Thoughts on Mary: sinless

[OldeThom]

Greetings everyone!

I am new to the forums and have posted a few things already. I am a long time protestant (Baptist mostly) and come from a long line of Baptists (since our family’s elder came to Rhode Island in the 1640’s - no kidding!). I am reading through and studying in the US CCA (and other references for about a year now) and will be taking the RCIA class this Sept. Tradition teaches that Mary was without the stain of original sin and that she was sinless (CCC 508). I mean no disrespect in my questions, btw, and would appreciate responses free of sarcasm and cynicism. I can appreciate, understand and believe almost all that I’ve read about Mary, which include the works of those in the early Church (3 - 7 centuries). One aspect, being sinless, has become an issue. It goes contrary to everything I have ever heard, known or read in the Scriptures - what I believe, that ALL have fallen short of the Glory of God. Tradition teaches that we accept that she was sinless on faith. I am praying daily for guidance and understanding, believe me. My question is this:

Why is it so important to believe that she did not sin anymore, especially since she still had free will and subject to concupiscence?

I am looking for personal statements rather than what doctrine and Tradition teach. Nor do I want to get into a long drawn out discussion on the meaning of “full of grace.” I have enough information to fill 100’s of pages. Again, I mean no disrespect by my question, and would appreciate responses free of sarcasm and cynicism. I know how important Mary is to the Church, although I have never given her the respect and veneration due her, that will change!

Also bear in mind that this is not about her perpetual virginity or that she was the bearer of God the Son, Mother of God, nor a discussion on when she was Sanctified as Holy, at her birth or upon receiving the Holy Spirit. I know a majority of the ancient Fathers of the Church believed Mary was perpetually a virgin, Mother of God and Sanctified in order to have a “proper vessel” in which to carry Jesus. These include Clement, Jerome, and Origen (as well as many others), and many Reformers like Luther, Calvin, and Wesley - which might shock a great many protestants.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[davidv]

Greetings everyone!

I am new to the forums and have posted a few things already. I am a long time protestant (Baptist mostly) and come from a long line of Baptists (since our family’s elder came to Rhode Island in the 1640’s - no kidding!). I am reading through and studying in the US CCA (and other references for about a year now) and will be taking the RCIA class this Sept. Tradition teaches that Mary was without the stain of original sin and that she was sinless (CCC 508). I mean no disrespect in my questions, btw, and would appreciate responses free of sarcasm and cynicism. I can appreciate, understand and believe almost all that I’ve read about Mary, which include the works of those in the early Church (3 - 7 centuries). One aspect, being sinless, has become an issue. It goes contrary to everything I have ever heard, known or read in the Scriptures - what I believe, that ALL have fallen short of the Glory of God. Tradition teaches that we accept that she was sinless on faith. I am praying daily for guidance and understanding, believe me. My question is this:

Why is it so important to believe that she did not sin anymore, especially since she still had free will and subject to concupiscence?

I am looking for personal statements rather than what doctrine and Tradition teach. Nor do I want to get into a long drawn out discussion on the meaning of “full of grace.” I have enough information to fill 100’s of pages. Again, I mean no disrespect by my question, and would appreciate responses free of sarcasm and cynicism. I know how important Mary is to the Church, although I have never given her the respect and veneration due her, that will change!

Also bear in mind that this is not about her perpetual virginity or that she was the bearer of God the Son, Mother of God, nor a discussion on when she was Sanctified as Holy, at her birth or upon receiving the Holy Spirit. I know a majority of the ancient Fathers of the Church believed Mary was perpetually a virgin, Mother of God and Sanctified in order to have a “proper vessel” in which to carry Jesus. These include Clement, Jerome, and Origen (as well as many others), and many Reformers like Luther, Calvin, and Wesley - which might shock a great many protestants.

Respectfully,
Thom

Thom - Welcome to the forums.

My first “personal” reaction to your post was to wonder why Mary’s sinless is an issue for you. Why would anyone begrudge any human of attaining this state?

