Thoughts on "faith alone" - I welcome your responses

[ReturningToRome]

Are my thoughts here faithful to Catholic teaching? I welcome your response. Thanks!

The notion that Jesus accomplished everything for our salvation and nothing is required of us except faith is incomplete. It communicates, I’m sure unintentionally, that it’s optional to live a Christian life.
But then that of course can’t be true, so to motivate us to do the right thing, since you can’t say “you must,” or “God expects it,” and certainly not “this is the way of salvation,” we hear (possibly guilt producing) motivators like: “God loved you so much, so in gratitude you should love him back” always with the proviso “not that we’re earning anything from God.” The idea is, we don’t HAVE to, we just should – we should WANT to. Now there is truth in all these ideas – we should be grateful, we should love God and our neighbor, and we DON’T earn anything from God. But there’s a disconnect: God has done it all - see you in heaven. So I have no part in it except to believe, and that’s a gift so I really have no part at all.
That makes no sense to me, and I don’t think scripture supports it, and most Christians don’t live their lives that way. It’s akin to the Deist idea that God sets the world in motion, then leaves us on our own. God acted in the past, and if I have faith I receive all that is promised. End of story. So my life on earth is essentially not very important. But then of course, reason tells us that can’t be true. And most Christians would agree that how you live your life IS important. We certainly see in our own life and in the lives of others the bad effects when we wade into sin. But somehow this gets relegated to a category of natural consequences, or even discipline or punishment from God when we push beyond His tolerance. But no discussion of how this affects our salvation since our actions have nothing to do with our salvation. (Although Lutherans and perhaps others will acknowledge that sin becomes a salvation issue if you push it so far that you no longer have faith - a prerequisite for salvation.) It leads to believing we can separate God’s activity from ours, as though our daily actions have no impact on God’s eternal actions. This I think is an artificial dividing up of Scripture for the sake of sola fide, the doctrine of faith alone. And like I said, we really don’t live that way. We try to do the right thing and to not sin, and when we do sin we are sorry and confess it and repent. But do we strive for holiness? Where is the motivation for that if God has done it all? It’s not really necessary – right? Is it even possible to grow in holiness? Yes, it is necessary; it is God’s work in us and God’s plan in saving us, all by God’s grace, but not without our effort and cooperation. All glory goes to God, but we are active participants. It’s the way of salvation and the pathway to heaven.

 

[JohnDamian]

Faith alone is a contradiction in terms…

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” - James 2.20.

I find it hard to believe anyone could comprehend faith “alone”; it would be like comprehending morality without moral deeds; or goodness without good actions.

 

[Scoobyshme]

It would probably be better to say we are saved by Grace Alone (Sola Gratia). We cannot have faith except by the grace of God. Saving faith necessarily includes good works, as evidenced by Jesus’ description of Judgement Day in Matt. 25 where He separates the “sheep” (those going to heaven) from the “goats” (those going to hell) solely based on good works of faith (“I was hungry and you gave Me to eat…”). And, we cannot do works of faith without God’s grace.

We don’t disagree that we are saved by faith. We just disagree on the “alone” part that Martin Luther tried to promote.

 

[SecretBeliever]

Hi RtR,

Thanks for a very thoughtful post as you leave Lutheranism. I too have those same thoughts albeit not as articulate as you! I’ve been attending a Lutheran church (WELS) although I was a confirmed Catholic before (long story) and very soon after attending I started thinking about the same thing. The pastor teaches that people only have free will to deny the Holy Spirit. That we don’t have free will to Agree with the Holy Spirit; that we’re led by the Holy Spirit. That just never made any sense to me at all, because everything has two sides; we live in a world of duality and I could even surmise (I could be wrong) that God made it that way. Look at good and evil. How could everything else not have two sides, including free will?

What I mean to say is, faith alone is one side of the coin. There has to be good works as well. That doesn’t mean that we can take credit for them (it is totally by agreeing with God to do them). And where does mankind get its idea of having to do right vs. wrong (i.e., the “requirement” for good works, religiously) in the worldly legal sense if not from God Himself?

Thanks again for such a compelling post. I’ve just thought of a way to point out to my husband (never mind, long story) why faith alone is not valid. He’s the one who struggled with “the transcendence of dualism” as Buddhism maintains and nearly went crazy trying to figure out that concept.

