Thoughts on contraception

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So, if the Church in her Wisdom and thousands of years of existance comes to a fuller understanding of sex, then we’re some how crazy? Is that right?

You see, I don’t see the Church’s views on sex as being schizophrenic at all, infact they are quite balanced compared to secular society. We find the goal of chastity, within marriage and outside marriage a good virtue. This chastity is the proper use of our sexuality. For single people, that is no sex, for married people that’s engaging in the act when desired. That is elevating the marital embrace to a renewal of the sacrament. If the Church saw marriage as something less than desirable, I don’t think it would be a sacrament. The image of Christ as bridegroom and the Church his bride is not an immoral image. Marriage images the trinity. How can these images be deemed bad? Yet, you try…🤷
 
So, if the Church in her Wisdom and thousands of years of existance comes to a fuller understanding of sex, then we’re somehow crazy?
No, just inconsistent. The Church today casts sex within marriage in a much more positive light than the ECFs ever gave it – so much more positive that it can legitimately be said that the church’s stance on sex within marriage has changed rather than simply equipped with a “fuller understanding,” and I would argue that it is precisely because the Church didn’t change its stance on ABC right along with its stance on sex within marriage that many lay Catholics felt the Church was giving them a mixed message. To say that sex in marriage is something good and desirable (rather than as a necessary burden, as the ECFs saw it) and then put such limits on married couples’ capacity to enjoy it was, too many Catholics, self-contradictory on its face.
If the Church saw marriage as something less than desirable, I don’t think it would be a sacrament. The image of Christ as bridegroom and the Church his bride is not an immoral image. Marriage images the trinity. How can these images be deemed bad?
The Church never taught that marriage is immoral, nor am I trying to portray marriage as immoral. What the ECFs found immoral (though permissible because of the sacrament) was the desire to have sex for any reason other than procreation.

It’s kinda like the OT provision for divorce. God has always hated divorce, but he knew the Israelites couldn’t live up to a “no divorce” standard, so he provided regulations for divorce. Likewise, God has always hated incontinence, but the fact is that some people aren’t cut out for lifelong virginity – their passions are too strong for that – so God gives them the Sacrament of Marriage instead to provide a bridle for their passions and turn them toward childbearing.

What’s also important here is the existence of original sin, which at least some of the ECFs believed was transmitted from parents to child via sexual intercourse on account of the lust necessarily involved in having intercourse. People today try to distinguish between lust and “legitimate sexual desire”, but the ECFs made no such distinction and did not recognize such a thing as “legitimate sexual desire”. They understood that for the sake of procreation, married people made use of lust, thus turning an evil thing to a good purpose – but this turning of evil to good doesn’t make the evil itself good, and so the ECFs were always conscious that sin accompanied even those marriage acts which were done for the noblest of purposes (i.e., procreation). They didn’t condemn marriage. Rather, they condemned what necessarily accompanied the marriage act (i.e., the sin of lust).

–Mike
 
No, just inconsistent. The Church today casts sex within marriage in a much more positive light than the ECFs ever gave it –

–Mike
And yet again, ECF’s are not the end all and be all of Church doctrine.
 
I think that it’s fine to use because I’m a practical person. I’m not Catholic.
 
No, you are not understanding me correctly, and I repeat, not understanding the ECF’s either.

I specifically said that pleasure was not a purpose of the marriage act, but was instead a result. I hope you are not deliberately misunderstanding to promote some sort of teaching contrary to the Church’s teaching. There are 3 and only 3 purposes for the marriage act.

And yet again… yes the ECF’s did know that #2 was a purpose… Unity is secondary. Condoms (and withdrawl) are an affront to unity!!! A couple cannot unite if they are in fact NOT united. You are equating unity interchangeably with pleasure. Unity is unity. It means the two have become one flesh in the physical form.

They pointed out that procreation was the primary purpose. If there wasn’t a secondary or tertiary purpose there would be no need to point out a primary purpose! They would have said “The singular purpose…”

Please don’t twist words. I specifically said that pleasure was not a reason to initiate sex…It is however a naturally good result of sex. God made sex pleasurable so we would have sex!

I repeat, our late Holy Father made it very clear that celibacy was a higher form of marriage! Higher form. As in, “better than earthly marriage.” Did you even read my post?