My personal reflection on why it is so important is because in one way, shape or form, the denial of Her sinlessnes is used to deny an aspect of Jesus or discredit His Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

For me, the truth behind Mary’s sinlessness is found in her being the Ark of the New Covenant. When you study how much the Ark of the Covenant is “renewed” in Mary, and you see how detailed the construction of the original Ark was, it’s not too much of a “mental leap” to land on the “Mary is Sinless” square.

 

[VociMike]

It is important to know and believe in the sinlessness of Mary because God has chosen to reveal it to us through his Church. That is to say, it is important to know and believe because God thinks it is important for us to know and believe.

 

[Tom]

Welcome to the forum, and welcome home. I have lots of Baptist friends, wonderful people.
Since we are created in the image of God, I can only answer as a human. If I could have created my own mother free from sin, I certainly would have. Wouldn’t you? Think about it. The original woman was created free from sin, it’s the way we should all be born. If it wasn’t for our fallen nature we would have been. God simply saved her before she fell, the rest of us He saves after we fell. Jesus saved her from sin prior to her conception, because He could. He needed an immaculate mother one who was never in sin, original or otherwise. After His birth, small wonder she remained sinless. Can you imagine sinning knowing your Son knew your every thought?

 

[OldeThom]

Thom - Welcome to the forums.

My first “personal” reaction to your post was to wonder why Mary’s sinless is an issue for you. Why would anyone begrudge any human of attaining this state?

My personal reflection on why it is so important is because in one way, shape or form, the denial of Her sinlessnes is used to deny an aspect of Jesus or discredit His Church.

I fully understand and appreciate your “personal” reaction. Thank you. It is an issue for me because sinlessness, in this context, seems to imply perfection which is impossible given our present, temporal state. In my readings and travels over the years I have come across many cults, philosophies and religions that want you to believe that they have the way to perfection. Scripture as well as Tradition teaches us that through Jesus Christ is the ONLY way we can ever hope to attain perfection, that we are on a path to perfection, or the path of holiness, and that none of us can attain perfection until we are finally united with God in Heaven. I don’t begrudge anyone who has that hope, I just know it and believe it to be an impossibility for anyone on this earth given our rebellion against God and our Fall, i.e., being human and not God. My hope of sinlessness, and therefore perfection, rests not on what I hope for on this earth, nor on the things of this earth, but on what God the Father has planned for me through the gift of Salvation through His Son. The same hope I always believed Mary had.

As to the second part of your answer, that is a good point, one I did not consider, so thank you.

 

[Della]

OldeThom:

One aspect, being sinless, has become an issue. It goes contrary to everything I have ever heard, known or read in the Scriptures - what I believe, that ALL have fallen short of the Glory of God. Tradition teaches that we accept that she was sinless on faith. I am praying daily for guidance and understanding, believe me. My question is this:

Why is it so important to believe that she did not sin anymore, especially since she still had free will and subject to concupiscence?

Well I do have to address a couple of points of doctrine that I think you are confused about. If I didn’t my personal opinions wouldn’t be worth a hill of beans.

First of all, when Paul stated that “all have sinned” he was addressing the fact that Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners, iow, all are sinners whether they are the children of Abraham or not. He was not addressing culpability or personal sin. Also, if we are to take Paul’s words at face value, ripped out of their context, it would mean that Jesus also sinned. He was human too. Yes?

Also, Mary was born free from concupiscence–the desire to sin. This was a result of her Immaculate Conception. Therefore, she couldn’t sin in the same way we do, nearly inadvertently–because of our fallen nature. She would have had to have deliberately chosen to sin–to go against God’s will and his love. No where in Scripture or tradition is Mary described as doing so.

Why was it so important that she not sin? Why would it be important for her to have sinned, might be the better question, if you don’t mind my turning your question around. Would you really want the one who bore the very Son of God in her womb to sin? It wouldn’t have made her “more human” since human beings are not meant for sin but for holiness. It certainly wasn’t necessary for Jesus to sin to be “more human”, so why should Mary have had to have been a sinner?

