Thoughts on Mary: sinless

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akmiecik said:
I have this discussion with my Baptist mother-in-law every now and then.

For me, it is not difficult to believe that, since God chose Mary to be the Mother of His Son, He also chose her to be the one exception to the rule that all are born with sin.
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Your mil might not want to hear any explanations that disagreed with what she’s been taught, but if she ever does become open to listening you should emphasis the need to know the context of individual verses. The whole of Romans 3, from which the one verse is taken that she is referring to, is an argument for the consummation of the law in the grace of God made available through the sacrifice of Christ. It is NOT about individual sin or who is culpable for sin, etc. St. Paul is not saying that God cannot save someone from committing sin. He is saying that every person’s redemption, Jew and Gentile alike, is through the grace of God. Mary’s redemption was no different–it was through the grace of God in anticipation of the redemption Christ was to gain for all of us. This is why she called God her “savior” because he had saved her from committing sin and from the stain/wound of original sin. I hope that will help you. 🙂
 
  1. She is Ever-Virgin
  2. She was Immaculately Conceived
  3. She was assumed into heaven.
As I have said before, I now understand and appreciate Mary’s veneration as well as a host of other devotional elements concerning Mary within the Church. That was an awakening for me. But I have to agree with some here, and from what I have been reading, from Clement to Thomas Aquinas, that there is a tremendous amount of emotion in the arguments but little in the way of direct scriptural support (and that makes sense because, well, there really isn’t any). But you know what? All those arguments, all those references, and all those feelings together, are not contradictory and support the Scriptures in their entirety. They make sense. They work together. (In fact, just about the only divergence I can actually find was just when the Immaculate Conception was to have taken place not that it did not occur at all.)

All I’ve ever believed was that Mary was only special in that she was the mother of Jesus. But wait, that is saying a great deal, right? “just the mother of Jesus?!” I am finding that that means more to me than I had ever imagined it would.

Respectfully,
Thom
 
OldeThom said:
  1. She is Ever-Virgin
  2. She was Immaculately Conceived
  3. She was assumed into heaven.
As I have said before, I now understand and appreciate Mary’s veneration as well as a host of other devotional elements concerning Mary within the Church. That was an awakening for me. But I have to agree with some here, and from what I have been reading, from Clement to Thomas Aquinas, that there is a tremendous amount of emotion in the arguments but little in the way of direct scriptural support (and that makes sense because, well, there really isn’t any). But you know what? All those arguments, all those references, and all those feelings together, are not contradictory and support the Scriptures in their entirety. They make sense. They work together. (In fact, just about the only divergence I can actually find was just when the Immaculate Conception was to have taken place not that it did not occur at all.)
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That sums it up nicely. 🙂 Some of our Protestant brethren labor under the mistaken idea that everything we need to know about God and his relationship to us is explicitly spelled out in the Bible. Indeed, there are some Catholics who think this, too, having never been properly catechized and having been influenced by their Protestant friends/family.
All I’ve ever believed was that Mary was only special in that she was the mother of Jesus. But wait, that is saying a great deal, right? “just the mother of Jesus?!” I am finding that that means more to me than I had ever imagined it would.
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Respectfully,
Thom
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This is quite the personal revelation, isn’t it? It hit me like a two by four, too, when I first understood there was more to Mary than her womb. I have found in her a mother, a friend, an older sister, an example, and a prayer partner. I have learned to trust her intercession and her motherly care, which proceeds from the graces gained by her Son and given to us through her hands. Yup, she’s much more than a mere vessel.
 
Thom,
In our faith we practice ‘Lex orandi, lex credendi’. ‘The law of prayer is the law of belief’. Remember there were over 350 years of sacred tradition before there was a canon of scripture. The Church was already in full swing by the time the bible was put together as we know it today.

Our liturgies and traditions are what helped put together Sacred Scripture as we know it today. This is the bible that is so revered by our Protestant brothers and sisters. They just don’t like giving us any credit for it. It is similar to denying your ancestoral lineage and where you came from.

The traditions and beliefs were well in place for centuries and when ever any one disputed them, a council was convened to clarify the teaching.

Everything the Catholic Church teaches and believes has been there for a long time. Most anything that a non-Catholic disagrees with was most likely removed by one of the reformers or even latter day Protestants.
We didn’t add anything…they removed it.

