Thoughts on Mary: sinless

[Dannyc]

As far as the bible alone, I have always kind of wondered on what scripture the early church Father’s stood?
It wasn’t until the late 4th century that the canon of the bible was established as we know it today, so what did they do for 400 years? And it wasn’t for another 1200 years before we had enough bibles to go around so everyone could read them and interpret them privately.

It does seem to me that tradition played a very important role in the development of Christianity as we know it today.
I believe all Christians attest to the fact that St. Paul was beheaded, but I can’t find that anywhere in scripture.

I think the Word of God was being lived all those years and it developed through that way of life,
Of course the bible is the inherent Word of God, but what did they use back then??

Danny C

 

[VociMike]

…I was simply reminding our Baptist friend to get back to the foundation of the faith- Jesus Christ and His word.

Excellent advice. And it is only in the Catholic Church that the entire word of God is preserved, complete and unadulterated.

 

[chosensinner]

As far as the bible alone, I have always kind of wondered on what scripture the early church Father’s stood?
It wasn’t until the late 4th century that the canon of the bible was established as we know it today, so what did they do for 400 years? And it wasn’t for another 1200 years before we had enough bibles to go around so everyone could read them and interpret them privately.

It does seem to me that tradition played a very important role in the development of Christianity as we know it today.
I believe all Christians attest to the fact that St. Paul was beheaded, but I can’t find that anywhere in scripture.

I think the Word of God was being lived all those years and it developed through that way of life,
Of course the bible is the inherent Word of God, but what did they use back then??

Danny C

They used the epistles of Paul- that were copied and circulated. They also used the Old testament. I gave a huge list of fathers that spoke directly about the final authority of Scripture- so clearly they were under the impression that even if they had a single paragraph of Scripture- ALL that was being spread orally was to be tried according to the word of God they knew. If what was being taught was in violation of anything in that paragraph- then it was to be rejected. However, I get the funny feeling that these fathers had a lot more than single paragraphs, and probably contained most of Paul’s letters if not all of them. The General epistles were also in circulation and being copied daily- so we can’t pretend that these guys were making this stuff up.

Besides, did you know that by the end of the 3rd century (299AD.) every passage of the entire New Testament (as we know it today) had been quoted somewhere in the church father’s writings with the exception of six verses? So why then- if these ancient men were already in agreement about what was scripture- did we need some infallible teaching magistrate or council to tell us what was scripture and what was not?

Lastly- Protestants are not against Tradition- (though when the fathers spoke of the traditions- they were actually referring to the “written” traditions or the scriptures which were handed down by the apostles)

We only say that Scripture alone is unfallible- and inerrant- and that the Church and tradition must be subordinated to the scriptures in all points. If your tradition contradicts scripture- THEN it is to be rejected. We do not hate tradition- we have traditions too- though we are constandtly scrutinizing our traditions and testing them according to the word of God.

DO YOU DO THIS?

Hit me up on another thread about this topic- I dont want to clog this one up. I am on Sacred Scripture: “Protestants do not really believe in Sola Scriptura” - hope to hear from you!

 

[Eliza10]

Actually I already read Rome Sweet Home- and I read Karl Keatings book, Catholics and Fundamentalist. I also watch EWTN and pray for those people on The Journey Home- they have been decieved. I like Mitch Pacwa- he is a nice man- though he is lost in Rome. Believe me- I have done my fair share of research…

If you read Keating, then you are a hard nut to crack. And you certainly aren’t on this forum to learn anything. Unlike Thom.

Well I am not surprised. It reminds me of when I was a Bible-only Christian, and I worked with a very smart guy who considered himself an agnostic. He was well-read, too. I told him, “If you read the Bible, you will become a Christian.” I was floored when he said, “I read it.” He had. I learned something then. You can set a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. The truth will not be ingested by everyone it sits in front of. There are prejudices in place. People have their reasons for wearing their blinders. For some, its that they do not want to pay the price.

A friend of mine that had always been a mentor to me was furious when I became Catholic. I think part of it was: what could I, her pupil, have to teach her, the teacher. But mostly I think she had invested so much of herself in her self-explored education of her faith, and she was proud of it, and wanted to defend what she worked so hard to mine, unto death. Rather than open her mind to the truth. So I think sometimes its pride.

So these two examples from my own experience are why I am not surprised you have read Hahn.

…I was simply reminding our Baptist friend to get back to the foundation of the faith- Jesus Christ and His word.

You mean our Catholic friend?

I am claiming Thom for our side. He has a Catholic heart. And he is a truth-seeker. I say he’ll never be Baptist again.

