C
Clairvaux
Guest
Can anyone share his or her thoughts about the Methodist preacher JOHN WESLEY ?
- Status
B
Barbkw
Guest
These Journey Home programs may be of help to you.
B
Bluegoat
Guest
He wrote some very good hymns I believe.
C
Clairvaux
Guest
It is addressed to Wesley’s wayward brother-in-law, Westley Hall.
December 30, 1745.
DEAR BROTHER,—Now you act the part of a friend. It has long been our desire, that, you would speak freely. And we will do the same. What we know not yet, may God reveal to us!
You think, First, that, we undertake to defend some things, which are not defensible by the Word of God. You instance three: on each of which we will explain ourselves as clearly as we can.
December 30, 1745.
DEAR BROTHER,—Now you act the part of a friend. It has long been our desire, that, you would speak freely. And we will do the same. What we know not yet, may God reveal to us!
You think, First, that, we undertake to defend some things, which are not defensible by the Word of God. You instance three: on each of which we will explain ourselves as clearly as we can.
- ‘That, the validity of our ministry depends on a succession supposed to be from the Apostles, and a commission derived from the Pope of Rome, and his successors or dependents.’
- ‘That, there is an outward Priesthood, and consequently an outward Sacrifice, ordained and offered by the Bishop of Rome, and his successors or dependents, in the Church of England, as vicars and vicegerents of Christ.’
- ‘That, this Papal Hierarchy and Prelacy, which still continues in the Church of England, is of Apostolical Institution, and authorized thereby; though not by the written Word.’
M
mark_a
Guest
How 'bout a link?
G
GKC
Guest
Try this:
wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1745/
About 3/4 down the page. Other interesting stuff there, too.
Wesley died, as he lived, a priest of the CoE.
GKC
C
Clairvaux
Guest
C
Clairvaux
Guest
socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/john-wesleys-ecumenical-letter-to.html
John Wesley, the great English evangelist and founder of Methodism, wrote a remarkable open letter, dated July 18, 1749, which was published in Dublin, in the context of great inter-faith bitterness. His Letter to a Roman Catholic reads in part as follows:
Brotherly love is utterly destroyed and each side, looking on the other as monsters, gives way to anger, hatred, malice, to every unkind affection . . . Can nothing be done, even allowing us on both sides to retain our own opinions, for the softening our hearts towards one another, the giving a check to this flood of unkindness? . . . Be our opinions right or be they wrong, these tempers are undeniably wrong . . .
I think you deserve the tenderest regard I can show . . . How much more, if you are a person fearing God (as without question many of you are) . . .
Let us resolve, first, not to hurt one another, to do nothing unkind or unfriendly to each other . . . Let us resolve, secondly, God being our helper, to speak nothing harsh or unkind of each other . . . to say all the good we can, both of and to one another . . . Let us, thirdly, resolve to harbour no unkind thought, no unfriendly temper towards each other . . . Let us, fourthly, endeavor to help each other on in whatever we are agreed leads to the Kingdom. So far as we can, let us always rejoice to strengthen each other’s hands in God.
John Wesley, the great English evangelist and founder of Methodism, wrote a remarkable open letter, dated July 18, 1749, which was published in Dublin, in the context of great inter-faith bitterness. His Letter to a Roman Catholic reads in part as follows:
Brotherly love is utterly destroyed and each side, looking on the other as monsters, gives way to anger, hatred, malice, to every unkind affection . . . Can nothing be done, even allowing us on both sides to retain our own opinions, for the softening our hearts towards one another, the giving a check to this flood of unkindness? . . . Be our opinions right or be they wrong, these tempers are undeniably wrong . . .
I think you deserve the tenderest regard I can show . . . How much more, if you are a person fearing God (as without question many of you are) . . .
Let us resolve, first, not to hurt one another, to do nothing unkind or unfriendly to each other . . . Let us resolve, secondly, God being our helper, to speak nothing harsh or unkind of each other . . . to say all the good we can, both of and to one another . . . Let us, thirdly, resolve to harbour no unkind thought, no unfriendly temper towards each other . . . Let us, fourthly, endeavor to help each other on in whatever we are agreed leads to the Kingdom. So far as we can, let us always rejoice to strengthen each other’s hands in God.
C
Clairvaux
Guest
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR PROMOTING CHRISTIAN UNITY
CELEBRATION OF THE 300th ANNIVERSARY
OF THE BIRTH OF JOHN WESLEY
HOMILY OF CARDINAL WALTER KASPER
Ponte Sant’Angelo Methodist Church, Rome
22 June 2003
It is a great pleasure to be with you this morning as you join with Methodist congregations throughout the world in celebrating the 300th anniversary of John Wesley. Your invitation to preach on this occasion is a generous ecumenical gesture for which I am most grateful, and I would like to extend my thanks in particular to your pastor, Rev Pieter Bouman, and to all of you, for the warm welcome. It is also my pleasure and privilege this morning to bring you greetings and the blessing of Pope John Paul II. As you know, the longing to recover full communion among all Christians is a desire he carries deeply in his heart.
When twenty years ago my predecessor at the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, Cardinal Willebrands, gave an address on the occasion of the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther’s birth, he quoted Saint Augustine on the complexity of the human person: “Grande profundum est ipse homo” (the human person is a vast depth). Indeed each human being is a great mystery, created and sustained by God, in a relationship with God the depths of which we cannot understand.
