is telling me we must/should kneel”, and people identified this person with the gift of “prophesy”, I see this all the time in non-Catholic churches, and I have a problem with the group putting pressure on everybody to believe this person has any prophetic gift in the first place.

All gifts must be properly discerned, of course. The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet, and therefore, prone to human error.

How does the group "put pressure on everybydy? If the person has been accurate many times, then of course the group is going to be more likely to accept what they have to say as prophetic, but that does not necessarily make it so.

One thing to watch for is, does the person guide or instruct anything that is contrary to Church teaching? In this case, there is no injuction against kneeling during prayer, so such an expression would not indicate the person was a false prophet.

Yes the gift of prophesy does operate in the ecclesial communities of our separted brethren. They are much more at risk, though, of getting off track, since they are separted from the Apostolic succession. It is the appointed shepherds of the Church who are responsible for discerning and developing the gifts in the faithful. Since they don’t have such authority, abuses of the gifts run rampant.

 

[SanAgustin]

How does the group "put pressure on everybydy? If the person has been accurate many times, then of course the group is going to be more likely to accept what they have to say as prophetic, but that does not necessarily make it so.

I don’t know what her “track record” in accuracy is. You have a new person visiting the group and the peer pressure is to accept at face value that this person has a “prophetic gift”. I’m pretty sure if I questioned it openly that wouldn’t be well received.

One thing to watch for is, does the person guide or instruct anything that is contrary to Church teaching? In this case, there is no injuction against kneeling during prayer, so such an expression would not indicate the person was a false prophet.

All I know is what I saw, if this person is constantly receiving messages from God telling her when we need to kneel, I’m not sure anybody can discern if she’s making it up, crazy, or really in communication with God. 2 out of 3 of those options are extremely more likely than the 3rd btw.

Yes the gift of prophesy does operate in the ecclesial communities of our separted brethren. They are much more at risk, though, of getting off track, since they are separted from the Apostolic succession. It is the appointed shepherds of the Church who are responsible for discerning and developing the gifts in the faithful. Since they don’t have such authority, abuses of the gifts run rampant.

I don’t see any priests in these meetings certifying that these people are really prophets or not.

 

[bugarinl]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, I am currently assisting a Charasmatic group and I truly enjoyed praising God and actually learning more about my Catholic faith. I guess I have much more to learn. May God Bless You all …

 

[vardaquinn]

I don’t know what her “track record” in accuracy is. You have a new person visiting the group and the peer pressure is to accept at face value that this person has a “prophetic gift”. I’m pretty sure if I questioned it openly that wouldn’t be well received.

All I know is what I saw, if this person is constantly receiving messages from God telling her when we need to kneel, I’m not sure anybody can discern if she’s making it up, crazy, or really in communication with God. 2 out of 3 of those options are extremely more likely than the 3rd btw.

I don’t see any priests in these meetings certifying that these people are really prophets or not.

Well, I don’t know the circumstances too well, it could be she was just getting carried away expecting God to have her prophesy, and mistaking her own jumbled thoughts for God’s. That’s seems likely to me. Or maybe He did have a message, and she totally misunderstood. Or maybe she made it up. Or maybe she’s crazy…

Yeah, you need proper discernment especially if it’s something like that, and I think the priests should be the primary people in charge of that. Someone used an analogy I like: the prophets are the engine of the car, and the priests are the brakes.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know what her “track record” in accuracy is. You have a new person visiting the group and the peer pressure is to accept at face value that this person has a “prophetic gift”. I’m pretty sure if I questioned it openly that wouldn’t be well received.

I don’t know either, but is that not the purview of herself and her prayer group? Why would a visitor feel responsible for openly questioning? If a visitor is uncomfortable, can’t such a person refrain from attending? Certain types of prayer devotions do not commend themselves to everyone. Those who do not wish to participate or “feel pressured” are under no obligation.

All I know is what I saw, if this person is constantly receiving messages from God telling her when we need to kneel, I’m not sure anybody can discern if she’s making it up, crazy, or really in communication with God. 2 out of 3 of those options are extremely more likely than the 3rd btw.

If you feel this way, then it seems expedient for you to find some other prayerful devotion for yourself.

It is curious that you seem to feel a need to judge the person.