St. Augustine was one of many ECF’s. His writings are not the be all, end all. The marriage act is not a venial sin. What they were saying is that **IF **the marriage act was to cure lust, then THAT was only a venial sin. The form of LUST was the venial sin, lust, not the marriage act! They were basically saying that they thought that most men lusted for their wives. They didn’t think it was possible (especially St. Augustine, former playboy) not to lust for one’s wife!

It was in fact proven that a married couple could love each other without lust. Our late Holy Father canonized the first married couple. You don’t have to put down marriage in an effort to elevate celibacy. In fact what JPII was teaching is that they tend to rise and fall together! The society that honors marriage honors celibacy and vice versa. The society that degrades marriage, degrades celibacy.
Since God to my knowledge NEVER experienced SEX, how exactly would he know if it was pleasurable? And if HE wanted us to have and enjoy sex, then why there are so many restrictions?
Why can’t sometimes a wife and husband have sex, just for the pleasure of it and for NO other reasons?

Since I have been on this forum and learned about the ONLY reason to have sex, my sex life has suffered so much. Now, since I know that the only way for sex to be acceptable by God is
to be a complete act, if my husband touches me or just wants to be touched and we are not in the mood to procreate, we just retreat to separate rooms till the urge passes. Does God really want for sex to be a chore?

I know nobody is going to agree with me, no one ever does when I post something, but hey, freedom of speech is still acceptable or are there conditions to that also?
 
And yet again, ECF’s are not the end all and be all of Church doctrine.
And he doesn’t understand them anyway. He confuses their personal opinions with consistent teaching. They have to agree and it has to be taught down through the years to be authentic teaching. He claims Orthodoxy which has embraced contraception (clearly a change in teaching.) He finds sex to be distasteful and actually sinful.

Intercourse has nothing to do with Original Sin. The ECF were not quite up to explaining conception, something they couldn’t see. It is by our conception that we inherit Original Sin. It has nothing to do with the act of our parents. By the OP’s logic, IVF babies are free from Original Sin because they were not conceived through sexual intercourse. By the OP’s logic Our Lady could only be without original sin if her parents never had sex! WOW! Folks, this is what happens when one takes an illogical assumption to its illogical conclusion.

Jennifer J, as always, your posts are spot on, and I always enjoy our exchange of ideas. Thank you! I cannot continue to post in this thread, though, because it is so off the mark. But I didn’t want anyone thinking that the OP had scared me off with his supposed “success.”

Mommomamats, please feel free to PM me or any of us who have a clear understanding of Church teaching and the marital act. I am sorry that my statements to the the OP here caused you distress. The Church wants you to enjoy the marital life and the marital act. Those of us who embrace authentic Church teaching would like to help you and your husband move away from the empty act of withdrawl toward a more fulfilling marriage. God bless you!!
 
Since God to my knowledge NEVER experienced SEX, how exactly would he know if it was pleasurable? And if HE wanted us to have and enjoy sex, then why there are so many restrictions?
Why can’t sometimes a wife and husband have sex, just for the pleasure of it and for NO other reasons?

Since I have been on this forum and learned about the ONLY reason to have sex, my sex life has suffered so much. Now, since I know that the only way for sex to be acceptable by God is
to be a complete act, if my husband touches me or just wants to be touched and we are not in the mood to procreate, we just retreat to separate rooms till the urge passes. Does God really want for sex to be a chore?

I know nobody is going to agree with me, no one ever does when I post something, but hey, freedom of speech is still acceptable or are there conditions to that also?
I will be happy to answer your questions. Please start a new thread and PM me. The short answer lies in bringing your sexual urges in line with God’s plan for your family. With a deep prayer life, you will find that you and your husband will want to be together when God wants you to be together.

You are kidding in asking how God could know that sex is pleasurable, right? If that is a legitimate question we have bigger things than sex to discuss.
 
Since God to my knowledge NEVER experienced SEX, how exactly would he know if it was pleasurable? And if HE wanted us to have and enjoy sex, then why there are so many restrictions?
Why can’t sometimes a wife and husband have sex, just for the pleasure of it and for NO other reasons?