John Wesley was a complex figure, and his relationship with and view of the Catholic Church was complex. He was a priest of the Church of England, though decisions at the end of his life anticipated the separation of Methodism from Anglicanism. Methodist-Catholic relations today have been influenced by the fact that there is no history of formal separation between us, as Methodism grew out of the Anglican tradition; hence we have no difficult memories of separating. While John Wesley understood the Roman Catholic Church to be a part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, and acknowledged that Roman Catholics could be saved through faith, his writings and sermons contain certain hostile references to ‘popery’ and ‘the errors of the Church of Rome’, which hopefully he would phrase differently if he were alive today. His commentary on the Book of Revelation reflects a rather ungracious view of the Papacy; so much so that it is somewhat daring of you to invite me here today, and perhaps equally daring of me to accept! The Catholic response to Wesley and early Methodists was, however, no better, and happily we have ceased to blame each other.
Wesley’s Letter to a Roman Catholic, written during the anti-Methodist riots in Cork in 1749, was something of an exception to all of this. Indeed it has been referred to as an ecumenical classic. In a plea for greater understanding, Wesley outlines what he sees as the essential beliefs of “true, primitive Christianity”, wherein most of what is said could be easily embraced by the Catholic Church. He invites Methodists and Catholics “to help each other on in whatever we are agreed leads to the Kingdom”, and proposes that “if we cannot as yet think alike in all things, at least we may love alike”, and finally, expresses his hope that they will meet in heaven.
A Catholic reflection on John Wesley needs to grapple with his ambivalent understanding of the Catholic Church, but cannot stop there; we must also seek a wider view, to see what dynamized Wesley’s ministry, to see the evangelical passion which gave direction to his life and the movement he started. Furthermore, we do so today in a new context, engaging in a reassessment of John Wesley’s life and ministry from a very different starting point. Following upon the positive experience and reports of Methodist observers at the Second Vatican Council, a dialogue was initiated between the member churches of the World Methodist Council and the Catholic Church. Our 36 years of dialogue have already borne much fruit. A genuine friendship has emerged between us, not only on the level of the official dialogue, but in many local contexts as well, where Methodists and Catholics see themselves as ecumenical partners who feel an obligation to take their relationship further and to offer common witness. The hostility has passed, and we have come to recognize each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.
At least in part, we now look to John Wesley through eyes educated by our dialogue, and by our experience of Methodists today. A recent study of John Wesley notes that he left a lasting imprint on Methodism in much the same way as Ignatius of Loyola did on future Jesuits. In like manner, just as you continue to turn to the ministry of John Wesley for inspiration and guidance, we can look to see and find in him the evangelical zeal, the pursuit of holiness, the concern for the poor, the virtues and goodness which we have come to know and respect in you. For all of this, we can all afford to be profoundly grateful.
CELEBRATION OF THE 300th ANNIVERSARY
OF THE BIRTH OF JOHN WESLEY
HOMILY OF CARDINAL WALTER KASPER
Ponte Sant’Angelo Methodist Church, Rome
22 June 2003
It is a great pleasure to be with you this morning as you join with Methodist congregations throughout the world in celebrating the 300th anniversary of John Wesley. Your invitation to preach on this occasion is a generous ecumenical gesture for which I am most grateful, and I would like to extend my thanks in particular to your pastor, Rev Pieter Bouman, and to all of you, for the warm welcome. It is also my pleasure and privilege this morning to bring you greetings and the blessing of Pope John Paul II. As you know, the longing to recover full communion among all Christians is a desire he carries deeply in his heart.
When twenty years ago my predecessor at the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, Cardinal Willebrands, gave an address on the occasion of the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther’s birth, he quoted Saint Augustine on the complexity of the human person: “Grande profundum est ipse homo” (the human person is a vast depth). Indeed each human being is a great mystery, created and sustained by God, in a relationship with God the depths of which we cannot understand.
John Wesley was a complex figure, and his relationship with and view of the Catholic Church was complex. He was a priest of the Church of England, though decisions at the end of his life anticipated the separation of Methodism from Anglicanism. Methodist-Catholic relations today have been influenced by the fact that there is no history of formal separation between us, as Methodism grew out of the Anglican tradition; hence we have no difficult memories of separating. While John Wesley understood the Roman Catholic Church to be a part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, and acknowledged that Roman Catholics could be saved through faith, his writings and sermons contain certain hostile references to ‘popery’ and ‘the errors of the Church of Rome’, which hopefully he would phrase differently if he were alive today. His commentary on the Book of Revelation reflects a rather ungracious view of the Papacy; so much so that it is somewhat daring of you to invite me here today, and perhaps equally daring of me to accept! The Catholic response to Wesley and early Methodists was, however, no better, and happily we have ceased to blame each other.
Wesley’s Letter to a Roman Catholic, written during the anti-Methodist riots in Cork in 1749, was something of an exception to all of this. Indeed it has been referred to as an ecumenical classic. In a plea for greater understanding, Wesley outlines what he sees as the essential beliefs of “true, primitive Christianity”, wherein most of what is said could be easily embraced by the Catholic Church. He invites Methodists and Catholics “to help each other on in whatever we are agreed leads to the Kingdom”, and proposes that “if we cannot as yet think alike in all things, at least we may love alike”, and finally, expresses his hope that they will meet in heaven.
