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Xantippe
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Oh!
I get the feeling she’s not in the US, though. British? They seem to love Florida.
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I get the feeling she’s not in the US, though. British? They seem to love Florida.
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schoolteacher68
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actually Ontario, Canada…in about 3 years I’ll be close to $100K and he’s in trucking…no shortage of jobs, just not good paying jobs (unless he wants to do long haul which he doesn’t)…
a lot of the debt was a result of the divorce (paying the ex off, plus paying support for three kids in US funds, which when exchanged into Canadian, was a horrific monthly amount)…
I do love his companionship for more than just motorcycling…like I said, we enjoy dancing, cooking, having bonfires in his backyard, listening to music, playing pool, going to mass, we both volunteer in our parishes, we study scripture, theology, apologetics etc. together…in many ways, he is a great partner…I’m not a “girlie girl” and I don’t need (or want) presents showered on me all the time…which in this case works to his favour LOL…
I guess I have three options here:
a lot of the debt was a result of the divorce (paying the ex off, plus paying support for three kids in US funds, which when exchanged into Canadian, was a horrific monthly amount)…
I do love his companionship for more than just motorcycling…like I said, we enjoy dancing, cooking, having bonfires in his backyard, listening to music, playing pool, going to mass, we both volunteer in our parishes, we study scripture, theology, apologetics etc. together…in many ways, he is a great partner…I’m not a “girlie girl” and I don’t need (or want) presents showered on me all the time…which in this case works to his favour LOL…
I guess I have three options here:
- end it flat out and start over after taking some time off from dating to be by myself to re-evaluate exactly what I’m looking for in a partner
- continue dating and doing things within his means or be satisfied footing the majority of our entertaining expenses
- and this would only apply IF we were to get married (which would definitely not be any time soon), get a pre-nuptial agreement that clearly stated all assets and debts owned by each individual going into the marriage would remain that sole person’s responsibility if the marriage dissolved…any joint assets and liabilities would remain both parties’ responsibilities
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Xantippe
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schoolteacher68
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thanks Xantippe…your responses are great!
the son living with him does have a job…his eldest is in the US Marines…his daughter at home with the ex in FL in grade 11…she’s very bright and will most likely get a full scholarship based on her marks…the one living here plans to get into the CDN military and they will pay for his schooling, provided he gets good marks…
I have talked with our priest about pre-nuptial agreements and he felt they were ok in certain circumstances…I guess I’ll have to look further into this though…just as a back up option…
but yeah, I agree, we definitely need to have a long, good discussion about all this…
well I am off to see my grade 2’s do their First Communion…
thanks again everyone…like I said, just “chatting” is helping…
the son living with him does have a job…his eldest is in the US Marines…his daughter at home with the ex in FL in grade 11…she’s very bright and will most likely get a full scholarship based on her marks…the one living here plans to get into the CDN military and they will pay for his schooling, provided he gets good marks…
I have talked with our priest about pre-nuptial agreements and he felt they were ok in certain circumstances…I guess I’ll have to look further into this though…just as a back up option…
but yeah, I agree, we definitely need to have a long, good discussion about all this…
well I am off to see my grade 2’s do their First Communion…
thanks again everyone…like I said, just “chatting” is helping…
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Xantippe
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Best wishes!
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Xantippe
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I can’t find anything good on Catholics and prenups, but I should mention that Dave Ramsey’s advice is not to get one unless marital assets are in the $2 million range (and presumably when there are children from previous relationships). DR says that large amounts of money attract weirdness, perhaps not even from the prospective spouse, but from other people connected to the prospective spouse.
"For years I told people never to do prenuptial agreements. I always said if you love your money more than you love your spouse, then you’re too immature and selfish to be married.
“However, I’ve changed my tune on this subject a little bit recently. When one or two wealthy people get married, the problems that can arise usually have nothing to do with those two people. The problem is that it can invite a lot of crazy into your lives from the outside. Whether it’s a parent, cousin or child, sometimes people start feeling a sense of entitlement when wealth is suddenly thrust into the picture.”
daveramsey.com/davesays/column/column/dave_says_2014-05-26
But definitely get good canonical advice. If CAF is unhelpful, you might even want to make some phone calls to your diocese to talk to a canon lawyer for advice.