Since I have been on this forum and learned about the ONLY reason to have sex, my sex life has suffered so much. Now, since I know that the only way for sex to be acceptable by God is
to be a complete act, if my husband touches me or just wants to be touched and we are not in the mood to procreate, we just retreat to separate rooms till the urge passes. Does God really want for sex to be a chore?

I know nobody is going to agree with me, no one ever does when I post something, but hey, freedom of speech is still acceptable or are there conditions to that also?
I’m not quite sure what you’ve been reading here but I can assure you the church’s teaching on sex is not as restrictive as some would have you believe and certainly it is more free than most think. And I really thought those guys that “no playa the game, should no maka the rules” KWIM?

God does not want sex to be a chore. He does not want you two in separate rooms because you can’t control yourselves. He really does want you to love each other. Sometimes we forget that it might be shown in a non-sexual way. But I’m getting ahead of things.

If you want to skip all the personal opin that can be found on these forums, I suggest you pick up one of these two books and decide for yourself. CW and GP know what TOB is all about. If you want CD’s or MP3’s let me know. I’ve got lots of pointers.
 
And he doesn’t understand them anyway. He confuses their personal opinions with consistent teaching. They have to agree and it has to be taught down through the years to be authentic teaching.
Well, wouldn’t a reasonable person expect that to be the test of authentic truth?
He claims Orthodoxy which has embraced contraception (clearly a change in teaching.)
Agreed. When Orthodoxy changed its attitude toward sex in marriage, it changed its teaching on birth control accordingly.
He finds sex to be distasteful and actually sinful.
That’s a lie. I myself don’t find sex distasteful, nor do I personally think that sex in marriage is sinful. The ECFs treated it as such in their writings, and I’m trying to convey what they thought about it, because what they thought about it is the basis for the Church’s long-standing ban on birth control.
Intercourse has nothing to do with Original Sin.
Says you, not the ECFs. And we should all trust you rather than them why?
It is by our conception that we inherit Original Sin. It has nothing to do with the act of our parents.
That’s not what the ECFs taught.
By the OP’s logic, IVF babies are free from Original Sin because they were not conceived through sexual intercourse.
Very good refutation. Of course, all you’re doing is demonstrating that the ECFs really didn’t have a clue what they were talking about, which I think is something many people would find disturbing to contemplate. They were, after all, the people who passed down the Christian faith to us, right?
By the OP’s logic Our Lady could only be without original sin if her parents never had sex!
DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! We have a winner! That’s exactly the argument used by the ECFs to justify the total sinlessness of Christ’s conception – he was not born through sexual intercourse!
WOW! Folks, this is what happens when one takes an illogical assumption to its illogical conclusion.
Welcome to the realm of “doctrinal development,” my dear. It happens all the time.

–Mike
 
That’s a lie. I myself don’t find sex distasteful, nor do I personally think that sex in marriage is sinful. The ECFs treated it as such in their writings, and I’m trying to convey what they thought about it, because what they thought about it is the basis for the Church’s long-standing ban on birth control.
–Mike
Actually, the Church does NOT, NOT, NOT (get it, NOT) base the ban on CONTRACEPTION, on the EFC’s.
 
what does EFC stand for? also what is ABC besides the first three
letters of the alphabet!
 
And yet again, ECF’s are not the end all and be all of Church doctrine.
Are the modern Popes’ documents (i.e. Humanae Vitae) the be all and end all of Church doctrine?

I think mpartyka raises some interesting points, mainly that the sacrament of marriage is not a bad thing but that pursuing relations within marriage for reasons other than procreation or curing concupiscence is a venial (though pardonable) sin.

Clearly, Humane Vitae does not present relations within marriage this way. So far, the only argument in response to that (that I have seen on this thread) is something along the lines of what Jennifer wrote above.

I think a better response to mpartyka’s questions are warranted. If you think that the prior Church fathers were mistaken then why? If you think that Humanae Vitae trumps past teaching, why?
 
Actually, the Church does NOT, NOT, NOT (get it, NOT) base the ban on CONTRACEPTION, on the EFC’s.
It did back in the day when the Early Church Fathers weren’t considered “early.” Certainly none of the ECFs who taught against birth control (unless you’ve got a reference I haven’t seen yet) did so for the same reasons the Church puts forward today.