A Catholic reflection on John Wesley needs to grapple with his ambivalent understanding of the Catholic Church, but cannot stop there; we must also seek a wider view, to see what dynamized Wesley’s ministry, to see the evangelical passion which gave direction to his life and the movement he started. Furthermore, we do so today in a new context, engaging in a reassessment of John Wesley’s life and ministry from a very different starting point. Following upon the positive experience and reports of Methodist observers at the Second Vatican Council, a dialogue was initiated between the member churches of the World Methodist Council and the Catholic Church. Our 36 years of dialogue have already borne much fruit. A genuine friendship has emerged between us, not only on the level of the official dialogue, but in many local contexts as well, where Methodists and Catholics see themselves as ecumenical partners who feel an obligation to take their relationship further and to offer common witness. The hostility has passed, and we have come to recognize each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.
At least in part, we now look to John Wesley through eyes educated by our dialogue, and by our experience of Methodists today. A recent study of John Wesley notes that he left a lasting imprint on Methodism in much the same way as Ignatius of Loyola did on future Jesuits. In like manner, just as you continue to turn to the ministry of John Wesley for inspiration and guidance, we can look to see and find in him the evangelical zeal, the pursuit of holiness, the concern for the poor, the virtues and goodness which we have come to know and respect in you. For all of this, we can all afford to be profoundly grateful.
C
Clairvaux
Guest
This morning’s readings, especially our text from the Second Letter of St Paul to the Corinthians, provide us with a framework to reflect on the call to discipleship, the call to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the call to personal holiness. As we do so, we can make connections with the life and ministry of John Wesley, and hear some of his words which still resonate with us today.
After an eloquent account of what Paul and his companions had experienced and endured in order to bring the gospel to the people of Corinth, Paul notes: We have spoken frankly to you Corinthians; our heart is wide open to you. There is no restriction in our affections… (vv.11-12). The missionary spirit which we see in St Paul is certainly one which inspired John Wesley, as was Paul’s desire to give himself completely to Christ. Wesley noted that as a young man, reading Thomas à Kempis awoke in him an interior dimension of faith, “the religion of the heart”. He wrote: “I saw that giving even all my life to God… would profit me nothing unless I gave my heart, yea all my heart to Him.” His experience of God at the Aldersgate Street gathering in 1738 in turn gave him the conviction that God’s forgiveness and grace were given unconditionally to him, and this propelled him to mission. For Wesley, there was no such thing as being a half-Christian. The gift received invited a response of the whole person, with intellect and heart, knowledge and piety placed generously at the service of the Gospel, put into action in order that Christian discipleship touched every aspect of the life of the believer. Wesley told his itinerant preachers: “You have nothing to do but to save souls, therefore spend and be spent in this work.” The experience of the disciples at the end of today’s gospel, the sense of awe and wonder at the way in which Jesus had calmed the wind and sea, was an experience Wesley looked to awaken in his hearers in order that they might be converted to a vibrant discipleship of Christ.
Today’s passage from St Paul also presents the urgent need to spread the good news of what God has done for us in Jesus Christ. “See, now is the acceptable time; … now is the day of salvation” (2 Cor 6:2). As a folk theologian, an itinerant preacher travelling throughout Britain, Wesley was moved by this same sense of urgency to patiently but persistently spread the glad tidings of salvation, to preach the Word in season and out. His mission was grounded in Scripture, in his understanding of Scripture as the primary and abiding testimony to the redemptive work of God in Christ. He saw his mission as “spreading scriptural holiness throughout the land.” The core of the message was the limitless grace and love of God, echoing a line addressed to God from today’s Psalm (9:10): “You have never forsaken those that seek you.” As the leader of a revival movement, Wesley organized rounds and circuits to be visited by a band of itinerant preachers. The pastoral style he taught and encouraged was characterized by a desire to make known the love of Christ, to reform the inner life of the church, to encourage participation in the celebration of the Eucharist, to foster Christian education, to serve the poor, to impassion professed Christians into articulate witness for Christ’s sake.
After an eloquent account of what Paul and his companions had experienced and endured in order to bring the gospel to the people of Corinth, Paul notes: We have spoken frankly to you Corinthians; our heart is wide open to you. There is no restriction in our affections… (vv.11-12). The missionary spirit which we see in St Paul is certainly one which inspired John Wesley, as was Paul’s desire to give himself completely to Christ. Wesley noted that as a young man, reading Thomas à Kempis awoke in him an interior dimension of faith, “the religion of the heart”. He wrote: “I saw that giving even all my life to God… would profit me nothing unless I gave my heart, yea all my heart to Him.” His experience of God at the Aldersgate Street gathering in 1738 in turn gave him the conviction that God’s forgiveness and grace were given unconditionally to him, and this propelled him to mission. For Wesley, there was no such thing as being a half-Christian. The gift received invited a response of the whole person, with intellect and heart, knowledge and piety placed generously at the service of the Gospel, put into action in order that Christian discipleship touched every aspect of the life of the believer. Wesley told his itinerant preachers: “You have nothing to do but to save souls, therefore spend and be spent in this work.” The experience of the disciples at the end of today’s gospel, the sense of awe and wonder at the way in which Jesus had calmed the wind and sea, was an experience Wesley looked to awaken in his hearers in order that they might be converted to a vibrant discipleship of Christ.