Good luck!
"For years I told people never to do prenuptial agreements. I always said if you love your money more than you love your spouse, then you’re too immature and selfish to be married.
“However, I’ve changed my tune on this subject a little bit recently. When one or two wealthy people get married, the problems that can arise usually have nothing to do with those two people. The problem is that it can invite a lot of crazy into your lives from the outside. Whether it’s a parent, cousin or child, sometimes people start feeling a sense of entitlement when wealth is suddenly thrust into the picture.”
daveramsey.com/davesays/column/column/dave_says_2014-05-26
But definitely get good canonical advice. If CAF is unhelpful, you might even want to make some phone calls to your diocese to talk to a canon lawyer for advice.
Good luck!
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styrgwillidar
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(Disclosure- perspective of a single father, ex both legal and via declaration of nullity decided to leave the marriage and just visit the kids)
A question-- what are you working for? I mean, other than the bills and to support yourself? Why are you spending the hours of your life working and accumulating wealth-- what are you trying to achieve other than a number that appears on your bank or retirement statement each month? What do you want from life and how is your financial status/ability going to assist you in achieving it? That is, the wealth shouldn’t/isn’t the goal- joy from life is, correct? What’s the most productive way to spend your money to bring joy and happiness into your life? If this guy brings a lot of joy into your life, and if he’s like my brother-in-law who has stuck by his wife through horrible bouts of cancer, colostomy bags, operations, etc. etc. etc.— He just might be the best investment you could make. You’re in the position of a lot of folks in relationships with disparities in income-- do they love/like me, or my finance? Or perhaps the two are related- they love and appreciate your ability to do your job and be successful and reap the benefits and they respect you all the more for it?
Financial compatibility is a huge deal in marriage, it does lead to the breakdown of a lot of marriages when the spouses aren’t in synch. You’ve indicated he’s had a lot of responsibilities, but not that he was irresponsible in handing them. You haven’t indicated he’s being foreclosed on, pushed into bankruptcy, dodging creditors etc. (My buddy is spending 2/3s of his salary between alimony and paying off the community debt. Always was a responsible guy, never spent more than he had, didn’t buy luxury cars etc. and still was paying half of one of his kid’s college expenses even though he got stuck with all the debt from the marriage. Long lead time planning by his ex, on the advice of a lawyer she quit her job over a year before filing for divorce to ensure she’d get a better alimony arrangement and he’d get stuck with all the accumulated debt (she also ran the credit cards up). He supported her quitting to pursue interests/hobbies. That kind of guy.) So without knowing all the ugly details, can’t say whether your boyfriend is actually financially irresponsible-- did he avoid long haul so he can be around for his kid? That’s an admirable decision in some ways to prioritize time with his kid over more money than required to meet his needs. When the kid is in college, will Dad be more amenable to long haul and make better cash? Bottom line though is, it is completely reasonable to decide a relationship will not work long term based on how you each approach finances.
Conflict over kids from a prior marriage is also a big factor in the breakdown of a lot of marriages. I’m a bit uncomfortable with him having talked about your assisting his kid with college expenses but, I appear to be out of step with society on that one, I know a lot of guys who are assisting with getting their step-kids through college. In many cases contributing as much as the child’s actual mother and father are. It seems to be the expectation now- dad’s gonna help his second wife pay for her kids from the first marriage/prior relationship. My daughter was pushing for me to date, and I pointed out to her if I did it would require balancing resources between someone I hadn’t even met yet and my kids. That someone would reasonably expect me to devote some time, effort, and finances on the relationship. She was cool with my staying single after that. However, that is the reality of a single parent-- a relationship is another competing interest for time and other resources. It is easier to avoid setting up the conflict in the first place.
I don’t think the pre-nup is in line with Catholic philosophy/doctrine but I think anyone who doesn’t get a good one is being financially irresponsible. Lot of my friends learned the hard way that the biggest threat to their financial well-being was marriage/divorce. Mine turned out far better than most. Of course, I’m assuming you would insist on a pre-nuptial regardless of whether you’re the higher or lower income spouse. If you were to break up and find someone financially better off than you, you would approve of and sign a pre-nup in that case as well. Right?