 I don't see any priests in these meetings certifying that these people are really prophets or not.

Perhaps one was not in attendance the day you were there? If you have a concern, certainly the parish priest would be the person to address with it. It is the duty and responsibility for the ordained to help the faithful discern their gifts, and use them in an appropriate and orderly manner. (see part 8)

 

[SanAgustin]

I don’t know either, but is that not the purview of herself and her prayer group? Why would a visitor feel responsible for openly questioning? If a visitor is uncomfortable, can’t such a person refrain from attending? Certain types of prayer devotions do not commend themselves to everyone. Those who do not wish to participate or “feel pressured” are under no obligation.

Geez, I went to give the group a try, how can I be a “visitor” if I refrain from attending? C’mon!

The pressure is to accept this, as I said, more than one person in the group thought there was a lot of strange stuff going on and one guy next to me commented on it. The other lady presenting apparitions was saying, “If you don’t believe these, is because you don’t have enough faith. Just pray for more faith”. Not an environment conductive of thinking about things.

If you feel this way, then it seems expedient for you to find some other prayerful devotion for yourself.

It is curious that you seem to feel a need to judge the person.

So you don’t doubt anybody claiming to get a direct message from God??? If I tell you right now that God is telling me he did not talk to this lady, are you judging me if you don’t believe me?

Perhaps one was not in attendance the day you were there? If you have a concern, certainly the parish priest would be the person to address with it. It is the duty and responsibility for the ordained to help the faithful discern their gifts, and use them in an appropriate and orderly manner. (see part 8)

Most of the charismatic prayer groups here don’t have a priest in attendance during regular meetings.

 

[guanophore]

Geez, I went to give the group a try, how can I be a "visitor" if I refrain from attending? C'mon!

Great! You visited, you gave it a try, you didn’t like it. You are not compelled to kneel while you pray, you are not compelled or “pressured” either to attend, or to participate. It is not your cup of tea. No problem.

  The pressure is to accept this, as I said, more than one person in the group thought there was a lot of strange stuff going on and one guy next to me commented on it. The other lady presenting apparitions was saying, "If you don't believe these, is because you don't have enough faith. Just pray for more faith". Not an environment conductive of thinking about things.

Good time to terminate your visit, then.

So you don't doubt anybody claiming to get a direct message from God???

If I am visitng, I make a discernment for myself. I do not need to make judgments on the state of the souls I observe. They are not my responsibility. I am my responsibility.

If I tell you right now that God is telling me he did not talk to this lady, are you judging me if you don’t believe me?

Unlike yourself, I have no need to tell you such a thing. If you believe God spoke to you, more power to you. I am not required to accept your private revelation, but neither am I responsible for judging it’s authenticity. If your revelation directs me to do something that does not seem right to me, I can remove myself.

Most of the charismatic prayer groups here don’t have a priest in attendance during regular meetings.

Then perhaps it would be better for you to avoid them, given your skepticism.

 

[StAnastasia]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, I am currently assisting a Charasmatic group .

“Charismatic”, not “charasthmatic”

 

[Aussiegal]

Geez, I went to give the group a try, how can I be a “visitor” if I refrain from attending? C’mon!

The pressure is to accept this, as I said, more than one person in the group thought there was a lot of strange stuff going on and one guy next to me commented on it. The other lady presenting apparitions was saying, “If you don’t believe these, is because you don’t have enough faith. Just pray for more faith”. Not an environment conductive of thinking about things.

So you don’t doubt anybody claiming to get a direct message from God??? If I tell you right now that God is telling me he did not talk to this lady, are you judging me if you don’t believe me?

Most of the charismatic prayer groups here don’t have a priest in attendance during regular meetings.

I think first its important to go with an open heart and mind. You are not expected to accept the prophetic word it is up to the individual.Make sure the group you are going to is a Catholic group and is under the guidance of the CCR or a priest. I find Priests sometimes do attend these groups, but tend to be too busy.
I also agree with Guanophore if you feel uncomfortable then maybe this is not your style of worship,either that or find another group. I have found the more I go to these groups the more I can discern and if something happens that I don’t agree with then I don’t have a problem discussing it with the leaders. All Charismatic groups should have a discernment team and be under the guidance of a spiritual Director.
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