Personally speaking, I find the sinlessness of Mary most encouraging. She is the example of what we will be when we too are past being able to desire to sin or to commit sin as we stand in God’s presence in heaven. She is the foretaste of the heavenly life that God intends for all of us and for which Christ lived, suffered, died and rose from the dead.

 

[ShemariahBeans]

Ah OldeThom, you are making a journey I made many years out. God bless the Baptists, they have taught us all a few things about Bible Study!
Let me approach your question a different way, and from one who is working hard to think with the Church. The dogmas concerning Mary can be a huge stumbling block to those of us not raised from the cradle to understand her blessed position in the Church.

Enoch walked with God for 365 years, and then he was not, for God took. Early in Genesis and I read this and I thrill. Enoch was translated into heaven. Elijah went up on the whirlwind. So it is possible to enter heaven without death.

So that took care of the Assumption for me. 1 dogma done, others to go.

The Eucharist is very sacred and holy, because it is in fact Christ Himself. He is our Bread come down from heaven, and we are strengthened by Him in the Eucharist. It is why you see such reverence in the celebration of the Mass - He is there. It is why you can see a myriad of people at the adoration of the Eucharist. HE is there.

Ok, Beans, where are you going with this? Well, if I am strengthened through the Eucharist, imagine having been the person blessed enough to carry Him in her womb!! They shared heartbeats, blood, movement, love. He was recognizable from the start - as seen when John lept in Elizabeth’s womb.

And Mary was not just with Him then, she was there beginning to end…the pieta kills me. So then, I have no problem with the dogma of Mary being sinless.

What the Church does then is work backwards. God is God, and in His wisdom, love and care for us, He was going to empty himself of all the heavenly glory, and become a man. From beginning to end. Imagine having created the world, and then giving that up to be constricted in a single cell?? (This hit me on Monday when I was in front of the Eucharist!!). Being God, He would be fully Human but fully divine. For Jesus to give up His life as the perfect Sacrifice, He had to be without sin…so the logic of a mere humans under Divine Grace knows that Mary had to be without sin - from the very first moment of her conception. The blood they shared was without sin.

Just as Adam was the man who first sinned, and thus we all have that stain of original sin until the blessed sacrament of Baptism from him, so Eve was the “mother” of all living - the disobedient mother. The wilful mother, whose first offspring was a murderer.

Then along comes Mary. A young virgin, betrothed. Who when the angel Gabriel spoke with her, was willing to be obedient to what would happen to her for the rest of her life.

So, apologies, I have not stated it well, but the key is the logic of knowing certain unassailable facts, and working backward from there. Because it the is the Church who gives this dogma, and because I know with a certainty that the holy Catholic church is the bride of Christ, I know that Mary is the mother of all those who are alive spirtually through her Son.

You did fantastic asking your question on this forum. All I can recommend is pray on it. This will not be easy for you - but it is not insurmountable…it will require faith on your part. Especially when you ask such an important question here, and receive a poor response like min.

I’ve been where you are my brother. It is a glorious journey, I will keep you in my prayers!!

 

[OldeThom]

My thanks to one and all, but esp. to Beans and Della for your kind replies and encouragement. Beans you sell yourself short, I think you did wonderfully and was very heartfelt. It is a process not unlike learning how to tie ones shoe - eventually I will be able to walk without my shoes slipping off It will take more study on my part (because that is my nature), continued prayer and guidance on this topic (as well as others that will arise) to have faith that this is the Truth - which is what I am seeking.

It is a wide chasm that has been created between the Church and other Christian churches. I am encouraged to see and read more movement on the part of the Church to lessen that gap and provide the tools, which includes His people, over which to bridge that chasm.

Once again thank you sincerely for all the responses.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[davidv]

I fully understand and appreciate your “personal” reaction. Thank you. It is an issue for me because sinlessness, in this context, seems to imply perfection which is impossible given our present, temporal state.