Today’s passage from St Paul also presents the urgent need to spread the good news of what God has done for us in Jesus Christ. “See, now is the acceptable time; … now is the day of salvation” (2 Cor 6:2). As a folk theologian, an itinerant preacher travelling throughout Britain, Wesley was moved by this same sense of urgency to patiently but persistently spread the glad tidings of salvation, to preach the Word in season and out. His mission was grounded in Scripture, in his understanding of Scripture as the primary and abiding testimony to the redemptive work of God in Christ. He saw his mission as “spreading scriptural holiness throughout the land.” The core of the message was the limitless grace and love of God, echoing a line addressed to God from today’s Psalm (9:10): “You have never forsaken those that seek you.” As the leader of a revival movement, Wesley organized rounds and circuits to be visited by a band of itinerant preachers. The pastoral style he taught and encouraged was characterized by a desire to make known the love of Christ, to reform the inner life of the church, to encourage participation in the celebration of the Eucharist, to foster Christian education, to serve the poor, to impassion professed Christians into articulate witness for Christ’s sake.
C
Clairvaux
Guest
A final aspect of John Wesley’s ministry deserves to becommented upon at greater length, namely his understanding of sanctification, the call to holiness. Again we can turn to today’s text from St Paul, where he outlines how he and his missionary companions have sought to live: in “purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, holiness of spirit, genuine love, truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left…” (2 Cor 6:6-7). Following in the spirit of this little litany of St Paul, Wesley understood the call to holiness as being both intensely personal and strongly ecclesial. He encouraged his hearers to strive towards a holy life, to live disciplined, simple lives removed from worldly pleasures, and stressed devotional exercises as a means to grow in one’s relationship with God. The same Lord who calmed the wind and sea can bring stillness and calm to our hearts if we place all our trust in him. The following “personal covenant” dating from 1780 communicates well Wesley’s desire to invite his hearers into such a trusting relationship with God:
I come Lord, I believe Lord.
I throw myself upon thy Grace and Mercy;
do not refuse me!
I have not whither else to go;
Here will I stay, I will not stir from thy door;
On thee will I trust, and rest, and venture myself.
On thee I lay my hope for pardon, for life, for salvation.
if I perish, I perish on thy shoulder;
if I sink, I sink in thy vessel;
if I die, I die at thy door…
At the same time, Wesley saw clearly the importance of Christian community, and sought to cultivate a strong sense of ecclesial identity, desiring through his itinerant preaching to leave behind a company of men and women closely knit together in a common life. It is interesting to hear the testimony of George Whitefield, an itinerant preacher who started out in Wesley’s company of preachers, but eventually went his own way. Whitefield noted that by joining people together in small communities, Wesley “preserved the fruit of his labour. This”, wrote Whitefield, “I neglected, and my people are a rope of sand.”
We began our reflections from St Paul with his words our hearts are wide open to you. Today’s passage concludes with his plea, open wide your hearts also (v.13). It is a sign of the Holy Spirit’s work among us that Methodists and Catholics today can hear this call and seek to respond to it increasingly together, mindful of our common baptism, and in the context of an ever developing relationship which invites us to share, to the extent that it is presently possible, in Christ’s mission to the world. The most recent report of the international Methodist-Catholic dialogue is entitled “Speaking the Truth in Love”, and its preface notes that this phrase of St Paul (Eph 4:15) “captures both the spirit in which the dialogue has proceeded and the result that is hoped for from it.” May we ever hold fast to both truth and love, pursuing them in tandem, and trusting that if we do so, the Holy Spirit will draw us ever more closely together.
The Methodist tradition of hymns is one which has resulted in an enriching of the Catholic Church and many other Christian traditions. Charles Wesley’s hymn Love Divine, All Loves Excelling is well known to English speaking Christians throughout the world. Mindful of the principle that our prayer expresses our belief (lex orandi, lex credendi), let us make the last verse of that hymn our common prayer to the Lord today:
Finish then Thy new creation,
Pure and spotless let us be;
Let us see Thy great salvation
Perfectly restored in Thee!
Changed from glory into glory,
Till in heaven we take our place,
Till we cast our crowns before Thee,
Lost in wonder, love, and praise.
Information Service 114 (2003/IV), pp.183-185
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/meth-council-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20030622_methodist-church_en.html
I come Lord, I believe Lord.
I throw myself upon thy Grace and Mercy;
do not refuse me!
I have not whither else to go;
Here will I stay, I will not stir from thy door;
On thee will I trust, and rest, and venture myself.
On thee I lay my hope for pardon, for life, for salvation.
if I perish, I perish on thy shoulder;
if I sink, I sink in thy vessel;
if I die, I die at thy door…
At the same time, Wesley saw clearly the importance of Christian community, and sought to cultivate a strong sense of ecclesial identity, desiring through his itinerant preaching to leave behind a company of men and women closely knit together in a common life. It is interesting to hear the testimony of George Whitefield, an itinerant preacher who started out in Wesley’s company of preachers, but eventually went his own way. Whitefield noted that by joining people together in small communities, Wesley “preserved the fruit of his labour. This”, wrote Whitefield, “I neglected, and my people are a rope of sand.”
We began our reflections from St Paul with his words our hearts are wide open to you. Today’s passage concludes with his plea, open wide your hearts also (v.13). It is a sign of the Holy Spirit’s work among us that Methodists and Catholics today can hear this call and seek to respond to it increasingly together, mindful of our common baptism, and in the context of an ever developing relationship which invites us to share, to the extent that it is presently possible, in Christ’s mission to the world. The most recent report of the international Methodist-Catholic dialogue is entitled “Speaking the Truth in Love”, and its preface notes that this phrase of St Paul (Eph 4:15) “captures both the spirit in which the dialogue has proceeded and the result that is hoped for from it.” May we ever hold fast to both truth and love, pursuing them in tandem, and trusting that if we do so, the Holy Spirit will draw us ever more closely together.