The simple truth of the matter is that the ECFs possessed an understanding of human sexuality in which sin was a necessary accessory, even in marriage, to the sex act – sin wasn’t necessarily held to be part of the sex act itself, but sin was always present with the sex act.

Consider all these examples from the Fathers (and I’m not even halfway done digging yet):
But God has allowed us to marry, because all are not fit for the higher, that is, the perfectly pure life… – Origen, Against Celsus 8:55
But the Son of God has no mother in any sense which involves impurity; she, whom men suppose to be His mother in the ordinary way, had never entered into the marriage bond. – Tertullian, Apology 21
For the Lord Jesus would not have chosen to be born of a Virgin, if He had conceived she would be so wanting in continence as to suffer that birthplace of the Lord’s Body, that palace of the eternal King, to be polluted by human intercourse…she was only espoused to her husband Joseph; and…she was ignorant of that carnal commerce which is the accustomed right of the marriage bed… – Ambrose of Milan, Letter on the Case of Bonosus 3-4
Such, then, was the laughter of Sarah when she received the good news of the birth of a son; not, in my opinion, that she disbelieved the angel, but that she felt ashamed of the intercourse by means of which she was destined to become the mother of a son. – Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6:12
And we see men also keeping themselves virgins, some from the first, and some from a certain time; so that by their means, marriage, made lawless through lust, is destroyed. And we find that some even of the lower animals, though possessed of wombs, do not bear, such as the mule; and the male mules do not beget their kind. So that both in the case of men and the irrational animals we can see sexual intercourse abolished; and this, too, before the future world. And our Lord Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, for no other reason than that He might destroy the begetting by lawless desire, and might show to the ruler that the formation of man was possible to God without human intervention. – Justin Martyr, On the Resurrection 3
Let lust not go beyond the marriage-bed, but be subservient to the procreation of children. – Lactantius, The Divine Institutes - Epitome 62
The good, then, of marriage lies not in the passion of desire, but in a certain legitimate and honourable measure in using that passion, appropriate to the propagation of children, not the gratification of lust…it [is] good to use well a bad thing. – Augustine, On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins, and on the Baptism of Infants 1:57
Can there be any doubt, having all these testimonies at our disposal, that marital intercourse must, according to the views of the ECFs, have involved some measure of sin (or “impurity”, or “pollution”, or “defilement”, etc., etc.)?

By all means, feel free to say, “That’s not what the Church teaches about sex in marriage! The Church teaches that sex in marriage is 100% holy and good!” I can believe that. What I cannot believe, in light of all these testimonies from the ECFs, is that the Church has always taught this.

Like it or not, the facts are the facts, and the facts say that the Catholic Church’s teaching on sex in marriage has, over the centuries, changed.

–Mike
 
What I cannot believe, in light of all these testimonies from the ECFs, is that the Church has always taught this.

Like it or not, the facts are the facts, and the facts say that the Catholic Church’s teaching on sex in marriage has, over the centuries, changed.
Let’s remember that in order to show that Church doctrine has changed, you need to establish two things. First, you need to show, in this case, that what these ECFs taught was in fact Church doctrine. Second, you have to show that what they taught and what the Church teaches now are logically contradictory, that the two can’t simultaneously be true.

Let’s take the first point for now. If we can’t get past that, there’s no reason to consider the second point.

Have you established that what these ECFs said was, in fact, Church doctrine?
 
Have you established that what these ECFs said was, in fact, Church doctrine?
I haven’t made a full survey yet…still working on that…but every ECF I’ve found who has preached on the subject shares the consensus I’ve presented.

Does that make it “Church doctrine”? No, I suppose not technically, but let me ask for the sake of argument: What if I finish my survey and am able to report that every ECF to whose writings I have access online preached the same way? Would that make it “Church doctrine” then?

What if I were able to find all the offline writings of the ECFs and peruse them, too, and find that they all still share the same consensus? Say I found 100 ECFs…or 200…or 500. At what point would you be forced to look me in the eye and say, “You’re right. This consensus was Church doctrine then, but Church doctrine has since changed.” Would you ever get to that point, or would you, in spite of all the evidence I could present, still hold that this consensus shared among the ECFs isn’t “Church doctrine” because it doesn’t match what the Church teaches today?

–Mike
 
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