And yet Jesus gives us this command.

You, therefore, must beperfect, as your heavenly Father isperfect. Mt 5:48

And agrees with you

…“With men this isimpossible, but with God all things are possible.” Mt 19:26

In my readings and travels over the years I have come across many cults, philosophies and religions that want you to believe that they have the way to perfection. Scripture as well as Tradition teaches us that through Jesus Christ is the ONLY way we can ever hope to attain perfection, that we are on a path to perfection, or the path of holiness, and that none of us can attain perfection until we are finally united with God in Heaven. I don’t begrudge anyone who has that hope, I just know it and believe it to be an impossibility for anyone on this earth given our rebellion against God and our Fall, i.e., being human and not God. My hope of sinlessness, and therefore perfection, rests not on what I hope for on this earth, nor on the things of this earth, but on what God the Father has planned for me through the gift of Salvation through His Son. The same hope I always believed Mary had.

As to the second part of your answer, that is a good point, one I did not consider, so thank you.

To me, Mary’s sinlessness provides me the model for trust and obedience that leads to the perfection that is impossible without God’s grace.

 

[VociMike]

Thom,

Of the angels who were created perfect (without sin or inclination to sin) not all of them sinned - only 1/3 sinned. So why do you assume that every human who is created perfect (without sin or inclination to sin) would sin? Your notion that every created being with will and intellect will sin is disproven by the angels.

 

[OldeThom]

Thom,

Of the angels who were created perfect (without sin or inclination to sin) not all of them sinned - only 1/3 sinned. So why do you assume that every human who is created perfect (without sin or inclination to sin) would sin? Your notion that every created being with will and intellect will sin is disproven by the angels.

Notion?? I’m sorry it came across that way. My apologies. I should have been more precise. In the context in which I was addressing, I was only referring to human beings and the things of this earth in the post-Fallen state.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[Della]

My thanks to one and all, but esp. to Beans and Della for your kind replies and encouragement. Beans you sell yourself short, I think you did wonderfully and was very heartfelt. It is a process not unlike learning how to tie ones shoe - eventually I will be able to walk without my shoes slipping off It will take more study on my part (because that is my nature), continued prayer and guidance on this topic (as well as others that will arise) to have faith that this is the Truth - which is what I am seeking.

It is a wide chasm that has been created between the Church and other Christian churches. I am encouraged to see and read more movement on the part of the Church to lessen that gap and provide the tools, which includes His people, over which to bridge that chasm.

Once again thank you sincerely for all the responses.

Respectfully,
Thom

You’re welcome, Thom. I just hope you see how having a misconception about a basic Church teaching can lead you into all sorts of difficulties. Church teaching stands as a whole. We are dissecting a part of it, but it’s rather like dissecting a human body. You could concentrate on the eyes, but lose the significance of how the eyes function within the body. For example, the eyes give us more than mere sight, but also learning through reading, joy in seeing beauty, creativity in looking into ways of making things, friendship by connecting with the eyes of others, etc. Does that make sense or am I explaining it badly?

 

[OldeThom]

You’re welcome, Thom. I just hope you see how having a misconception about a basic Church teaching can lead you into all sorts of difficulties. Church teaching stands as a whole. We are dissecting a part of it, but it’s rather like dissecting a human body. You could concentrate on the eyes, but lose the significance of how the eyes function within the body. For example, the eyes give us more than mere sight, but also learning through reading, joy in seeing beauty, creativity in looking into ways of making things, friendship by connecting with the eyes of others, etc. Does that make sense or am I explaining it badly?

Yes and nope … makes perfect sense and as I see it as well. I study the parts to understand the whole, it is a process and takes time to take it all in.

It was not so much a “misconception” as perspective given my background. Asking questions about Mary to the Catholic faithful, in my mind anyway, was and will be a risk I am willing to take to further my understanding … knowing all too well the importance of Mary in Church teaching and tradition. I was quite hesitate to even post my question, knowing it might be akin to throwing chum for the sharks while wading in water up to my neck.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[Della]

Yes and nope … makes perfect sense and as I see it as well. I study the parts to understand the whole, it is a process and takes time to take it all in.

