Thoughts on "faith alone" - I welcome your responses

[Pitcharan]

Did you submit the work for approval? or are you presenting others material?

Yes, I did submit and it is my material

If you have approval then why did you say previously that all churches were against you?

You easily misread me friend. Here’s what I said:

I share below some original thoughts which I believe, are not really contrary to other christian / catholic beliefs, though different. However, I have run into rough weather with many catholics and non-catholics, when I shared these views on other threads.

In Rom 5:20 it says “…where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:” you said sin were the disobedient and grace were the obedient. To that I replied with Rom 3:9 to show that all were sinners but that grace (God’s unmerited favor) was there. I was saying you wrongly deduced this passage.

True, all were sinners. But they included wicked stiff-necked incorrigible ones as well as those who found favor with God, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, …and called the remnant of God

I do regard you as sincere. I have considered your definition. There is the basic definition of grace - God’s unmerited favor - and there are different types of grace; such as, saving, sanctifying, etc. yet they all are unmerited.

I pondered and researched for years to arrive at this understanding and have reasons to believe that it was inspiration. The word unmerited is used so loosely. Do you believe that Mother Mary was chosen by God without any merit. Her confession of her low estate in the Magnificat, is itself a great merit of unparalled humility. If all blessings are without merit why do we need religion or scriptures or guidance for salvation.

While humility and gratitude are important and signs of maturity, they are not a formula for increasing faith. Your conclusion that asking God for something equates to humility that leads to grace that leads to faith is not sound. It takes faith to even ask in the first place.

Read Luke 17:5-10. Our Lord reveals that humility is the formula for increasing faith.

It is hard to debate this because your position and mine have the same elements; faith, grace, humility, gratitude, etc. Like a jigsaw puzzle, we have arranged them differently and thus have a different picture.

Are we debating or are we jointly searching for “fullness of truth”?

I thought you had approval, imprimatur and nihil obstat?

Years after approval and publishing, I noticed that even Thomas Kempis has defined “grace” almost identically. His book also was granted NIHIL OBSTAT and IMPRIMATUR. This only proves, though being different from the church’s definition, it does not conflict with it

It takes grace to abide but grace is not the ability to abide. Permit me to use this example: it takes money to live but money is not the ability to live.

Please read John’s gospel. He says, Moses merely gave the Law, but Grace came through Jesus. My understanding of this: Jesus demonstrated what it means to fulfil the righteous requirements of the law, and showed us the means to abide in God’s law through love which enables one to abide. Permit me to use this example: In my country there was till recently a law called POTA (Prevention Of Terrorism Act). Mere observing the law would me not allowing terror to happen through vigilance and penal measures. Fulfilling its righteous requirements would mean, spreading love and removing hatred and rooting out evil from human hearts

How do you receive a free gift? We respond to the free gift and we do not frustrate His grace, we cooperate with our will. This is different from doing works to receive from God. This would make faith and grace payment for our work.

True, that God freely showers His gifts. But it requires love, gratitude, obedience and humility to truly benefit from these gifts. Some call it, living a worthy life. I call it laboring for God’s wage. Is my semantics objectionable?

 

[guanophore]

A common question for JonNC and Guanaphore:

If you were touched by the humility of someone under your authority and rewarded the person, isn’t it appropriate to say that the person earned the reward through humility?

Yes, I think it is appropriate. The problem here is not so much your concept, as the language. When one uses such language with our separated brethren, they easily misunderstand it. One must be mindful that a major factor in the Reformation was the appearance that grace/salvation had to be “earned” or purchased. This misunderstanding persists today among many Protestants and even poorly catechized Catholics.

Though everything from God is a gift, there are specific ways to gain God’s gifts. If it was God’s plan to gift mankind with “faith”, then these verses suggest something else:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16).
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— (John 1:12).

You lost me here.

If you wish I can cite several instances in the gospels that suggest that “faith” is earned through humility. Just consider the instance when the apostles specifically queried about how to increase faith (Lk 17:5-10).

Faith is a characteristic of being human. It is as much a part of our created makup as our hands, feet, emotions, mind, etc. Faith can be exercised and grow, faith can be neglected and die, it can be misplaced, or properly placed (in God). The latter cannot occur without His grace.