The Methodist tradition of hymns is one which has resulted in an enriching of the Catholic Church and many other Christian traditions. Charles Wesley’s hymn Love Divine, All Loves Excelling is well known to English speaking Christians throughout the world. Mindful of the principle that our prayer expresses our belief (lex orandi, lex credendi), let us make the last verse of that hymn our common prayer to the Lord today:
Finish then Thy new creation,
Pure and spotless let us be;
Let us see Thy great salvation
Perfectly restored in Thee!
Changed from glory into glory,
Till in heaven we take our place,
Till we cast our crowns before Thee,
Lost in wonder, love, and praise.
Information Service 114 (2003/IV), pp.183-185
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/meth-council-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20030622_methodist-church_en.html
B
Barbkw
Guest
youtube.com/watch?v=T1rD2sLbFRw
Marcus’ interview with Joshua Johnson talks about Methodism being a stepping stone to Catholicism.
Cursor over to 16:00 and they start talking about John Wesley, Methodism and Catholicism.
Marcus’ interview with Joshua Johnson talks about Methodism being a stepping stone to Catholicism.
Cursor over to 16:00 and they start talking about John Wesley, Methodism and Catholicism.
Z
Zooey
Guest
Incidentally, there is a wonderful story about John Wesley that illustrates his ecumenical spirit. It is among the (many!!) stories of his impatience with his brother Charles (who was
not ecumenical in the least).Charles Wesley asked John to set aside some time to discuss what he descrribed as an emergency. When Charles arrived, he began speaking animatedly & with great distress about the fact that his[C’s] son had announced his engagement to a Catholic girl.
John Wesley stood up in the middle of all this & began to leave the room without a word, but Charles prevented him, demanding, “What are you doing?”, to which John Wesley replied: “Your message sounded so urgent that I thought something was wrong, and now all you say is that your son is planning to marry a Christian.
I have a sermon to write!”This was, you realize, in the 18th Century…
There is also the fact that when he was riding his horse from place to place, he did so with a rosary in his hands, praying as he went.
(I may be regarded as a
*wee *bit prejudiced in Father Wesley’s favor).
C
Clairvaux
Guest
socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/07/john-wesleys-espousal-of-prayer-for.html
John Wesley (1703-1791) was the founder of Methodism and a lifelong Anglican. From the book, John Wesley in Company With High Churchmen, Harrington William Holden, London: Church Press, 5th edition, 1872, pp. 84-87. Wesley’s own words will be in blue.
Wesley taught the propriety of Praying for the Dead, practiced it himself, and provided Forms, that others might. These forms, for daily use, he put forth, not tentatively or apologetically, but as considering such prayer a settled matter of Christian practice, with all who believe that the Faithful, living and dead, are one Body in Christ, in equal need and like expectation of those blessings which they will together enjoy, when both see Him in His Kingdom. Two or three examples, out of many, may be given: – “O grant that we, with those who are already dead in Thy faith and fear, may together partake of a joyful resurrection.” (x.40.) “. . . that we all together with those that now sleep in Thee, may awake to life everlasting.” (p. 48.) “Bring us, with all those who have pleased Thee from the beginning of the world, into the glories of Thy Son’s Kingdom.” (p. 73.) “By Thy infinite mercies, vouchsafe to bring us, with those that are dead in Thee, to rejoice together before Thee,” &c. (p. 77.) The Prayers passed through many editions, and were in common use among thousands of Methodists of every degree, who, without scruple or doubtfulness, prayed for those who sleep in Jesus every day that they prayed to the common Father of all. Insomuch that there are Methodists of the old school (still abiding in the Ship by Wesley’s advice), who use them night and morning to this day, entirely undisturbed by the doubts which modern disputers have sought to cast upon the practice.
One such disputer (Bishop Lavington) did Wesley encounter, and notices him thus: – “Your fourth argument is, That in a collection of Prayers, I cite the words of an ancient Liturgy – ‘for the Faithful Departed.’ Sir, whenever I use those word in the Burial Service, I pray to the same effect: ‘That we, with all those who are departed in Thy faith and fear, may have our perfect consummation of bliss, both in body and soul.’ Yea, and whenever I say, ‘Thy Kingdom come;’ for I mean both the kingdom of grace and glory. In this kind of general prayer, therefore, for the Faithful Departed, I conceive myself to be clearly justified, both by the earliest Antiquity, by the Church of England, and by the Lord’s Prayer.” (1750.) xvi.345.
. . . “’ ‘Tis certain, Praying for the Dead was common in the second century:’ you might have said, and in the first also (replied Wesley); seeing that petition, ‘Thy Kingdom come.’ manifestly concerns the saints in Paradise, as well as those upon earth.” “Praying thus far for the dead, ‘That God would shortly accomplish the number of His elect, and hasten His Kingdom,’ you will not easily prove to be any corruption at all.” xviii. 154, 155.
Having thus silenced these clerical disputants, Wesley re-published the above Prayers and continued the sale of them at all his preaching-houses as long as he lived. . . .