Christine

P.S. if what I’m trying to say contradicts Catholic teaching by all means please someone correct me. It’s just my understanding vs the faith alone viewpoint.

 

[ReturningToRome]

Thanks for your responses! Christine, I haven’t left yet, but I intend to. I’m trying to clarify my thoughts and understand Catholicism as best I can. My wife and I have been Lutheran nearly all our married life, and raised our children that way. I’m trying to have religious conversations with my wife because I would love for us to be of one mind, but it’s a struggle for us. I’m also in music ministry in a Lutheran church and have determined I can’t keep doing that. And my daughter is married to a Lutheran pastor. So lots of changes and conversations down the road, and I need to be thoroughly convinced and able to communicate. Thanks for the thought about lack of free will. I’ve thought - if we’re saved by faith alone, and faith is a gift, and you cannot choose God, then why isn’t everyone saved? God would simply give the gift of faith to everyone and that would be that - right? BTW, I grew up Catholic, left in my late teens.

John, hope you enjoyed the pope’s visit to England!

John

 

[Nine_Two]

Faith alone is a contradiction in terms…

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” - James 2.20.

I find it hard to believe anyone could comprehend faith “alone”; it would be like comprehending morality without moral deeds; or goodness without good actions.

The Augsburg Confession (Lutheran) states that if one has faith, it will make itself visibly manifest through works, so when a Lutheran says “Faith alone”, they believe (or at least their churches believe) that works will come about through that. They are simply denying the ideas that good works on their own can get you into heaven (which has also been condemned by the Catholic Church) or that works can make up for sin (this second view was taken by the Council of Trent).

 

[ReturningToRome]

The Augsburg Confession (Lutheran) states that if one has faith, it will make itself visibly manifest through works, so when a Lutheran says “Faith alone”, they believe (or at least their churches believe) that works will come about through that. They are simply denying the ideas that good works on their own can get you into heaven (which has also been condemned by the Catholic Church) or that works can make up for sin (this second view was taken by the Council of Trent).

Thank you, John. The more common ground we have the better. I will check out the Council of Trent.

 

[JonNC]

=ReturningToRome;7071960]Are my thoughts here faithful to Catholic teaching? I welcome your response. Thanks!

Hi Returning,
I will let Catholics answer your question about faithfulness to Catholic teaching. Instead, please allow me to respond to the following, while adding that I am certain that your return to Catholicism will bless you.

The notion that Jesus accomplished everything for our salvation and nothing is required of us except faith is incomplete. It communicates, I’m sure unintentionally, that it’s optional to live a Christian life.

this is contrary to Lutheran teaching. If one reads the Lutheran confessions, no such communication is made. Instead it communicates that we are unable to come to justification by our own works, that justification is monergistic, that we are brought to faith by the Holy Spirit, through Baptism and the hearing of the word.

But then that of course can’t be true, so to motivate us to do the right thing, since you can’t say “you must,” or “God expects it,” and certainly not “this is the way of salvation,” we hear (possibly guilt producing) motivators like: “God loved you so much, so in gratitude you should love him back” always with the proviso “not that we’re earning anything from God.” The idea is, we don’t HAVE to, we just should – we should WANT to. Now there is truth in all these ideas – we should be grateful, we should love God and our neighbor, and we DON’T earn anything from God. But there’s a disconnect: God has done it all - see you in heaven. So I have no part in it except to believe, and that’s a gift so I really have no part at all.

Let’s see how the Confessions respond to the idea that one can’t say “you must”:

1. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

9] 4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.

10] 5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:14.

11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, **this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins. **

Bound to do good works is more than just “certain to”, it is also “required to”. It is an obligation based on Christ’s command. It is the new obedience, spoken of in other parts of the confessions. Disobedience to the commands of Christ is sin, and repeated, unrepented sin drives out the Holy Spirit, making faith a dead faith, which cannot save.
As the last paragraph says, it is not a choice of the regenerate forbear doing good works.