When we exercise the faith that was given to us by God both as part of our creation and by His grace, it grows, and we experience rewards (to those who have, more will be given).

I share below my understanding (bold font) and invite your comments:

Lk 17:5 The apostles request the Lord to increase their faith.
*The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” *

If they could increase it themselves, why were they asking Him to do it?

Lk 17:6- Our Lord points out that they hardly have faith by describing what a little bit of faith can achieve
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.

I am not sure how this supports your premise that faith is earned.

vvLk 17:7-10 Our Lord reveals that the key to gaining faith is HUMILITY.

Yes, definitely a KEY. And this is the most important aspect to stress apologetically. We must be properly disposed to benefit best from His grace.

 

[guanophore]

CERTAINLY, WHY NOT
In fact, it is the humble who receive favors; the proud either spurn it or demand as a right.

Because the desire for a reward is, in itself, a prideful state.

 

[guanophore]

You are trying to make works out of gratitude and humility. They are fruits of our heavenly relationship that enable us to do good works.

No, he is pointing out that they ARE works. These are the ergos hagios, the good works, created through us by grace, that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. If it were not up to us to exercise gratitude and humilty, then God would not instruct us to do so.

 Remember, Jesus is the vine we are the branches and apart from Him we cannot bear fruit. Being humble does not earn faith but if we give our wills over to the truth of the gospel we receive faith by the grace of God.

You are both saying the same thing. When we say “merit” we are talking about yielding our wills to the Truth of the gospel from which we receive His gifts. In this sense, being humble does bring the reward of faith. It is our responsibiltiy to cling to that vine, from which these gifts emanate.

You are reading into scripture here. Also adding to scripture. Satan cannot inject pride. Satans sin was pride because he wanted to ascend higher than God. Eve was not desiring this but she was deceived because of her senses and unbelief in God’s word.

Satan can influence all of the lower aspects of our nature, including the inclination toward pride.

 

[guanophore]

Yes I know. Our gratitude earns Grace to abide. The good fruit produced by abiding earns Faith through spiritual vision

The problematic part of this is not the theological formulation, but the use of the word “earn”. It will be nearly impossible to communicate the principle you are advocating if you use this term.

You may dispute the semantics; but you cannot say I am adding to scripture. If a human being is deceived by Satan and becomes proud, obviously it means Satan has injected pride. Would Eve ever become proud without Satan’s deception? DO NOT FALSELY ACCUSE ME OF ADDING TO SCRIPTURE.
How did Eve’s unbelief come about suddenly? How did she become spiritually blind? This is the process: ingratitude blocks abiding Grace and exposes humans to assault by Satan. The result is pride, disobedience, carnal cravings…and loss of faith

Yes, you are adding your concept of “injection”. This is not a Scriptural concept. On the contrary, scripture indicates that sin is waiting at the door, and if we do not overcome it, then we will fall prey to it. There is no scriptural concept that sin is “injected” into us.

 

[guanophore]

I am merely saying that the gospels clearly teach that humility and other works of love, earn faith.

This is kinda like saying “feeding yourself when you are hungry earns you a stomach”. We are made with the capacity for faith. Our faith grows when we practice humility and other works of love, and such practice merits more grace (God gives grace to the humble), and that grace, in turn, fertilizes our faith, making it grow more.

Whether it is the only way is something that does not interest me.

Maybe not, but it needs to be taken into account when we are making a defense of our faith. If you are forwarding a spiritual principle,and your hearer sees a situation in which your principle does not apply, then it will be grounds for rejecting the princple.

 I am aware that we receive it freely through baptism as did the jews through circumcision. But to sustain and grow in faith, it requires humility. Our Lord showcased humble gentiles and lauded their faith, thus teaching that anybody outside the church can gain faith through humility and other works of love.

No, I don’t think so. When a person exercises faith in Christ, they do so because in some measure (albeit improperly) they are joined to the Church. They have become a partaker of HIs grace, which flows through the Church. They may not be a member of the visible Church, but if Christ is their Head, they are members of His One Body, the Church.

This cannot be debated because you and me do not share the same meaning for the word “grace”.

Then that is the point to begin. If you are trying to foward a principle that is based on grace, as you clearly are, then a common understanding of grace will be most helpful.