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StGerardMajella
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…and a fourth option being to help your boyfriend learn better money management skills, either through formal financial literacy classes and education, or self-study.
So, if you make $100M, and he earns roughly $50M, that’s a considerable amount of money per year together to live comfortably and to wipe out debt in a relatively short period of time.
When I married my wife, she had student loan debt. Together, we worked hard, saved our money, and wrote a check to pay off the full balance in one clean sweep. It can be done, and it can be a wonderful team achievement to celebrate. It made our marriage stronger, and showed my wife that our finances weren’t just about me alone.
Be careful here. Pre-nuptial agreements can create a spiritual block or hindrance and can set the wrong expectation that “what is mine is mine”. Marriage is all about teamwork, sacrifice, and combined efforts.
When my wife and I were engaged, we went through several classes with a couple of very conservative, traditional priests. One of the pieces of advice we were given and that we still follow today is to have a joint checking account and to delegate the wife take care of the bills.
Yes, we sit down and go through our budget every month in advance, but she pays all the actual bills. So, we have the best of both worlds - She has the comfort of being intimately familiar with the family finances, but we have the teamwork together on financial decision-making. If you had a similar arrangement, if you were to get married, it might alleviate some of your worries.
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Xantippe
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Zzyzx_Road
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No one seems to mention it, but a critical bedrock of a successful marriage is that the wife must respect her husband. The husband’s obligation is to act in ways that help his wife maintain that respect for him.
I grant that there may be extenuating circumstances to the boyfriend’s financial issues related to his divorce, job choices, etc. But it must be said that if he cannot get a grip on his issues and make discernible movement toward resolving them, if instead he’s counting on the OP to bail him out and pay for his son’s college, that is almost certain to lead to her loss of respect for him. No two ways about that.
The OP’s conditions for marriage should include him getting his financial act together. Give him another year to figure it out before walking down the aisle. If the conditions appear to be set up for the OP to lose her respect for him over this, that’s not a marriage she wants to be in. She says he’s a hard worker, let him show that hard working nature toward shoring up his finances.
I grant that there may be extenuating circumstances to the boyfriend’s financial issues related to his divorce, job choices, etc. But it must be said that if he cannot get a grip on his issues and make discernible movement toward resolving them, if instead he’s counting on the OP to bail him out and pay for his son’s college, that is almost certain to lead to her loss of respect for him. No two ways about that.
The OP’s conditions for marriage should include him getting his financial act together. Give him another year to figure it out before walking down the aisle. If the conditions appear to be set up for the OP to lose her respect for him over this, that’s not a marriage she wants to be in. She says he’s a hard worker, let him show that hard working nature toward shoring up his finances.
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Xantippe
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Yes.
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TexasCatholic13
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You are 47 years old and divorced with a good man who has a lousy paying job? At your age take what you can get. You have a pretty good deal.
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Xantippe
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$50k is not lousy.
And his income is not the problem–it’s his debt and the fact that his outgo exceeds his income.
If he made $20k a year and was actually managing to live on it, he would be a better prospect.
There’s no income that you can’t overspend.
aarp.org/money/credit-loans-debt/info-12-2012/celebrities-who-went-broke-slideshow.html#slide1
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StGerardMajella
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So true. I have personally reviewed the tax returns of high income earners who spend all they make, and then some. It’s not how much you earn as it is how much you can save and invest.
At $50,000 per year, this sounds like a “budget discipline and habits” issue rather than an income issue. It would become even less of an issue if the incomes are eventually combined to an estimated $150,000 at some future point.
Agreed. It has to be a mutual effort and sacrifice. That’s why financial literacy classes would help the boyfriend. I would recommend that they both attend these financial literacy classes together.
If marriage is in the picture in the future, pre-marriage counseling with a priest should be seriously considered as well.
The traditional priests that conducted our marriage preparatory classes insisted that the wife pay the bills. They also were strong advocates for the wife staying home and managing the household, with the father focused on his employment outside the house. If the wife had to work, it should only be part-time. They were quite adamant that this was the ideal arrangement whenever feasible. If it couldn’t be done immediately, we should work towards this arrangement.
Interestingly enough, this advice was given right around the height of the financial crisis when companies weren’t hiring at the time. I remember thinking at the time that the priests had no idea about the current status of the economy, which for a lot of folks was about survival. Looking back, however, I think it it is sound advice for most couples.