That makes no sense to me, and I don’t think scripture supports it, and most Christians don’t live their lives that way. It’s akin to the Deist idea that God sets the world in motion, then leaves us on our own. God acted in the past, and if I have faith I receive all that is promised. End of story. So my life on earth is essentially not very important. But then of course, reason tells us that can’t be true. And most Christians would agree that how you live your life IS important. We certainly see in our own life and in the lives of others the bad effects when we wade into sin. But somehow this gets relegated to a category of natural consequences, or even discipline or punishment from God when we push beyond His tolerance. But no discussion of how this affects our salvation since our actions have nothing to do with our salvation. (Although Lutherans and perhaps others will acknowledge that sin becomes a salvation issue if you push it so far that you no longer have faith - a prerequisite for salvation.) It leads to believing we can separate God’s activity from ours, as though our daily actions have no impact on God’s eternal actions. This I think is an artificial dividing up of Scripture for the sake of sola fide, the doctrine of faith alone

.
It doesn’t make sense to you because it is not true, and a simple reading of the confessions makes that clear.
The “separating” you speak of is the distinction between what God does, and what we do. Bringing us to justification is monergistic - the movement of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Sanctification, however, must follow justification, and includes our response and participation in our faith, conforming our ways to His ways.

And like I said, we really don’t live that way. We try to do the right thing and to not sin, and when we do sin we are sorry and confess it and repent. But do we strive for holiness? Where is the motivation for that if God has done it all? It’s not really necessary – right? Is it even possible to grow in holiness? Yes, it is necessary; it is God’s work in us and God’s plan in saving us, all by God’s grace, but not without our effort and cooperation. All glory goes to God, but we are active participants. It’s the way of salvation and the pathway to heaven.

I hope I have answered your question. With all respect, it sounds to me like you were poorly catechized, not an unusual situation, and Catholics here complain about that, too.
Again, I encourage you to move in the direction the Spirit calls you.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Faith alone is a contradiction in terms…

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” - James 2.20.

I find it hard to believe anyone could comprehend faith “alone”; it would be like comprehending morality without moral deeds; or goodness without good actions.

Hi John,
If one believes that sola fide means what you say here, they do not understand sola fide.
Let me ask this: how does a Catholic believe one comes to initial justification?

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification says:

“15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.”

How do you see it?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

The Augsburg Confession (Lutheran) states that if one has faith, it will make itself visibly manifest through works, so when a Lutheran says “Faith alone”, they believe (or at least their churches believe) that works will come about through that. They are simply denying the ideas that good works on their own can get you into heaven (which has also been condemned by the Catholic Church) or that works can make up for sin (this second view was taken by the Council of Trent).

You are exactly right! It is a recogntion that justification is the work of the Triune God. It in no way denied the necessity of obedience to Christ’s commands to care for the least of His children.

Jon

 

[Nine_Two]

Thank you, John. The more common ground we have the better. I will check out the Council of Trent.

I’m not John.

It was in Session 6, canon 24 that Trent made its pronouncement,

“If anyone says that justice once received is neither preserved nor increased in the sight of God by good works, but that the works themselves are no more than the effects and signs of the justification obtained, and not also a cause of its increase: let him be anathema.”

 

[ReturningToRome]

Hi Returning,
I will let Catholics answer your question about faithfulness to Catholic teaching. Instead, please allow me to respond to the following, while adding that I am certain that your return to Catholicism will bless you.

this is contrary to Lutheran teaching. If one reads the Lutheran confessions, no such communication is made. Instead it communicates that we are unable to come to justification by our own works, that justification is monergistic, that we are brought to faith by the Holy Spirit, through Baptism and the hearing of the word.

Let’s see how the Confessions respond to the idea that one can’t say “you must”:

Bound to do good works is more than just “certain to”, it is also “required to”. It is an obligation based on Christ’s command. It is the new obedience, spoken of in other parts of the confessions. Disobedience to the commands of Christ is sin, and repeated, unrepented sin drives out the Holy Spirit, making faith a dead faith, which cannot save.
As the last paragraph says, it is not a choice of the regenerate forbear doing good works.

.
It doesn’t make sense to you because it is not true, and a simple reading of the confessions makes that clear.
The “separating” you speak of is the distinction between what God does, and what we do. Bringing us to justification is monergistic - the movement of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Sanctification, however, must follow justification, and includes our response and participation in our faith, conforming our ways to His ways.