It was not so much a “misconception” as perspective given my background. Asking questions about Mary to the Catholic faithful, in my mind anyway, was and will be a risk I am willing to take to further my understanding … knowing all too well the importance of Mary in Church teaching and tradition. I was quite hesitate to even post my question, knowing it might be akin to throwing chum for the sharks while wading in water up to my neck.

Respectfully,
Thom

As someone who came from a Pentecostal background I hear you. I too had to sort out the “Mary thing” before taking the plunge. I, however, didn’t learn all I know about these teachings until after I’d come into the Church. I took the route of authority, which is what it really all boils down to: Either the Church has the authority to make pronouncements about matters of faith and morals or it doesn’t. If it does then I am bound to accept all it teaches. If not, I could go on my merry way with no violation of either truth or conscience. That’s how I saw it.

On a personal level I came to see Mary’s place, not only in the Church but in my life, when I prayed the Stations of the Cross for the first time. When we got to Mary beneath the cross, watching her only Son, in whom she and so many others had put their hopes, dying a heinous and ignominious death, I realized that she was worthy of all the things the Church taught about her. I also realized it was for her, as it would be for all of us, the grace of God that worked all the wonders in her life. As she herself put it: “The Lord has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”

As for your reception on the board, you came here wanting answers not to bait or with an agenda or to show contempt, as too many others do. So, I don’t think you’ll need to fear any sharks. We Catholics love Mary as our spiritual mother. That makes us open not closed to helping others understand her place in the Church, and in our lives, so that others may also come to have what we have.

 

[OldeThom]

Della, thank you for your kind words and empathy. Yes precisely you have hit the nail on the head, “Either the Church has the authority to make pronouncements about matters of faith and morals or it doesn’t.” That can not be said any better. God is leading me to the Church for many reasons (some of which are already as plain as the sun on a cloudless day.)

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[VociMike]

Notion?? I’m sorry it came across that way. My apologies. I should have been more precise. In the context in which I was addressing, I was only referring to human beings and the things of this earth in the post-Fallen state.

OK, but Mary was not in the post-Fallen state - that is a core teaching of the Church. So, why would you expect that every human in the pre-Fallen state would sin, when we have the example of the pre-Fallen angels, not all of whom sinned?

 

[VociMike]

Della, thank you for your kind words and empathy. Yes precisely you have hit the nail on the head, “Either the Church has the authority to make pronouncements about matters of faith and morals or it doesn’t.” That can not be said any better. God is leading me to the Church for many reasons (some of which are already as plain as the sun on a cloudless day.)

Right, and with that authority comes hand-in-hand the divine protection to make sure the authority is never abused. This is the divine protection against teaching error. God can and does protect the Church day by day just as he protected the prophets and writers of scripture. He did not somehow abandon his people (now, all Christian believers) after the death of John. The same protection against error he gave then, he still gives now, and will continue to give to the end of time.

 

[Della]

Della, thank you for your kind words and empathy. Yes precisely you have hit the nail on the head, “Either the Church has the authority to make pronouncements about matters of faith and morals or it doesn’t.” That can not be said any better. God is leading me to the Church for many reasons (some of which are already as plain as the sun on a cloudless day.)

Respectfully,
Thom

You’re welcome. Each of us comes in our own time and in our own way. The old saying: “All roads lead to Rome” seems to be the case for those seeking to know and understand the truths of the Catholic Church. You have my prayers. Please say a prayer for me, too.

 

[mark_a]

Hello Thom,
I am looking for personal statements rather than what doctrine and Tradition teach.

Because the Church that gets all the moral teachings right (life issues) and refuses to cave in on the contraception question (which isn’t even a question amongst most Protestant denominations’ teachings), couldn’t be wrong about theological issues.