Exactly answerable to all this, are those awful words, in the prayer at the burial of the dead – ‘Beseeching Thee, that it may please Thee of Thy gracious goodness, shortly to accomplish the number of Thine elect, and to hasten Thy Kingdom; that we. with all those who are departed in the true faith of Thy Holy Name, may have our perfect consummation and bliss, both in body and soul, in Thy everlasting glory.’" Ss. 1. 298. . . .
And in a Manuscript of Mr. Wesley’s recently published for the first time; without date, but expressing the sentiment of his whole life as the above citations from his several Works sufficiently show; he says, “I believe it to be a duty to observe to pray for the Faithful Departed.”
Likewise, in what Martin Luther regarded as his final confession of faith in his 1528 work against the Zwinglians, Confession Concerning Christ’s Supper, he wrote as follows:
As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: ‘Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.’ And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice.
(Luther’s Works, Vol. 37, p. 369)
Luther’s approval of prayers for the dead given out of free devotion was shared in Luther’s successor Philip Melanchthon’s apology to the Augsburg Confession (article XXIV, 94), where he wrote:
Now, as regards the adversaries’ citing the Fathers concerning the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit; . . .
Posted by Dave Armstrong at 11:59 PM
John Wesley (1703-1791) was the founder of Methodism and a lifelong Anglican. From the book, John Wesley in Company With High Churchmen, Harrington William Holden, London: Church Press, 5th edition, 1872, pp. 84-87. Wesley’s own words will be in blue.
Wesley taught the propriety of Praying for the Dead, practiced it himself, and provided Forms, that others might. These forms, for daily use, he put forth, not tentatively or apologetically, but as considering such prayer a settled matter of Christian practice, with all who believe that the Faithful, living and dead, are one Body in Christ, in equal need and like expectation of those blessings which they will together enjoy, when both see Him in His Kingdom. Two or three examples, out of many, may be given: – “O grant that we, with those who are already dead in Thy faith and fear, may together partake of a joyful resurrection.” (x.40.) “. . . that we all together with those that now sleep in Thee, may awake to life everlasting.” (p. 48.) “Bring us, with all those who have pleased Thee from the beginning of the world, into the glories of Thy Son’s Kingdom.” (p. 73.) “By Thy infinite mercies, vouchsafe to bring us, with those that are dead in Thee, to rejoice together before Thee,” &c. (p. 77.) The Prayers passed through many editions, and were in common use among thousands of Methodists of every degree, who, without scruple or doubtfulness, prayed for those who sleep in Jesus every day that they prayed to the common Father of all. Insomuch that there are Methodists of the old school (still abiding in the Ship by Wesley’s advice), who use them night and morning to this day, entirely undisturbed by the doubts which modern disputers have sought to cast upon the practice.
One such disputer (Bishop Lavington) did Wesley encounter, and notices him thus: – “Your fourth argument is, That in a collection of Prayers, I cite the words of an ancient Liturgy – ‘for the Faithful Departed.’ Sir, whenever I use those word in the Burial Service, I pray to the same effect: ‘That we, with all those who are departed in Thy faith and fear, may have our perfect consummation of bliss, both in body and soul.’ Yea, and whenever I say, ‘Thy Kingdom come;’ for I mean both the kingdom of grace and glory. In this kind of general prayer, therefore, for the Faithful Departed, I conceive myself to be clearly justified, both by the earliest Antiquity, by the Church of England, and by the Lord’s Prayer.” (1750.) xvi.345.
. . . “’ ‘Tis certain, Praying for the Dead was common in the second century:’ you might have said, and in the first also (replied Wesley); seeing that petition, ‘Thy Kingdom come.’ manifestly concerns the saints in Paradise, as well as those upon earth.” “Praying thus far for the dead, ‘That God would shortly accomplish the number of His elect, and hasten His Kingdom,’ you will not easily prove to be any corruption at all.” xviii. 154, 155.
Having thus silenced these clerical disputants, Wesley re-published the above Prayers and continued the sale of them at all his preaching-houses as long as he lived. . . .
Exactly answerable to all this, are those awful words, in the prayer at the burial of the dead – ‘Beseeching Thee, that it may please Thee of Thy gracious goodness, shortly to accomplish the number of Thine elect, and to hasten Thy Kingdom; that we. with all those who are departed in the true faith of Thy Holy Name, may have our perfect consummation and bliss, both in body and soul, in Thy everlasting glory.’" Ss. 1. 298. . . .
And in a Manuscript of Mr. Wesley’s recently published for the first time; without date, but expressing the sentiment of his whole life as the above citations from his several Works sufficiently show; he says, “I believe it to be a duty to observe to pray for the Faithful Departed.”
Likewise, in what Martin Luther regarded as his final confession of faith in his 1528 work against the Zwinglians, Confession Concerning Christ’s Supper, he wrote as follows:
As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: ‘Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.’ And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice.
(Luther’s Works, Vol. 37, p. 369)
Luther’s approval of prayers for the dead given out of free devotion was shared in Luther’s successor Philip Melanchthon’s apology to the Augsburg Confession (article XXIV, 94), where he wrote:
Now, as regards the adversaries’ citing the Fathers concerning the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit; . . .
Posted by Dave Armstrong at 11:59 PM
H
hazcompat
Guest
He read scripture and the Imitation daily.
peace
peace
C
Clairvaux
Guest
socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/07/john-wesleys-belief-in-intermediate.html
Question: What happens immediately after a person dies? Do they go directly to heaven or hell or do they go to a holding place until Christ returns to earth for the final judgment?