I hope I have answered your question. With all respect, it sounds to me like you were poorly catechized, not an unusual situation, and Catholics here complain about that, too.
Again, I encourage you to move in the direction the Spirit calls you.

Jon

Dear Jon,
Thanks for responding. It is good to get some Lutheran feedback on this. I’m not a theologian, but I think I had fairly good catechesis. I expressed myself more in practical “so what” terms rather than doctrinal. And I suppose I was exaggerating things. I think I understand fairly well the Lutheran doctrines of Justification and Sanctification, which you highlight from the confessions. They just seem to me to be an artificial separating out of God’s way of salvation that I don’t see reflected in the gospels or the letters. It is all by God’s grace, and our cooperation is required, and God does intend to make us holy people fit for the kingdom of heaven. So if the end result is the same, that’s good. I need to understand better how the Catholic church expresses this. I will reread James Aiken’s book “The Salvation Controversy” and check out the Catholic Catechism.

 

[ReturningToRome]

I’m not John.

It was in Session 6, canon 24 that Trent made its pronouncement,

“If anyone says that justice once received is neither preserved nor increased in the sight of God by good works, but that the works themselves are no more than the effects and signs of the justification obtained, and not also a cause of its increase: let him be anathema.”

Sorry 929 Do I understand this correctly to mean that good works preserve and increase justification, and are not merely the results or proofs that one has been made just?

 

[ReturningToRome]

Sorry 929 Do I understand this correctly to mean that good works preserve and increase justification, and are not merely the results or proofs that one has been made just?

If so, this would mean our good works do have an effect on our justification.

 

[MarianD]

*For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

• • Matthew 16:27

 

[Nine_Two]

If so, this would mean our good works do have an effect on our justification.

Yes, that is (or at least was) the possition of Rome.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Are my thoughts here faithful to Catholic teaching? I welcome your response. Thanks

!

This may shock you coming from a Catholic, but I agree with Martin Luther’s statement of “Sola fide” not his doctrine in “Sola fide”.

Faith is what draws the catechumen to Christ Jesus. This faith is what is instrumental in being saved. In other words Only Faith can allow one to enter into the kingdom of God. This faith can be witnessed by one professing this faith or an infant entering the kingdom of God on the profession of faith by his/her parents and god parents.

Faith only allows one to enter into the saving waters of baptism. This faith only that I speak of stands outside of the saving grace in the sacraments that awaits this faith only reciepient, to be graced with mercy and God’s Love into salvation of the soul.

From the baptismal waters that infuses grace and regenerates the soul in Christ Jesus who by the way is the only one who can save you, saves this faith only reciepient who had nothing else for his salvation but “faith only”. From this faith only which is smaller than any mustard seed is able to enter into the Kingdom of God through baptism which saves you now.

Now your commentary relates to the Catholic Church’s teaching for those who have already entered into the kingdom of God who “work out their salvation with fear and trembling”. These new (baptised) born (anothen) again Christians from the baptismal waters are now children of the living God and by God’s grace, possess the faith the size of a mustard seed which can move mountains.

Iam making the distinction between those who are being saved by entering into the kingdom of God, who can never have nothing to attain this salvation except “faith alone” is all one has before Christ can save this faith only person through his sacrament of baptism and those (children of God) who have already entered the kingdom of God who work out their salvation with “faith and works”.

Faith only enters one into God’s saving grace, Faith and works are what the Children of God already in the kingdom of God use to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.

Your commentary is very insightful and does not appear to conflict with Catholic Apostolic teaching.

Peace be with you and God bless you on your journey

 

[JonNC]

!

 

[JonNC]

Dear Jon,
Thanks for responding. It is good to get some Lutheran feedback on this. I’m not a theologian, but I think I had fairly good catechesis. I expressed myself more in practical “so what” terms rather than doctrinal. And I suppose I was exaggerating things. I think I understand fairly well the Lutheran doctrines of Justification and Sanctification, which you highlight from the confessions. They just seem to me to be an artificial separating out of God’s way of salvation that I don’t see reflected in the gospels or the letters. It is all by God’s grace, and our cooperation is required, and God does intend to make us holy people fit for the kingdom of heaven. So if the end result is the same, that’s good. I need to understand better how the Catholic church expresses this. I will reread James Aiken’s book “The Salvation Controversy” and check out the Catholic Catechism.