There is so much more to being a Catholic and, I believe, that is why you became one.

God bless,

Danny C
 
Della said:
Your mil might not want to hear any explanations that disagreed with what she’s been taught, but if she ever does become open to listening you should emphasis the need to know the context of individual verses. The whole of Romans 3, from which the one verse is taken that she is referring to, is an argument for the consummation of the law in the grace of God made available through the sacrifice of Christ. It is NOT about individual sin or who is culpable for sin, etc. St. Paul is not saying that God cannot save someone from committing sin. He is saying that every person’s redemption, Jew and Gentile alike, is through the grace of God. Mary’s redemption was no different–it was through the grace of God in anticipation of the redemption Christ was to gain for all of us. This is why she called God her “savior” because he had saved her from committing sin and from the stain/wound of original sin. I hope that will help you. 🙂
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Thank you for sharing. Take care.

Bernardine Lee
 
Thank you Dannyc, most encouraging. But let me clarify: I am not a Catholic … yet. If you were to look at my pedigree, you might be surprised to find that I am even at this point in my life much less here on these forums :rolleyes: . Believe me when I say I am well aware of the relationship between worship and belief. However, there is much more here than just “disputed traditions that were removed”, that view can be applied to many of the world’s more famous schisms. No, for me the Catholic Church’s Tradition was little more than church history, two or three classes in college and a partridge and a pear tree (and anything “Mary” was rarely if ever discussed). 😉 Not to make light of Tradition as I now understand at this moment. Yes, there is much more to the devout Catholic than I knew and that is what I am discovering and enjoying. What I do know and believe, is that the ultimate authority is God, everything else flows downhill from there.

Respectfully,
Thom
 
Well Thom,
you stimulated quiet a thread on this subject.
It is always good to get the mind and the heart thinking and discerning.
And you never know, someday they might fall in sync with each other…but that requires quite a bit of submission to the will of God in our lives.

I have enjoyed the commentary and the responses immensely.

God be with you.

DannyC
 
One more thing Thom,

Don’t look at the RCIA as a class. We have always been taught that becoming Catholic is entering into a new way of life. It is a process and it will begin with your new small faith community of other inquirers.

It is unfortuante that the church that is offering RCIA for you does not meet year round. You may want to ask them why they do not.

The Holy Spirit is working in peoples lives all the time and He doesn’t take off during the summer.

I will pray that God leads you to where he wants you and where you belong.

Danny C
 
Hi Thom,

I came across this topic in CF’s Hot Topics e-mail. I am not able to read all of the replies and hope you don’t mind if that doesn’t stop me from chiming in.

I have a devotion to Mary’s Seven Sorrows. One of these sorrows is her meeting with Jesus on the road to Calvary. Every time I think of it, I thank God for giving Jesus a sinless mother. There Our Lord was, suffering for every single one of us, and He looks up and sees His mother - the only one who had never, ever offended Him. Who would deny Our Lord that comfort in His hour of tremendous suffering? What a good God we have, what a tremendous Father, that He gave a sinless mother to Jesus. So fitting, so glorious… the thought of it leads me to praise God for His goodness that goes beyond anything that we could have made up.

And I am glad for Jesus that there was that one person who was never, ever in the enemy’s camp. I am so glad for Him, and so grateful that God would have allowed one of our own race to be such a comfort to Him.

God bless you on your journey!
 
momof8 said:
Hi Thom,

I came across this topic in CF’s Hot Topics e-mail. I am not able to read all of the replies and hope you don’t mind if that doesn’t stop me from chiming in.

I have a devotion to Mary’s Seven Sorrows. One of these sorrows is her meeting with Jesus on the road to Calvary. Every time I think of it, I thank God for giving Jesus a sinless mother. There Our Lord was, suffering for every single one of us, and He looks up and sees His mother - the only one who had never, ever offended Him. Who would deny Our Lord that comfort in His hour of tremendous suffering? What a good God we have, what a tremendous Father, that He gave a sinless mother to Jesus. So fitting, so glorious… the thought of it leads me to praise God for His goodness that goes beyond anything that we could have made up.

And I am glad for Jesus that there was that one person who was never, ever in the enemy’s camp. I am so glad for Him, and so grateful that God would have allowed one of our own race to be such a comfort to Him.