Answer: The basic beliefs of United Methodists can be found in the Book of Discipline in Our Doctrinal Standards and General Rules. However, mention of “hell” and “heaven” as serious afterlife issues cannot be found in this section or any other part of the Book of Discipline.
Methodist Doctrine: The Essentials by Ted A. Campbell says, “The Methodist Articles of Religion, following the teachings of the Reformation, rejected the medieval Catholic idea of purgatory as a place where the souls of those who have died in Christ could be aided or helped by the prayers of the living. John Wesley himself believed in an intermediate state between and the final judgment [sic], where those who rejected Christ would be aware of their coming doom (not yet pronounced), and believers would share in the “bosom of Abraham” or “paradise,” even continuing to grow in holiness there. This belief, however, is not formally affirmed in Methodist doctrinal standards, which reject the idea of purgatory but beyond that maintain silence on what lies between death and the last judgment.”
link ]
2) From The United Methodist Portal website:
United Methodists have no official doctrine on “heaven” or “hell” except for this confessional statement: “We believe in the resurrection of the dead, the righteous to life eternal and the wicked to endless condemnation.” . . .
John Wesley believed in the intermediate state between death and the final judgment “where believers would share in the ‘bosom of Abraham’ or ‘paradise,’ even continuing to grow in holiness there,” writes Ted Campbell, a professor at Perkins School of Theology, in his 1999 book Methodist Doctrine: The Essentials (Abingdon). That view has not been officially affirmed by the church.
(“Heavenly minded: It’s time to get our eschatology right, say scholars, authors,” Robin Russell, 6 April 2009)
3) From John Henry Overton (1835-1903), John Wesley, Boston and New York: Houghton, Mifflin & Co. / The Riverside Press, Cambridge, 1891, p. 39:
- From umc.org, the official site for the United Methodist Church:
FAQ Belief
Question: What happens immediately after a person dies? Do they go directly to heaven or hell or do they go to a holding place until Christ returns to earth for the final judgment?
Answer: The basic beliefs of United Methodists can be found in the Book of Discipline in Our Doctrinal Standards and General Rules. However, mention of “hell” and “heaven” as serious afterlife issues cannot be found in this section or any other part of the Book of Discipline.
Methodist Doctrine: The Essentials by Ted A. Campbell says, “The Methodist Articles of Religion, following the teachings of the Reformation, rejected the medieval Catholic idea of purgatory as a place where the souls of those who have died in Christ could be aided or helped by the prayers of the living. John Wesley himself believed in an intermediate state between and the final judgment [sic], where those who rejected Christ would be aware of their coming doom (not yet pronounced), and believers would share in the “bosom of Abraham” or “paradise,” even continuing to grow in holiness there. This belief, however, is not formally affirmed in Methodist doctrinal standards, which reject the idea of purgatory but beyond that maintain silence on what lies between death and the last judgment.”
link ]
2) From The United Methodist Portal website:
United Methodists have no official doctrine on “heaven” or “hell” except for this confessional statement: “We believe in the resurrection of the dead, the righteous to life eternal and the wicked to endless condemnation.” . . .
John Wesley believed in the intermediate state between death and the final judgment “where believers would share in the ‘bosom of Abraham’ or ‘paradise,’ even continuing to grow in holiness there,” writes Ted Campbell, a professor at Perkins School of Theology, in his 1999 book Methodist Doctrine: The Essentials (Abingdon). That view has not been officially affirmed by the church.
(“Heavenly minded: It’s time to get our eschatology right, say scholars, authors,” Robin Russell, 6 April 2009)
3) From John Henry Overton (1835-1903), John Wesley, Boston and New York: Houghton, Mifflin & Co. / The Riverside Press, Cambridge, 1891, p. 39:
C
Clairvaux
Guest
"1756, November 1, was a day of triumphant joy, as All Saints’ Day generally is. How superstitious are they who scruple giving God solemn thanks for the lives and deaths of His saints!
"1767, November 1. Being All Saints’ Day (a Festival I dearly love) . . . " . . .
He always made a point of preaching on “The Communion of Saints” on All Saints’ Day. He thoroughly realized the doctrine of the Intermediate State, and to his dying day used to speak of his departed Christian friends, not as “having gone to heaven,” in the popular phraseology, but as being in Paradise, or in Abraham’s bosom.
4) Letter to John Wesley (26 March 1770) from Calvinist Anglican Augustus Toplady (1740-1778):
You affect to be deemed a minister of the national Church. Why then do you decry her doctrines, and, as far as in you lies, sap her discipline? That you decry her doctrines needs no proof: witness, for example, the wide discrepancy between her decisions and yours on the articles of freewill, justification, predestination, perseverance, and sinless perfection; to say nothing concerning your new-fangled doctrine of the intermediate state of departed souls.
5) Letter of John Wesley to Miss B (17 April 1776), from The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, Vol. X: Tracts and Letters on Various Subjects, New York: J. & J. Harper, 1827, p. 322:
But what is the essential part of heaven? Undoubtedly it is To see God: To know God: To love God. We shall then know both his Nature, and his works of creation and providence, and of redemption. Even in paradise, in the intermediate state between death and the resurrection, we shall learn more concerning these in an hour, than we could in an age, during our stay in the body. We cannot tell indeed how we shall then exist, or what kind or organs we shall have: the soul will not be encumbered with flesh and blood; but probably it will have some sort of ethereal vehicle, even before God clothes us “with our nobler house of empyrean light.”