 Humble enough like you who does not feel deserving a reward for your love and humility but treat your faith as God's gift

This does not answer the question, Pitch. How humble is humble enough? And how do you account for those who are knocked down by God’s grace in spite of being arrogant and proud?

A proud person is humbled so that he/she may realise and change. This opportunity is given to all, though only some like the ‘prodigal son’ respond by seeing through their own folly and repent. Many others like the Pharaoh remain hard hearted even if their first born were to die.

Now you are saying that humility comes from God, not from inside the person. Clearly Pharoah did not exhibit humility.

 

[fhansen]

Human beings will be judged by their love. By our love we express the image of God-we become accurate expressions of Him as we become united in our wills- attaining our perfection, our holiness, our justification, and, oh yeah, as a side note, fulfilling the commandments. Within the love of God and neighbor is already implied faith and hope, along with any other virtue as well as works, i.e. the expression of that love.

 

[guanophore]

Nothing can happen apart from God’s will. …If humbling is responded with contriteness and humility then one gains Faith. If the response is hardness of heart it ultimately leads to spiritual death after many more falls which are additional chances given to change. The response, whether humble or proud, is entirely up to the person and in his/her hands.

I think this way of saying it is much more useful apologetically. I have not finished reading the posts, but I suspect that this way of framing it resolves the semantic problem.

 

[guanophore]

It is an inspired deduction and the gospel verses that led to this are decribed by me already on another thread. I am unable to explain that it is no addition but mere deduction

I think this explains it rather well.

The scripture suggests they were deceived. It is up to us to ponder and understand how, why.

Yes, I agree. However, you were forwarding your ponderments as if they were on the same level as the Scripture.

As explained above, there is no assumption, only inspired deduction.

With all due respect for your deductions, they cannot rise to the level of inspired Scripture.

grace is the ability to abide ie., keep God’s command

Grace produces the obedience of faith, yes. Grace is God’s unmerited favor. It is offered for all, but not all come to obedience.

Our faith, when mixed with His grace, is what produces the ability to obey.

 

[guanophore]

I think you are making faith and grace elements under our control and by our efforts; when in fact, they are God’s.

Our faith is under our control. It was given to us by way of our creation, and how we use it is our choice. We can place our faith in God (by responding to His grace) in ourselves, money , power, or pretty much anything else. Placing faith in anything other than God is a form of idolatry.

Our faith makes us whole because it is the means by which we connect to His grace. Our faith grows when we exercise it because it is like a muscle, and can develop.

 

[guanophore]

True, that God freely showers His gifts. But it requires love, gratitude, obedience and humility to truly benefit from these gifts. Some call it, living a worthy life. I call it laboring for God’s wage. Is my semantics objectionable?

Many of our separated brethren find them objectionable. This goes back to the rift that was caused by the “selling” of indulgences prior to the Reformation.

The concept is quite theologically sound. The language produces an apologetics nightmare.

Why create misconception and confusion when it can be avoided with a shift of linguistic legerdomain?

 

[gtrenewed]

Yes, I did submit and it is my material

I pondered and researched for years to arrive at this understanding and have reasons to believe that it was inspiration. The word unmerited is used so loosely. Do you believe that Mother Mary was chosen by God without any merit. Her confession of her low estate in the Magnificat, is itself a great merit of unparalled humility. If all blessings are without merit why do we need religion or scriptures or guidance for salvation.
Read Luke 17:5-10. Our Lord reveals that humility is the formula for increasing faith.

As God said to Jeremiah, “before you were formed in your mothers womb I knew you” so Mary was chosen without merit.

We need religion, scriptures, and guidance first to hear the gospel and then how to walk in it. The free blessings, grace, are part of our inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Look, in an earthly kingdom there are the children of the king. Some are better children than others, some understand the kingdom business better but at the end of the day they are still the king’s children.

In Luke that you refer to, I do not get the conclusion you came to. In fact, I see it as a scripture just the opposite. To me this emphasizes that works, while a duty, do not gain us advantage in the economy of the kingdom of heaven. Why? Because God has a planned calling for each of us and has gifted us to accomplish that calling. I think this is the testimony of Paul’s life.

Are we debating or are we jointly searching for “fullness of truth”?

We are searching by debating, hopefully kindly with respect and in the unity of the Spirit.