You might be interested in Akin’s essay on Faith Alone:
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm

I look at our view of justification / sanctification not as a separating out, but merely a distinction between what God does, and what we do.

Blessings in your journey,
Jon

 

[Third_Day]

If so, this would mean our good works do have an effect on our justification.

God rewards those who accept His grace with more grace when we do the works He has prepared for us. This increase of God’s grace will help us to persevere in faith to the end so in that sense our good works ( done by the grace of God) do have an effect on our justification and sanctification We can grow in grace

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 3:18
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit

We need to cooperate with God’s will

2 Cor. 6:1
Working together with him, then, we also urge you not to accept the grace of God in vain

It is God’ will is that we be sanctified

1 Thess.4:3-8 For this is the will of God, your sanctification that you abstain from immorality…for God has not called us for uncleanness but in holiness. Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

We wil be rewarded in heaven for our good works. Our first reward is eternal life.

Romans 2:8:
”To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Gal 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Besides eternal life God will rewards those who do works of grace with heavenly rewards "Eye has not seen ear has not heard nor the heart of man conceived what God has prepared for those who love him " 1 Cor.l 2:9

“So that you alms may be in secret and your Father who sees in secret will reward you…when you pray your Father will reward you…when you fast your Father will reward you. Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth…but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven.” Matt. 6:1-21

1 Cor. 3:8-9:
The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers.

The Catholic Sacraments are means of an increase in grace. In Baptism and the sacrament of Confession we receive sanctifying grace and in the sacrament of the Eucharist we receive an increase of grace.

Baltimore Cathechism: The Principal Effect of the Sacraments: Grace
10 Q. What is grace?
A. Grace is an inward and supernatural gift given to us without any merit of our own, but through the merits of Jesus Christ in order to gain eternal life.
11 Q. How is grace distinguished?
A. Grace is divided into sanctifying grace, which is also called habitual grace, and actual grace.
12 Q. What is sanctifying grace?
A. Sanctifying grace is a supernatural gift inherent in our soul, and rendering us just, adopted children of God and heirs to Paradise.
13 Q. How many kinds of sanctifying grace are there?
A. Sanctifying grace is of two kinds: first grace and second grace.
14 Q. What is first grace?
A. First grace is that by means of which one passes from the state of mortal sin to the state of justice.
15 Q. And what is second grace?
A. Second grace is an increase of first grace.
18 Q. By the aid of our own powers alone can we do anything available to life eternal?
A. Without the help of the grace of God, and by our own powers alone, we cannot do anything helpful to life everlasting.
19 Q. How is grace given us by God?
A. Grace is given us by God chiefly through the sacraments.
20 Q. Do the sacraments confer any other grace besides sanctifying grace?
A. Besides sanctifying grace the sacraments also confer sacramental grace.
21 Q. What is sacramental grace?
24 Q. What sacraments confer first sanctifying grace?
A. The sacraments which confer first sanctifying grace, and render us friends of God, are two: Baptism and Penance.
25 Q. How are these two sacraments called on that account?
A. These two sacraments, Baptism and Penance, are on that account called sacraments of the dead, because they are instituted chiefly to restore to the life of grace the soul dead by sin.
26 Q. Which are the sacraments that increase grace in those who already possess it?
A. The sacraments which increase grace in those who already possess it are the other five: Confirmation, Eucharist, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders and Matrimony, all of which confer second grace.
27 Q. On this account how are they called?
A. These five sacraments — Confirmation, Eucharist, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders and Matrimony — are on that account called sacraments of the living, because those who receive them must be free from mortal sin, that is, already alive through sanctifying grace.
28 Q. What sin does he commit who, conscious that he is not in a state of grace, receives one of the sacraments of the living?
A. He who conscious that he is not in a state of grace, receives one of the sacraments of the living, commits a serious sacrilege.
29 Q. What sacraments are most necessary for salvation?
A. The sacraments most necessary to salvation are two: Baptism and Penance. Baptism is necessary to all, and Penance is necessary to all who have sinned mortally after Baptism.
30 Q. What is the greatest of all the sacraments?
A. The greatest of all the sacraments is the Eucharist, because it contains not only grace, but also Jesus Christ the Author of Grace and of the sacraments