Thoughts on charismatic Mass

  • Thread starter Thread starter terillmorris
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
terillmorris said:
Do any of you Traditionalists have a problem with the charismatic Mass? As long as it is approved and there are no liturgical abuses? Not asking whether you’s go just asking if you think these Masses are wrong.
Click to expand...
Yes, I do have a problem with it. I believe that these heretics should stop. Sorry. :o
 
fyi our Holy Father B16 said to a community (not charismatic, but many practices Trads question) that they can celebrate their “style” of Mass on their own given that they follow the GIRM, but that they celebrate with the regular Parish community at least once a month.

this again shows that even the Holy Father doesn’t subscribe to the “if it’s not specifically in the rubrics, it can’t be done” mentality. let’s not try to be holier than the Church and define for ourselves what an abuse is. we are blessed to be in a universal church, with many devotions and rites available for everyone.
 
I attended a mass where people who prayed in tongue during the Consecration. The priest had told the parishiones ahead of time not to do anything during this important moment to distract others and himself.

I thought we should be quiet during this moment and not to speak any word loud enough for others to hear. Other than this, a mass is a mass, and I was glad to attend the mass.
 
Charismatic mass is ok by me so long as they aren’t rife with liturgical abuses, the people are reverent ,and Jesus is at the center of it.

The last “charismatic” mass i attended was by accident, and it involved an altar boy grabbing a couple of extra hosts in his bare hand, at the instruction of the priest, to bring to the priest so that there would be enough consecrated bread for all.
 
This is just an observation on the side, FWIW, but ISTM that the topic itself - Charismatic movement - in the Traditionalist forum seems to be provacative to begin with. Bringing it up here of all places seems to open the floodgates…

I just can’t help but wonder if it wasn’t meant to be somewhat provacative among an audience likely to harbor some rather strong opinions on the matter.

I also notice a subset of questions asked on the TC forum that don’t seem TC-specific - questions on morality and what not… I am left to wonder if the rationale for asking such questions in this forum isn’t part and parcel of a thinking that self-identified traditionalists will know the “real answer” and folks in “Litrugy and sacraments” “Apologetics” or “Catholic Living” can’t be trusted?

This seems to play into a very devisive mindset.
 
I still have no idea what’s done at a “Charismatic Mass”. Would someone mind detailing what usually happens?

Anything that distracts from the Holy Sacrifice is most certainly evil. People can do whatever they want outside of Mass, but during the Mass, you pray the prayers in a reverent fashion. Otherwise, you’re not praying the Mass.

Frankly, this “speaking in tongues” seems self-indulgent and utterly fake. I can’t understand what purpose there is in speaking gibberish, rolling on the floor, or laughing for no particular reason…
 
Dauphin said:
I still have no idea what’s done at a “Charismatic Mass”. Would someone mind detailing what usually happens?

Anything that distracts from the Holy Sacrifice is most certainly evil. People can do whatever they want outside of Mass, but during the Mass, you pray the prayers in a reverent fashion. Otherwise, you’re not praying the Mass.

Frankly, this “speaking in tongues” seems self-indulgent and utterly fake. I can’t understand what purpose there is in speaking gibberish, rolling on the floor, or laughing for no particular reason…
Click to expand...
i think a common attribute would be guitars and speaking in tongues when the host is elevated… lifting hands in praise and holding hands during the Our Father…

although these are not traditional, they might say the focus is in fact on Jesus. no one can really prove who is or isn’t fake when speaking in tongues, but that it lifts their spirits and brings them closer to Jesus.

the falling on the floor and laughing would be more likely during the prayer service after Mass, where they pray over each other.

in other words, a charismatic Mass would be on the far end of the spectrum where the OF/NO is, versus a low Latin Mass on the opposite end where the EF/TLM is. it has been difficult for people to prove certain things are outright abuses and should be removed, as many bishops, pastors, and priests all over the country don’t seem to have a problem with it.

it isn’t my cup of tea but if i had to make a pastoral decision, i would allow it, for now…
 
Speaking in tongues is a joke. Screaming in gibberish like a mental patient is not a gift of the Holy Spirit. Do people not understand that the tongues gift at the Pentecost was speaking in different languages that were actually languages.
 
johnnydigit said:
fyi our Holy Father B16 said to a community (not charismatic, but many practices Trads question) that they can celebrate their “style” of Mass on their own given that they follow the GIRM, but that they celebrate with the regular Parish community at least once a month.
Click to expand...
I am curious about the above comment that they also celebrate with the regular Parish community too. This sounds like the Holy Father is allowing them a method to practice something, but not necessarily saying such would be appropriate for a parish. Is this really representative of what we see in our churches?