God bless you on your journey!
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Dear Momof 8,

Thank you for sharing. I can truly appreciate your love & devotion to Our Lady of Sorrows. Take care & keep writing.

Bernardine Lee
 
My dear momof8 (oh my!) thank you for your kind and devotional words. But I must confess I have no idea what you just said, but I assure you I will look up Mary’s “Seven Sorrows” (I think I can pretty much guess what they might be).

A father’s heart is different from a mother’s heart in the way they see their children, but they complement and complete each other nonetheless. Just as God the Father and Mary, Mother of our Lord, must have complemented each other in their love and devotion to Jesus. I know what you are saying, to some small extent, because I know what I’d feel seeing one of my children in such pain and suffering. Then thinking of Jesus doing that for me I cannot escape thinking about it without weeping - always have, always will.

Quite honestly my feelings and theology are mixed on the Marian Doctrine. Since I have been thinking about it for some time I might as well say it: to me, at times, it seems as though the Marian dogma is really the Doctrine of Wishful Thinking. So forgive me if I have offended anyone by saying so. All the arguments, points and counter-points, reasons and appeals of man cannot convince me of it’s truth, only God can - to whom I pray daily for guidance, illumination, understanding and acceptance. A wonderful man of God once said, “It is as absurd to argue men, as to torture them, into believing.” You might have heard of him, John Henry Newman.

God is truly a tremendous Father to His children, I most heartily agree.

Respectfully,
Thom
 
Thom,
I am afraid that you are so far ahead of most of the RCIA inquirers that you will be joining next month that you may feel like you are in kindergarten.
What we always tell our candidates in RCIA when they have difficulty understanding or accepting a teaching of the Church, is to go before the Blessed Sacrament in a quiet contemplative setting, and let Jesus help you in your understanding.
Ultimately, He is the only one who will be able to settle this matter in your heart.

Don’t take a bible, don’t take a prayer book or rosary…just sit before Him and listen.

Let me know how it goes.

In all things, to Jesus through Mary,

Danny C
 
Hmmm is right VociMike :o I stressed over that all night and finally came to terms with it and hoped you’d all understand where was I am coming from by now and not take it personally. :banghead:

Dannyc - I have knelt and prayed in my church’s chapel at the Monstrance. I was encouraged by our deacon, a year ago today actually, to do just that. A very interesting and somewhat foreign experience, still is oddly enough, but after a year I am more comfortable with it and the Eucharist Host in general. I am still at a loss for words with regards to Mary. What keeps rattling around in my brain is why so many millions of people over the many centuries have given her so much praise? For me at least, it is a veiled mystery. However, the veil is lifting :clapping:

As for the RCIA class, yes I am a bit apprehensive about it as I certainly don’t want to cause anyone to despair or be a stumbling block on their own journey. But I am determined as I have always tried to approach this as a 2yr old anyway, so moving on to Kindergarten is a step in the right direction perhaps? 😉

Bare with me folks and thank you all for reading and responding with kindness and encouragement. 🙂

Respectfully,
Thom

PS - love those smiley thingys :cool:
 
OldeThom said:
Hmmm is right VociMike :o I stressed over that all night and finally came to terms with it and hoped you’d all understand where was I am coming from by now and not take it personally. :banghead:

Dannyc - I have knelt and prayed in my church’s chapel at the Monstrance. I was encouraged by our deacon, a year ago today actually, to do just that. A very interesting and somewhat foreign experience, still is oddly enough, but after a year I am more comfortable with it and the Eucharist Host in general. I am still at a loss for words with regards to Mary. What keeps rattling around in my brain is why so many millions of people over the many centuries have given her so much praise? For me at least, it is a veiled mystery. However, the veil is lifting :clapping:

As for the RCIA class, yes I am a bit apprehensive about it as I certainly don’t want to cause anyone to despair or be a stumbling block on their own journey. But I am determined as I have always tried to approach this as a 2yr old anyway, so moving on to Kindergarten is a step in the right direction perhaps? 😉

Bare with me folks and thank you all for reading and responding with kindness and encouragement. 🙂

Respectfully,
Thom

PS - love those smiley thingys :cool:
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You have a good, strong faith and a kind heart. May we all continue this faith journey together with a child-like trust. With a simple faith, God will show us so very much.
Code: 
    His ways are not our ways.  His understanding is more than we can fathom.  He gives us illuminations of divine truth but we only receive or perceive little bits and pieces at a time.  He is so great and wonderful!  Thank you Lord for calling us into the Christian life.
Take care.
 