Please read John’s gospel. He says, Moses merely gave the Law, but Grace came through Jesus. My understanding of this: Jesus demonstrated what it means to fulfil the righteous requirements of the law, and showed us the means to abide in God’s law through love which enables one to abide. Permit me to use this example: In my country there was till recently a law called POTA (Prevention Of Terrorism Act). Mere observing the law would me not allowing terror to happen through vigilance and penal measures. Fulfilling its righteous requirements would mean, spreading love and removing hatred and rooting out evil from human hearts

The best news that the outcasts of Israel heard was the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They could not seem to make it in the Law of Moses with the way the leadership had set it up. But when Jesus spoke and demonstrated the kingdom of heaven they knew they could make it there. Why? It did not depend on their ability but on their desire. If they desired to live in the kingdom, God gave them the grace to do so. This ability to abide as you have phrased it, is freely given to those who desire but is not dependent on how well we do. We can prosper in the kingdom to the point of our calling and this is where humility and gratitude come in - humility to accept our calling and gratitude for the grace given to accomplish our calling.

True, that God freely showers His gifts. But it requires love, gratitude, obedience and humility to truly benefit from these gifts. Some call it, living a worthy life. I call it laboring for God’s wage. Is my semantics objectionable?

In a way, yes, because a worthy life is ambiguous. Jesus, from His perspective, should be the one determining if a life is well done. In an earthly, goal oriented economy, success comes from effort and ingenuity and is rewarded to few. In the heavenly, relationship oriented economy, love of God and man is prized. While action, effort, is required on our part, it is not to get a wage but is motivated as a return to the love God first showed us.

 

[gtrenewed]

No, he is pointing out that they ARE works. These are the ergos hagios, the good works, created through us by grace, that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. If it were not up to us to exercise gratitude and humilty, then God would not instruct us to do so.

It is a good thing this forum has you to tell each of us what the other is saying

While I understood what he said, I disagree. Gratitude and humility ARE NOT works but a state of being in a relationship.

You are both saying the same thing. When we say “merit” we are talking about yielding our wills to the Truth of the gospel from which we receive His gifts. In this sense, being humble does bring the reward of faith. It is our responsibiltiy to cling to that vine, from which these gifts emanate.

Faith is required prior to humility being present. Again, humility is a state of being and grace brings us to faith. As we desire the kingdom of heaven and respond to grace, fruit of the Spirit become evident.

 

[gtrenewed]

Human beings will be judged by their love. By our love we express the image of God-we become accurate expressions of Him as we become united in our wills- attaining our perfection, our holiness, our justification, and, oh yeah, as a side note, fulfilling the commandments. Within the love of God and neighbor is already implied faith and hope, along with any other virtue as well as works, i.e. the expression of that love.

Quite profound but not the gospel of hope.

Our love can never accurately express God for it is tainted by the flesh. Jesus accurately expressed God’s love and that is why outcasts found hope in Him.

Our justification comes by grace through faith and that not of ourselves so no one may boast.

I can’t tell if you came up with that on your own or are repeating someone else but it is scary to someone who does not know what love is. Minister to the down and out, if you want to give them hope, tell them the gospel, that by grace through faith in Jesus we can be in right standing with God. To those who have failed at life and love, it is comforting to know that they do not have to be perfect but that by being in Jesus who is perfect they can stand before God.

From that rightstanding, can one learn of his calling and how to walk in love by grace.

 

[gtrenewed]

Many of our separated brethren find them objectionable. This goes back to the rift that was caused by the “selling” of indulgences prior to the Reformation.

Why is the word selling in quotes? Are you denying this took place?

 

[gtrenewed]

Our faith is under our control. It was given to us by way of our creation, and how we use it is our choice. We can place our faith in God (by responding to His grace) in ourselves, money , power, or pretty much anything else. Placing faith in anything other than God is a form of idolatry.

Our faith makes us whole because it is the means by which we connect to His grace. Our faith grows when we exercise it because it is like a muscle, and can develop.

Our wills are under our control but not faith. Faith is a free gift.

Scripture says that when faith came - that is when Jesus came. God put in us the knowledge of Him but not faith. To say idolatry is faith is incorrect. Faith is only directed towards God. We can have belief or trust in something else but it is not faith.