:yup: Hi Thom.

Well, on the bright side, I present this fine man, who was willing to pay the price for truth:

…Best Criminal Defense Attorneys Pemberton, NJ | DUI Lawyer Near Me
…Cardinal Newman

 

[Lief_Erikson]

THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR OF WHAT- the Truth.

Yes and what is the design of a Pillar? Obviously to hold something up- right? Well if the Church is the pillar of the truth- then we ask : what is the truth? Jesus answers this question in John 17- “Thy word is truth.”

And he also says, “I am the truth.” And he also says he is the Word. So “Thy word is truth” could easily mean, “I am the truth.” On the other hand, “thy word is truth” could simply mean that everything God says is true. You see the kinds of interpretive issues passages can have when there’s no authority clearly distinguishing the correct meaning? Though that little fizzle over that verse is nothing compared to the major difficulties over doctrine that consume Protestantism. Those doctrinal differences are so large that thousands of denominations have resulted. They aren’t small enough that people feel they can be part of the same denomination in spite of the differences- the church fragments into many pieces. The Early Church did not endure such division. There were heretics, but they were proclaimed heretics and separated from the Body by excommunication throughout Early Church history. They were one body. They maintained that unity through a strict adherence to the teachings of the bishops, who in turn took their teaching from the bishops before them, and so on back to the first bishops, the original apostles. Ignatius and Irenaeus, among others, wrote very strongly about that, and Ignatius was one of the Apostle John’s own disciples. The Protestants threw submission to the tradition passed on by the bishop completely out the window when they left the Catholic Church.

As to pillars holding up the Word of God, I’d agree with that, and I’d say that Sacred Tradition is part of the words of God that this pillar holds up. It was throughout the history of the Early Church- the Bible canon was only settled in the late 5th century, and when it was settled, it was not the present day Protestant canon. Luther dumped books he didn’t agree with into an appendix, including Jude, Hebrews, Revelation and several others that almost all Protestants today accept. Later generations of Protestants put those books back, but they didn’t reintroduce the Deuterocanonical books, which were part of the Bible settled on in the councils of Rome, Carthage and Hippo.

In any case, I agree with you that the word of God is truth and therefore is a key part of what the Church supports, but that word, I believe, extends beyond the Bible.

So why do Catholics not simply hold up the word of God? Why all the inventions?

We do hold up the word of God. More of it than Protestants do, tragically. Protestants removed multiple books from the Bible, and they also removed Sacred Tradition, both of which are the words or teaching of God.

That is tragic. And I used to have been part of that, because I once was Protestant as well . Which is great, as it holds up so much of God’s teaching, but tragically it has a lot of gaps.

The “inventions” go straight back to the apostles. Many of them are in the Bible and only reinterpretations of the Bible by Protestant Reformers got rid of them, or the removal of books from the Bible that previously had been included.

I may respond to the rest later.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Bible does not contain everything that is true- but everything the Bible contains is true. And The written word is fully sufficient for sinners to receive eternal life- and be saved. This is biblical- and cannot be argued.

I’m curious. Where does the Bible say this? And where do you think that Catholics do not revere God’s Written Word?

 

[chosensinner]

If you read Keating, then you are a hard nut to crack. And you certainly aren’t on this forum to learn anything. Unlike Thom.

Well I am not surprised. It reminds me of when I was a Bible-only Christian, and I worked with a very smart guy who considered himself an agnostic. He was well-read, too. I told him, “If you read the Bible, you will become a Christian.” I was floored when he said, “I read it.” He had. I learned something then. You can set a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. The truth will not be ingested by everyone it sits in front of. There are prejudices in place. People have their reasons for wearing their blinders. For some, its that they do not want to pay the price.

A friend of mine that had always been a mentor to me was furious when I became Catholic. I think part of it was: what could I, her pupil, have to teach her, the teacher. But mostly I think she had invested so much of herself in her self-explored education of her faith, and she was proud of it, and wanted to defend what she worked so hard to mine, unto death. Rather than open her mind to the truth. So I think sometimes its pride.

So these two examples from my own experience are why I am not surprised you have read Hahn.

You mean our Catholic friend?

I am claiming Thom for our side. He has a Catholic heart. And he is a truth-seeker. I say he’ll never be Baptist again.

:yup: Hi Thom.