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NFPWife
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I’m with Xantippe, you want to focus less on the income and more on his behavior. Your bailing him out would accomplish nothing to change his behavior. I know people where both spouses are making six figures and they’re in a ridiculous amount of debt.
From what I’ve gleaned from your posts, we have similar educations, professions, and wealth accumulation so I may over identify here, but here’s what I would do if I were you – I would treat every comment about paying his debt or his son’s college as a “test;” I wouldn’t let those comments slide by innocuously.
The first time he said either, if we were face to face, I’d tilt my head to the side and “pull a face” a face that says, “There’s a ridiculous idea.” If we were on the phone I’d do a loooong pause with a “Well, anyway…” and do a quick subject change to something totally unrelated.
The next time I’d go with the “Why would I want to do that?” or “You can’t possibly be serious.”
If paying the son’s college came up again I’d say, “That is never going to happen. Please don’t ask (hint, mention) it again.”
If paying his debt came up again I’d say, “I need to see that you can be responsible with your money before I’d ever consider mingling mine with yours. If you get on a written budget and make some serious traction on the debt, I might feel differently, but, right now, I’m not bailing you out. Don’t ask (hint, mention) it again.”
If it came up after that – I’d say “Asked and answered,” and move on. (And if either kept coming up, I’d move on - literally.)
Your answering very directly will tell you a lot about how he regards you. It will help you weed out if he sees you merely as a financial windfall. As I said, I think he’s testing you, take control of that. You’re the teacher, you make the answer key
FTR, I believe that couples should have combined accounts, unless there is a significant reason not to (addiction, financial infidelity, etc.) so my saying, “I won’t be combining my money with yours or bailing you out” means “I don’t consider you marriage material.”
I consider dating an extended interview process for determining if someone is marriage material. Once you (general you, not you specifically) determine that the person is not marriage material, it’s time to make a clean break. No sense wasting their time or yours or waiting around for things to change while feelings deepen. (I’ll be married 24 years this July, that extended interview process worked out quite well.)
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Brianmcg321
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I thought the same thing. He needs to hit the road.
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NFPWife
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That’s the part that makes me think he’s testing to see what he can get out of her.
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Gilly_flower
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I’m not sure how much this couple have in common apart from motorbikes and religion…
There seems to be some intellectual, or at least educational, disparity here and also in attitude…I don’t get the impression the poster is that enamoured of his children, and values her independence to travel…will she be content to stay home on a budget spending her money on “their” kids?
And while I think it is important that a couple shares ideals, I don’t think the fact he is a fellow Catholic should be the overriding factor here - and once married his debts will become their debts.
And while it is easy to resist the idea of paying his children’s way through college now, it will be much harder when they are her stepchildren…
I think this is a dodgy deal frankly…and very one-sided.
There seems to be some intellectual, or at least educational, disparity here and also in attitude…I don’t get the impression the poster is that enamoured of his children, and values her independence to travel…will she be content to stay home on a budget spending her money on “their” kids?
And while I think it is important that a couple shares ideals, I don’t think the fact he is a fellow Catholic should be the overriding factor here - and once married his debts will become their debts.
And while it is easy to resist the idea of paying his children’s way through college now, it will be much harder when they are her stepchildren…
I think this is a dodgy deal frankly…and very one-sided.
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Edmundus1581
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:yup:
Your choices are: stay single; take a guy with better mpmru and no faith (plenty of them); or* wait* for a guy with faith AND money.
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Xantippe
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I think there may be intellectual compatibility (I think she said they read a lot of the same stuff), but it is true that if she marries him, she has to be willing to shoulder his debts and help his children (at least get through college). And that is going to be a major shock to her system, in terms of material quality of life.
There’s material here for a lot of talks: 1) she is willing to help him, but he has to be helping him, too (so, he needs to do a personal finance class, do budgets and pay off debt) and 2) how far does he believe that help to adult children should go?
Either of those ought to be deal breakers if the answers are wrong. If he is not willing to budget or deny himself, it will be easy for her to lose respect for him. If he has no boundaries about the financial support of adult children, $150k a year could vanish in the twinkling of an eye.
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