Faith is like a muscle? Jesus said of several non-Jews that their faith was great or so great a faith was not found in Israel! They put action to what they saw and heard of Jesus, one could say they exercised their faith but this is not the same as muscle exercise.

There is the measure of faith given to us and we grow in maturity which better enables us to use our faith. Remember what can remove a mountain?

 

[fhansen]

Quite profound but not the gospel of hope.

Our love can never accurately express God for it is tainted by the flesh. Jesus accurately expressed God’s love and that is why outcasts found hope in Him.

Our justification comes by grace through faith and that not of ourselves so no one may boast.

I can’t tell if you came up with that on your own or are repeating someone else but it is scary to someone who does not know what love is. Minister to the down and out, if you want to give them hope, tell them the gospel, that by grace through faith in Jesus we can be in right standing with God. To those who have failed at life and love, it is comforting to know that they do not have to be perfect but that by being in Jesus who is perfect they can stand before God.

From that rightstanding, can one learn of his calling and how to walk in love by grace.

For those who’ve failed at life and love, it’s comforting-it’s great news-that God can perfect them after all-into the beings He always intended them to be.

 

[pablope]

Faith alone is a contradiction in terms…

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” - James 2.20.

I find it hard to believe anyone could comprehend faith “alone”; it would be like comprehending morality without moral deeds; or goodness without good actions.

Hi, Returning to Rome…

I suggest you go to the Coming Home Network led by Marcus Grodi…in the site, under Library, you can find Journals from former Protestants who converted, especially protestant ministers, writing about why Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura gave then trouble. You will find a variety of writings and conversion stories.

 

[Pitcharan]

This does not answer the question, Pitch. How humble is humble enough? And how do you account for those who are knocked down by God’s grace in spite of being arrogant and proud?

The apparent pride and/or arrogance we see in people could actually be ignorance rather than pride as in the case of Paul (Saul). He himself testified that he was knocked down by grace because he had acted in ignorance and unbelief. Pride is something altogether different according to my understanding. It is worship of one’s own self which gradually transforms into worship of Evil /Satan through deception

Now you are saying that humility comes from God, not from inside the person. Clearly Pharoah did not exhibit humility.

I am saying that God will humble the proud meaning they will be humiliated to break their pride. This is done to enable the proud person to realise his/her folly and become contrite and humble. Pharoah was shown eleven signs (symbolically it means that Pharoah given a long rope). The eleventh or last opportunity was when Pharoah’s and all Egypt’s first-born were struck. Pharoah slightly relented only to regain hardness of heart and hotly pursued the Israelites to be destroyed in the middle of the Red sea

 

[Pitcharan]

In Luke that you refer to, I do not get the conclusion you came to. In fact, I see it as a scripture just the opposite. To me this emphasizes that works, while a duty, do not gain us advantage in the economy of the kingdom of heaven. Why? Because God has a planned calling for each of us and has gifted us to accomplish that calling. I think this is the testimony of Paul’s life.

I have explained on a another thread, Luke 17:5-10 as I understood it. Do take a look: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7151075&postcount=59

We are searching by debating, hopefully kindly with respect and in the unity of the Spirit.

Certainly with love, kindness, respect and unity of spirit

The best news that the outcasts of Israel heard was the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They could not seem to make it in the Law of Moses with the way the leadership had set it up. But when Jesus spoke and demonstrated the kingdom of heaven they knew they could make it there. Why? It did not depend on their ability but on their desire. If they desired to live in the kingdom, God gave them the grace to do so. This ability to abide as you have phrased it, is** freely given to those who desire **but is not dependent on how well we do. We can prosper in the kingdom to the point of our calling and this is where humility and gratitude come in - humility to accept our calling and gratitude for the grace given to accomplish our calling.

I concur; only our expression’s vary. Desire to abide and Love for God’s law, are identical.

In a way, yes, because a worthy life is ambiguous. Jesus, from His perspective, should be the one determining if a life is well done. In an earthly, goal oriented economy, success comes from effort and ingenuity and is rewarded to few. In the heavenly, relationship oriented economy, love of God and man is prized. While action, effort, is required on our part, it is not to get a wage but is motivated as a return to the love God first showed us.

From the view point of worldy success, you are right. I looked at wage as thing of joy to the humble labourer.