Well, on the bright side, I present this fine man, who was willing to pay the price for truth:

…Best Criminal Defense Attorneys Pemberton, NJ | DUI Lawyer Near Me
…Cardinal Newman

Yeah- I admit it, I am a hard nut to crack- but this is by the grace of God. I am not here to pretend to learn- for as I am beginning to see- curiosity does kill the cat! But my Master is the Lion of Judah- that great King of the world, and He is my fortress and my rear guard- He is my strong tower, so that none can overtake me.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Yeah- I admit it, I am a hard nut to crack- but this is by the grace of God. I am not here to pretend to learn- for as I am beginning to see- curiosity does kill the cat! But my Master is the Lion of Judah- that great King of the world, and He is my fortress and my rear guard- He is my strong tower, so that none can overtake me.

Something I learned when the Lord finally began to break through to me that Catholicism was true, was that the Lord has a lot of messages he wants to release to people, but they can be so set in their thinking about how God functions that they wouldn’t listen to or accept it if they heard it. So God is gracious enough to deal with people where they are. He doesn’t force-feed us glorious revelations we aren’t yet willing, ready or able to accept.

I really only came to start hearing his call toward Catholicism in a way I finally recognized as my God after he had created a feeling of spiritual hunger in me for many months, a yearning to experience more fully his kingdom. I began to pray, “Lord, please reveal to me more fully your kingdom.” It was then that the Lord began to show me incredible things.

 

[chosensinner]

I began to pray, “Lord, please reveal to me more fully your kingdom.” It was then that the Lord began to show me incredible things.

At any point during these glorious revelations, did the Lord
ever show you Exodus 20:4-6?

:bowdown: PICTURES! :bowdown: STATUES! :bowdown: THE POPE! :bowdown: MARY!

 

[Dannyc]

Chosensinner,
I’m back on this thread.
looks like we are heading for another thread about worshipping statues and bowing before idols.

It was sad when I walked into all of the Protestant Chruches in Geneva, that used to be Catholic before the Reformation and noticed how they threw out all of the beautiful artwork and statues that had been there for centuries. So here were all of these empty nooks and bare walls. Even the stained glass art was removed.

I felt like someone entered my house and took down all of the pictures of my family.

I think you know very well that Catholics do not worship idols.

It is no different than we hang pictures of our family and loved ones in our homes to remember them when they have left this world.
My grandmother, I believe, is in heaven with all of the other angels and saints, and I find comfort in knowing that she, Mary and all of my other holy relatives can continue to pray for me, becuase they are close to God. If I choose to get down on my knees and speak to them and look at an image of them while I am asking for their joint prayers, would it be any different than asking you, Chosensinner, to also pray for me, because I feel you are also close to God? Yet, you are only before me in a computer, with written words and images. I can’t see you or touch you, but to me, you are very real.

I ask for your prayers, Chosensinner, because I know you are a Godfearing person, who is close to Him and without a doubt, has his ear.

I would like to add you as one of my prayer partners, along with Mary, my grandmother and all the angels in saints in heaven.

Would that be OK?
I feel you would be in good company.

God bless,

DannyC

 

[Eliza10]

…He doesn’t force-feed us glorious revelations we aren’t yet willing, ready or able to accept…

Yes, willing being the operative word. He doesn’t violate our will.

… I really only came to start hearing his call toward Catholicism in a way I finally recognized as my God after he had created a feeling of spiritual hunger in me for many months, a yearning to experience more fully his kingdom. I began to pray, “Lord, please reveal to me more fully your kingdom.” It was then that the Lord began to show me incredible things.

Wow. An inspiring witness. God doesn’t violate our will, but He does have ways of influencing us.

Your story brings to mind this. If your word to God is to NOT show you any surprising truths about Catholicism because YOU ALREADY KNOW its all wrong - at least certainly things like statues, Saints, Popes, Sacred Tradition - then God will honor your will. He will not violate it.

But instead, if you go before God like a little child, and you say, God, these things certainly seem to me to be false. But who am and I? What do I know? I am just a baby. Show me what is true.

Then He is free to tell you. Because you have given Him your will. Because you come to Him like a little child.

Mary worshipping her Child:
…http://www.nationalgalleries.org/media_collection/6/NG 2709.jpg

 

[NotWorthy]

At any point during these glorious revelations, did the Lord
ever show you Exodus 20:4-6?

:bowdown: PICTURES! :bowdown: STATUES! :bowdown: THE POPE! :bowdown: MARY!

Ahhhh, we’ve gone there! What do you think of what the Lord then told the Israelites to do with the mounting of the serpent on the pole? The creation of the Ark of the Covenant? The building of the Temple?

Did the Lord lead the Israelites into the very idolatry that you seem to indicate that Catholics fall into?

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread derailed from topic and closed.
MF