Hey there Thom! Welcome and congratulations!!! RCIA is awesome! I went through it from 1995 to 1996. Best thing I ever said “yes” to.

You asked about Mary and requested short, “what I really think” answers so here’s mine - Adam and Eve were created by God sinless, yet they fell. Mary was created by God sinless, yet He preserved her from falling. He “saved” her at her conception, thus she acknowleges Him as her Savior in the Magnificat. God can create beings sinless, i.e. Adam and Eve and He can chose to preserve them if He wills, i.e. Mary. He is God and can do anything He wants. Omnipotent. Pretty simple, huh?!? So there you see, it was pretty painless.

I don’t know how deep you need to go into the theology of the Immaculate One before you determine your faith sufficent to accept Confirmation, perhaps a question for you and your Confessor, but there are plenty of good sources on her to read. Perhaps reading what the saints said about her in a prayerful way will help. Don’t rush yourself - Rome wasn’t built in a day!

Peace,

Gail
 
OldeThom said:
Hmmm is right VociMike :o I stressed over that all night and finally came to terms with it and hoped you’d all understand where was I am coming from by now and not take it personally. :banghead:
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Oh no, I don’t take it personally. I just brought it up because you as a Christian have already dealt with “outsiders” who think your beliefs are just Wishful Thinking. So you as a Christian understand that just because some article of the faith is seen by outsiders as Wishful Thinking doesn’t mean that it is, or that Christians don’t have good reasons to believe what they do.
 
o dear! I just went back and re-read the original question and decided you wanted a different answer. I’ll risk letting you see a little deeper in me…

I reasons I wanted to understand all about Mary in my pre-baptismal state of mind was simply I wanted to love her with the love God meant her to be loved with. I wanted to love her the way He loved her, if it was humanly possible and had no clue how because I was so ignorant of things Catholic. When I prayed to her I wanted it to please God. ummmm…the feelings I had at this time aren’t getting expressed right while I’m typing. It was a very deep thing for me to have her for my own Mother. It was one of the singular most incredibly moving experiences of my initiation in the Church. I finally had a Mom who loved me perfectly and her name was Mary. It just felt right letting her love me too! Jesus knew I needed her more than I did. He still does in fact.

Hope this is the answer you were looking for.

Peace,

Gail
 
GailMac said:
Hey there Thom! Welcome and congratulations!!! RCIA is awesome! I went through it from 1995 to 1996. Best thing I ever said “yes” to.

You asked about Mary and requested short, “what I really think” answers so here’s mine - Adam and Eve were created by God sinless, yet they fell. Mary was created by God sinless, yet He preserved her from falling. He “saved” her at her conception, thus she acknowleges Him as her Savior in the Magnificat. God can create beings sinless, i.e. Adam and Eve and He can chose to preserve them if He wills, i.e. Mary. He is God and can do anything He wants. Omnipotent. Pretty simple, huh?!? So there you see, it was pretty painless.

I don’t know how deep you need to go into the theology of the Immaculate One before you determine your faith sufficent to accept Confirmation, perhaps a question for you and your Confessor, but there are plenty of good sources on her to read. Perhaps reading what the saints said about her in a prayerful way will help. Don’t rush yourself - Rome wasn’t built in a day!

Peace,

Gail
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Thank you for sharing this. It really supports my faith. Take care!

Bernardine Lee
 
I am getting tired so I will make this quick and come back to it more tomorrow - but first THANK YOU GailMac! Such heart felt words and they did touch my heart! 🙂

I did not have a loving mother or grandmother, they were distant, cruel, selfish and very materialistic. I still hear the echoes of their voices calling me “bad boy” or “the devils little boy”. I do not have fond memories of them. As a result, my relationship with women have suffered over the years as well as my own self esteem - not an excuse (!) just reality. Now that my mother is ill and being taken care of by my sister (a true loving act of service!) I am mindful that I must love her despite my childhood memories.

I would love to have a mother like Mary and feel the way that you do … it just seems so distant, other-worldly and unobtainable.

Respectfully,
Thom
 
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