6) Albert C. Outler (1908-1989), John Wesley: Folk-Theologian, Theology Today, Vol. 34, No. 2, July 1977:
His lively discussions of “the intermediate state” are integral to his eschatology as a whole.
[footnote: Cf., e.g., his sermon “Of Hell,” 1.4; “The Trouble and Rest of Good Men,” Proem., II.6; “The Rich Man and Lazarus,” 1.3; “On Worldly Folly,” II.6; “On Faith” (Heb. 11:1), 4.]
7) Karen B. Westerfield Tucker, American Methodist Worship, Oxford University Press, 2001, p. 202:
Decisions made during life were therefore inseparably connected to what came after life. Upon death, according to Wesley, the souls of the deceased would enter an intermediate, penultimate state in which they would remain until reunited with the body at the resurrection of the dead. In that state variously identified as “the ante-chamber of heaven,” “Abraham’s bosom,” and “paradise,” . . .
8) Douglas P. Finkbeiner, “Interpreting Luke 16: Abraham, Lazarus, and the Rich Man – Parable or History?”:
John Wesley on the parable–
But is the subsequent account merely a parable, or a real history? It has been believed by many, and roundly asserted, to be a mere parable, because of one or two circumstances therein, which are not easy to be accounted for. In particular, it is hard to conceive, how a person in hell could hold conversation with one in paradise. But, admitting we cannot account for this, will it overbalance an express assertion of our Lord: “There was,” says our Lord, “a certain rich man.” – Was there not? Did such a man never exist? “And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus.”- -Was there, or was there not? Is it not bold enough, positively to deny what our blessed Lord positively affirms? Therefore, we cannot reasonably doubt, but the whole narration, with all its circumstances, is exactly true. And Theophylact (one of the ancient commentators on the Scriptures) observes upon the text, that, "according to the tradition of the Jews, Lazarus lived at Jerusalem.
Posted by Dave Armstrong at 5:23 PM
"1767, November 1. Being All Saints’ Day (a Festival I dearly love) . . . " . . .
He always made a point of preaching on “The Communion of Saints” on All Saints’ Day. He thoroughly realized the doctrine of the Intermediate State, and to his dying day used to speak of his departed Christian friends, not as “having gone to heaven,” in the popular phraseology, but as being in Paradise, or in Abraham’s bosom.
4) Letter to John Wesley (26 March 1770) from Calvinist Anglican Augustus Toplady (1740-1778):
You affect to be deemed a minister of the national Church. Why then do you decry her doctrines, and, as far as in you lies, sap her discipline? That you decry her doctrines needs no proof: witness, for example, the wide discrepancy between her decisions and yours on the articles of freewill, justification, predestination, perseverance, and sinless perfection; to say nothing concerning your new-fangled doctrine of the intermediate state of departed souls.
5) Letter of John Wesley to Miss B (17 April 1776), from The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, Vol. X: Tracts and Letters on Various Subjects, New York: J. & J. Harper, 1827, p. 322:
But what is the essential part of heaven? Undoubtedly it is To see God: To know God: To love God. We shall then know both his Nature, and his works of creation and providence, and of redemption. Even in paradise, in the intermediate state between death and the resurrection, we shall learn more concerning these in an hour, than we could in an age, during our stay in the body. We cannot tell indeed how we shall then exist, or what kind or organs we shall have: the soul will not be encumbered with flesh and blood; but probably it will have some sort of ethereal vehicle, even before God clothes us “with our nobler house of empyrean light.”
6) Albert C. Outler (1908-1989), John Wesley: Folk-Theologian, Theology Today, Vol. 34, No. 2, July 1977:
His lively discussions of “the intermediate state” are integral to his eschatology as a whole.
[footnote: Cf., e.g., his sermon “Of Hell,” 1.4; “The Trouble and Rest of Good Men,” Proem., II.6; “The Rich Man and Lazarus,” 1.3; “On Worldly Folly,” II.6; “On Faith” (Heb. 11:1), 4.]
7) Karen B. Westerfield Tucker, American Methodist Worship, Oxford University Press, 2001, p. 202:
Decisions made during life were therefore inseparably connected to what came after life. Upon death, according to Wesley, the souls of the deceased would enter an intermediate, penultimate state in which they would remain until reunited with the body at the resurrection of the dead. In that state variously identified as “the ante-chamber of heaven,” “Abraham’s bosom,” and “paradise,” . . .
8) Douglas P. Finkbeiner, “Interpreting Luke 16: Abraham, Lazarus, and the Rich Man – Parable or History?”:
John Wesley on the parable–
But is the subsequent account merely a parable, or a real history? It has been believed by many, and roundly asserted, to be a mere parable, because of one or two circumstances therein, which are not easy to be accounted for. In particular, it is hard to conceive, how a person in hell could hold conversation with one in paradise. But, admitting we cannot account for this, will it overbalance an express assertion of our Lord: “There was,” says our Lord, “a certain rich man.” – Was there not? Did such a man never exist? “And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus.”- -Was there, or was there not? Is it not bold enough, positively to deny what our blessed Lord positively affirms? Therefore, we cannot reasonably doubt, but the whole narration, with all its circumstances, is exactly true. And Theophylact (one of the ancient commentators on the Scriptures) observes upon the text, that, "according to the tradition of the Jews, Lazarus lived at Jerusalem.
Posted by Dave Armstrong at 5:23 PM
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