I live in a town with a massive Charismatic presence, and every Mass here is at least in some measure “charismatic.” Regardless of whether I or anyone else is comfortable with these excesses, abuses or innovations we are forced, on our parish level, to both support and participate in them. They are not private actions of an organization, but the actual parish liturgies. I don’t think what you are describing above really applies to this, or reflects in any way how we as worshippers and Catholics should perceive our liturgical actions.
this again shows that even the Holy Father doesn’t subscribe to the “if it’s not specifically in the rubrics, it can’t be done” mentality. let’s not try to be holier than the Church and define for ourselves what an abuse is. we are blessed to be in a universal church, with many devotions and rites available for everyone.
Click to expand...
Are you sure the Holy Father is really saying “if it’s not specifically in the rubrics” it can be done? I don’t know. And didn’t he say that the GIRM had to be followed? And didn’t you also say that this community wasn’t exactly “charismatic.” So, what “abuses” is he really approving here?

Patrick
 
cothrige said:
I am curious about the above comment that they also celebrate with the regular Parish community too. This sounds like the Holy Father is allowing them a method to practice something, but not necessarily saying such would be appropriate for a parish. Is this really representative of what we see in our churches?

I live in a town with a massive Charismatic presence, and every Mass here is at least in some measure “charismatic.” Regardless of whether I or anyone else is comfortable with these excesses, abuses or innovations we are forced, on our parish level, to both support and participate in them. They are not private actions of an organization, but the actual parish liturgies. I don’t think what you are describing above really applies to this, or reflects in any way how we as worshippers and Catholics should perceive our liturgical actions.

Are you sure the Holy Father is really saying “if it’s not specifically in the rubrics” it can be done? I don’t know. And didn’t he say that the GIRM had to be followed? And didn’t you also say that this community wasn’t exactly “charismatic.” So, what “abuses” is he really approving here?

Patrick
Click to expand...
it’s a long story, i can pm you the gist of it if you want.

basically he was saying some of the things which they do, which is not traditional and not mentioned in the GIRM, are ok. of course each needs to be scrutinized carefully for approval. this is the opposite of what extreme traditionalists claim, that if it isn’t in the GIRM, it can’t be done, e.g. clapping.
 
Hi,

Well I want to say that I believe that a mass can have charismatic aspects and still remain faithful to the church.

I know that some people have trouble accepting clapping or raising hands in prayer but…

The Grim does not prohibit this. Please re-consider this:

The Pope and Bishops approve of teh Charismatic Renewal. Not only that, but they have held large charismatic masses in Rome with memebers from all over the world.

Now, if these kinds of actions were truly prohibited, then the Pope and Bishops would have definately said something to them and to us.

Doesn’t that make sense?

God bless you with so much love!
 
“Been there, done that”. The worst thing in the “charismatic Mass” is people running around hugging everyone, everywhere, during the sign of peace! (Remember Jesus on the altar?!) It took a “conversion experience” through the Blessed Mother for me to see some problems. See the thread in this Trad. forum on Pope B. XVI’s reforms relating to the Charismatic renewal.
 
johnnydigit said:
it’s a long story, i can pm you the gist of it if you want.
Click to expand...
That would be great, if you don’t mind. I would be interested in knowing more about just what happened.
basically he was saying some of the things which they do, which is not traditional and not mentioned in the GIRM, are ok. of course each needs to be scrutinized carefully for approval. this is the opposite of what extreme traditionalists claim, that if it isn’t in the GIRM, it can’t be done, e.g. clapping.
Click to expand...
Well, I think there is some place for common sense in these things. Obviously, if we maintain that not being in the Missal does not mean one shouldn’t do it, then things can get a bit crazy pretty quickly. For instance, nowhere in the Missal does it say I cannot juggle in the pews. Or that I cannot do cartwheels through the aisles. So, how far should such actions be allowed? And again, even if the Pope allows strange things during a Mass said in a community of some sort, does that really transfer over to what parishes can do? I don’t think that such is likely.

And I think the most important thing to keep in mind is the relative merit and legacy of the Charismatic “renewal.” I have been going to Mass in this town, an area with what appears to be a very strong Charismatic presence, for just about twelve years, and in that time have never heard a word of Latin. I have never heard a single Gregorian Chant. I have seen incense used, I believe, eight times, and have heard the confiteor used perhaps five times. But, on the good side, I have had the pleasure of hearing the Exultet during the Easter Vigil played on a tape deck. I have been physically assaulted by people who have clawed at my arms to force me to pray the Our Father their way more often than I can count. It has gotten so bad that I sometimes get up and leave the nave just before that prayer. I also get to hear everybody shout out names of sick relatives during the prayers, and get to see EMHC self communicate several times a year.

I can tell you from my own experience that the legacy of the Charismatic movement is abuse. It is uncharitable, pushy, and judgmental and will not tolerate that anyone associated with any parish it is strong in have the opportunity to worship in any manner other than theirs. The traditionalists around here may have faults, but they merely want one Mass a week done in the traditional way, and never seem to fight to stop all others from happening. But, these Charismatic types insist not only that they have access to their awful and ugly circuses but that every Mass be done that way too. I know I probably seem harsh, but I see this mess every week and am trying to raise three young children surrounded by it, and I will admit it does make me angry.

Patrick
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top